Post by huskeric on Mar 13, 2017 14:55:26 GMT -5
All-
I know this can probably be somewhat contentious, but I am wondering if maybe we can get a thread started here with some "best practices" for people starting out in the hobby related to how to spend their first $100, $200, $500, etc. in the hobby. I know that everyone is in a different place with the hobby, and willing/able to spend a very different amount. Additionally, they have different environment in which they can work (basement, garage, outdoors with just a little space, a lot of space, etc.).
I would guess that there are still probably some general guidelines on things that are "must have" and things which you should probably avoid at all costs, especially if you're just starting out in the hobby.
Please understand, I am still very much a novice, so I will add the disclaimer that these are just my own personal feelings, and they are here to give some of the pros/cons as I see them.
First, if you're new to the hobby, the obvious first choice would be a tumbler, but WHICH tumbler? The definitive answer is, "it depends."
1) What's your interest level? Are you just doing this to give your kids something to do, or have you always loved rocks and you can see this becoming a second career for yourself? Chances are, you're somewhere in between those two extremes, and that will dictate not only what tumbler will be best today, but also into the future. Also, back to budget, the tumbler is but one small cog in the wheel if you are going whole-hog on this hobby.
2) What's your budget? Like anywhere else, typically you get what you pay for. You need to balance what is the right size/brand with the amount you have to spend on the tumbler (and the hobby overall). I recommend that you look at this aspect pretty hard so that you don't get yourself down a rathole and continue throwing money that you didn't plan for at this hobby. (it's VERY easy to do) That leads us to...
3) What brand? There are three major segments in tumblers-
• Chicago Electric/off brand- To my original point, you get what you pay for. They make decent products, but the feedback I see on these is usually not "medium." It is either "I've been running mine for 37 years now, zero issues," or, "Worked for 10 minutes before it burst into flames." They are made cheaply with cheaper materials. If you are mechanically inclined (and can fix some of the easy stuff yourself) and/or it is the most you have to spend, then maybe this is the right brand for you. This isn't about brand snobbery, it's about economics and reliability.
• Lortone/Thumler- They both make what I would call the "gold standard" on tumblers, especially at the lower end. You may not see the difference when you look at the tumblers themselves, but under the covers, you will get a higher grade of componentry, better grade of materials and more durable barrels. If you're in for the long haul, I would invest here. If new is too rich for your blood, look for a used one that seems in good shape. If you are going to buy used, I do believe appearance matters. This is because keeping them in good nick isn't difficult, and if it's beat to hell, it either hasn't been maintained or if it has, it's just hitting the end of its useful life. I bought used, saved a few bucks, and then spent several more on a new motor, belts, and new shafts. It was a relatively cheap lesson, but hopefully I can save you.
• Homemade- If you're just starting, unless you are a really rare bird, I wouldn't probably start with a homemade solution, either one you build or one you buy second-hand. I say this because if you want to tumble rocks and not troubleshoot the tumbler, I strongly recommend a known commodity. There is SO much to learn just about tumbling correctly with a tried/true solution that adding the learning curve on a homemade rig adds so many other moving pieces into the mix that can complicate things and end in frustration. On top of that, the homemade solutions typically are much larger, and personally, I wouldn't go beyond 12lbs as a first tumbler. If you're fascinated by machines as much as by the finished products, you may fall into the segment that wouldn't be happy buying a tumbler, and if that's the case, I'm not going to try to talk you out of rolling your own.
4) What size? Size matters. you can start at 3 lbs and go up to 12 lbs with the mainstream solutions. Larger barrels have many positive attributes, so if you see yourself in this for the long haul, chances are you'll want the bigger rig anyway. If you can afford it, I would start with a single 6 lb Lortone. I say this specifically because it is middle-of-the-road in capacity/cost, and it uses a larger diameter barrel which (open to debate) delivers better results.
• Single 3 lb- Cheapest point of entry, if you don't see this going beyond a casual hobby, then this is the right solution for you. This can produce beautiful finished products, but it is also the single hardest way to get a good polish for a variety of reasons. I have retired my 3 lb tumblers. I have two of them, and I ultimately ran them into the ground. Rather than spend more on these, I am spending on the bigger guys.
