NDK
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Post by NDK on Sept 20, 2016 14:01:54 GMT -5
It's not a jewelers torch (bernzomatic propane/oxygen), but I think I can make due. I twisted some 16ga square argentium wire last night and made each of my daughters a simple ring. The rings soldered easily... Now I want to order some sheet, bezel strip, etc to move forward. I've read here that copper is tougher to solder than silver. Is nickel "silver" any easier? The nickel is obviously much cheaper than sterling so I thought it may be a better alternative for practice. Thanks in advance for your help. Nate
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metalsmith
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Post by metalsmith on Sept 20, 2016 16:23:44 GMT -5
Well you're off to a great start. If you'll allow me to make a couple of observations with the aim of improving ...
Rule 1: whatever anyone says might be right or wrong depending on what you wanted to do / intended or like just how it turned out
With that in mind, I'm guessing you twisted a relatively short strip of wire. How do I know this? the length of the twists varies just a little incrementally telling me you were towards one end or the other with the strip used to make this ring. Using a section a little further away from the end would have greater consistency in twist-count, but increases wastage. A tip might be to anneal it, evenly before twisting.
Rule 2: whatever can be identified from a digital photo at several times the real scale might not be observable in person
You have done really well in matching the twists of the ring at the join. Noting Rule 2, there appears to be a short length where the ridge doesn't continue, at the solder join. Depending on how noticeable this is in person (not just the photo) and how good the fit is to that you intended, this could be re-sawn and re-joined, losing just a fraction (say 0.2 or 0.3 mm with a piercing saw). If the fits perfectly and / or the join is within your comfort zone leave it.
Rule 3: be your own worst critic
If the recipient / customer is happy, its job-done!
imho copper is the same as silver; it is the silver solder that does the job. In some ways it is easier as it won't melt if you 'torch it'.
Couldn't comment on nickel silver, I've no idea I'm afraid.
Hope this helps
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NDK
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Post by NDK on Sept 20, 2016 18:26:59 GMT -5
You hit the nail on the head on my twisting of the wire. After I cut it I thought I should have twisted it 1st, then cut.
Thanks for your insight, maybe I'll try some copper since I need to order nickel or sterling anyway.
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Post by toiv0 on Sept 20, 2016 20:31:50 GMT -5
On the small Argentium don't believe you need any solder as you can just fuse it pretty easily. Argentium is also a little trickier than regular sterling at least for me. I pretty much just use regular sterling, just my preference.
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Post by bobby1 on Sept 21, 2016 8:51:51 GMT -5
Nickle silver is harder to work with. It is a much harder metal so it doesn't want to bend easily. I don't use it because many people are allergic to nickle especially where it comes in contact with the skin in a moist environment such as a ring on your finger. Bob
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Post by rockjunquie on Sept 21, 2016 11:06:39 GMT -5
Ditto what Bobby said. It is hard stuff. I don't know about soldering it. You should look up the soldering temps for it. It's probably too high.
Copper is cheap, that's why it's good for practice. It's a little more difficult, too. So, when you get good at it, you know you'll do well with silver.
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metalsmith
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Post by metalsmith on Sept 21, 2016 12:23:20 GMT -5
You hit the nail on the head on my twisting of the wire. After I cut it I thought I should have twisted it 1st, then cut. Thanks for your insight, maybe I'll try some copper since I need to order nickel or sterling anyway. Yeah, any degree of stress work-hardens the metal. Cutting it will have hardened the wire closer to the cut more than further away - then leading to the phased difference.
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Post by fernwood on Sept 21, 2016 18:45:51 GMT -5
I have soldered both sterling and nickle silver. It is also called German Silver. Yes, the nickle is very hard to bend and requires a much higher temp. Also more difficult to file, if needed. I prefer the appearance of sterling. Con, is that sterling tarnishes much quicker. Nickle will take and keep a high gloss finish longer. Agree that many people have nickle allergies. Sterling is much softer and finished products bend easily, ie rings.
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NDK
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Post by NDK on Sept 21, 2016 19:33:40 GMT -5
Thanks for all your input folks. Sounds like the nickel is a bad idea for practice. I'm going to mess around with the copper I have and order some sterling... Stay tuned lol
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ol3m3
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Post by ol3m3 on Sept 21, 2016 22:35:36 GMT -5
Copper tends to oxidize much faster then sterling. When doing any soldering you will need a reducing flame or at the very least a neutral flame. A reducing flame has an excess of fuel over oxygen and you can tell this by the orangish tint to the outer cone of the flame. by having a reducing flame oxygen in the air is sheilded from the metal being soldered. you will also want to use flux which will clean the metal and aid in the flow of the solder and keep oxygen from the metal. Keep in mind when buying flux to get a fluorine free flux, which will keep you healthier. There is also a homemade flux called Pripps flux which is handy to prevent firescale formation, the entire pc is dipped in the flux which consists of borax, boric acid and Tri sodium phosphate, the recipe is found online,
Nickle silver aka German silver has no silver in it, It is technically a nickle bronze alloy, and many people have nickle allergys. never worked with the stuff so can not comment on how to work it.
T
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NDK
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Post by NDK on Sept 23, 2016 8:37:40 GMT -5
Ok, here's my first attempt. It's got hundreds of mistakes like the corner of the cab breaking, crooked bezel, crappy solder joins etc etc. But it was mainly for practice and was quite a learning experience. It's 24 ga copper and I used the sheet for the bezel strip too. I think that's too thick and contributed to my problems. Using a rectangular cab didn't help either. Next try will be round or oval. Critiques welcome. I have thick skin, so don't worry - you won't offend me lol.
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metalsmith
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Post by metalsmith on Sept 23, 2016 12:37:26 GMT -5
Ok, here's my first attempt. It's got hundreds of mistakes like the corner of the cab breaking, crooked bezel, crappy solder joins etc etc. But it was mainly for practice and was quite a learning experience. It's 24 ga copper and I used the sheet for the bezel strip too. I think that's too thick and contributed to my problems. Using a rectangular cab didn't help either. Next try will be round or oval. Critiques welcome. I have thick skin, so don't worry - you won't offend me lol. Remember that Rule 3 was to be your own worst critic. Or best, depending on how you view things. It is easy to criticise; harder to give feedback / suggestions. You've gone beyond criticising to consider what mistakes you've made and how you can learn from them. Job done.
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The Dad_Ohs
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Post by The Dad_Ohs on Sept 24, 2016 9:42:27 GMT -5
Copper is actually easier to work with than silver by virtue of the way it solders. When you solder with silver you are basically using the solder to fill a space and to hold the pieces together. Silver solder has to be heated to the point that it melts and allowed to flow into the joint.
Copper is easier in that when you heat the metal you just touch the solder to it and it will wick into the joint filling it completely. With silver you use the torch to move the molten solder around. With copper, once you've heated the object the solder with flow towards the torch so you don't have to move it around as much.
If you ever watch pipes being soldered you'll see that the heat is applied to the joint and then the solder is touched to it and as it melts it gets pulled into the joint until filled.
When doing a bezel with copper, the biggest issue is that the solder is a grey/silver color and tends to show, where as a silver solder joint should be invisible to the eye when done.
just my 2 centavos!!
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Post by rockjunquie on Sept 24, 2016 10:00:07 GMT -5
There are several steps to what you are doing. One is the soldering. You should concentrate on doing that well. 2nd is the setting and that is clearly where you are having the most trouble. When you are measuring for the bezel wire, make sure you are measuring the bottom of the stone, since that is going to be your longest dimension. Once you get that soldered down, it might be easier to set the stone. A good fit should go in pretty easy- no need to bust corners. From there, you want to work opposite sides of the bezel wire to get an even fit. The corners, of course, are trickier and another subjuct. Try some ovals, rounds and rounded corners for a while. Your frustration level will drop and your success rate will rise.
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Post by rockjunquie on Sept 24, 2016 10:13:32 GMT -5
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NDK
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Post by NDK on Sept 24, 2016 15:50:42 GMT -5
I've been pondering my mistakes & here's what I've come up with. I think the problem with the bezel being a little snug was I measured with a piece of paper (sticky part of a post-it). When I transferred the measurement to the copper I didn't take the thickness into consideration, so with the bends it ended up a bit shorter than I needed. I also made the bezel too tall, or didn't raise the stone up enough.
Another thing that threw me was how soft the metal is after annealing. Just tapping it with the plastic handle of my needle file left marks. Very surprising!
I'm busy all weekend so I'll get to my next piece in a few days. I'm going to cut a roundish cab and attempt to make a ring...
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metalsmith
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Post by metalsmith on Sept 25, 2016 7:40:21 GMT -5
For square corners, file a V-notch to 2/3 of the metal depth and the bends will be tidy; solder. As you note above, this needs consideration in the length of bezel / wire. Rounded or oval cabs are a good place to start. Square corners will wait for you to come back to.
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chassroc
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Post by chassroc on Oct 1, 2016 12:15:33 GMT -5
I've read here that copper is tougher to solder than silver. Is nickel "silver" any easier? The nickel is obviously much cheaper than sterling so I thought it may be a better alternative for practice.
Interesting...most smiths learn on copper rather than silver due to price and I feel it is very easy to solder, somewhat harder to clean up silver solder on copper. I generally patina my copper and it (color difference) is rarely an issue. It may be illegal (I dont recommend or condone illegal activity) but I've heard of people using pre (1982?) pennies for solder on copper successfully
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2016 9:54:18 GMT -5
I've read here that copper is tougher to solder than silver. Is nickel "silver" any easier? The nickel is obviously much cheaper than sterling so I thought it may be a better alternative for practice.
Interesting...most smiths learn on copper rather than silver due to price and I feel it is very easy to solder, somewhat harder to clean up silver solder on copper. I generally patina my copper and it (color difference) is rarely an issue. It may be illegal (I dont recommend or condone illegal activity) but I've heard of people using pre (1982?) pennies for solder on copper successfully Not illegal. Illegal to sell for melt value. Not illegal to transform for personal use. Like those penny smasher machines...
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Post by 1dave on Oct 14, 2016 14:54:55 GMT -5
Customers like to buy Sterling. Not so much the other metals. If the ring is a tad small, drive it down on your ring mandrel.
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