• Dual 3 lb- Double your pleasure, but you're still on a small barrel. You can run different stages or different materials at the same time. Depending on what you buy, some of these have the ability to convert to a single 6 lb tumbler, which is probably where you'll end up on this device.
• Single 6 lb- This is a great middle solution if you see yourself maybe getting into the hobby more/deeper. I have a Thumler running a homemade PVC barrel, and it just runs happy as a clam. Again, with a time machine, I would have probably bought the Lortone, just because it offers the larger diameter barrel, and it has a 6+6 offering that can get you to a 12 barrel
• Dual 6 lb- All of the same benefits/drawbacks of the dual 3 lb, only bigger.
• Single 12 lb- This is my personal favorite. You can throw a LOT of rocks into this sucker, and let 'er rip. I have thought about running dual 6 lbers on this, but I have never not had another 25 lbs of something waiting in the wings to go into the tumbler next, so I like the volume aspect of this tumbler, and it is rock-solid.
OK, now that I've given a brief start on what tumbler, let's talk about the next thing to spend money on. I would say the next place to spend your money would be on accessorizing your tumbler. That means additional barrels, barrel lids, belts, machine oil and all of the stuff you will need to maintain it. Make sure you have at least one or two additional belts and the oil at a minimum. The extra barrels will allow you to keep one for each stage, which does help to prevent coarse grit from getting into your polish cycle (though if you run it until it's broken down completely, this is a non-issue) A few other things that you will need which you already have; a scrub brush, a couple of buckets (that you won't EVER need for anything else again), shop towels and at least one strainer. These aren't absolutely vital, but if you're going to really engage in this hobby, they will make your life simpler and cleaner. I would also recommend some storage totes/boxes for both rocks and supplies, just to keep things organized.
This also leads to grit and tumbling media. Your tumbler will come with JUST enough supplies to get you started. If you look on these boards, you will see that there are some BRILLIANT minds at work here trying out new stuff and different angles of approach to get good results. I would tell you that until you have run multiple batches, I would stick with the tried/true method described almost everywhere. Start with 60/90, then 120/220, 500, 1000 and then polish. That means you will need MORE of each of those. The Rock Shed is a very good one-stop shop for this hobby, and while you may find better prices here/there, it is unlikely that you will do much better, and the crew there is very good. How much more grit you need will depend largely upon how large your tumbler is and how much rock you have stockpiled since your decision to begin tumbling. I will tell you that it's cheap enough that I would take what you think and double it for your first order on the first two, and divide it in half for the 1000 and polish. This is relatively penalty-free, except that you might not have enough grit to start the next batch if you ordered too little. For tumbling media, I have run with ceramics and plastic. I prefer ceramics because they're just easier to work with on cleanout and you can reuse them more easily. There is certainly call for just plastics for some materials, which is beyond my skill level to discuss, but that again leads me back to "keep it simple to start out."
My next inclination was to buy 800 lbs of rough from eBay and elsewhere. If you do that, be sure you buy a helmet to protect your head when your spouse sees it all show up at your house. Seriously though, almost everyone on here will tell you to stick with agates/jaspers. That's because they're hard to screw up (literally). Because they are so hard, that means your initial stages will take longer to break down the stones to where you might want them, so I would get some books on tape about mediation and patience. Trust me there, if patience is not your strong suit, that will be the biggest point of failure for the tumbling process. Also, don't buy 800 lbs. Buy a few smallish batches and run them, then go pick some out of your yard, out of parking lots, go to a landscaping supplier, etc. Just look around you, and you will find some beautiful stuff right in front of your face. As you tumble a few more batches and get the hang of it, and you will probably gravitate toward the stuff you're interested in naturally. Plus, you'll see LOTS of good material come up on this site. I've purchased a half dozen or so boxes, and have been disappointed ZERO.
With the above, you have all of the components necessary to tumble rocks from beginning to end. From there, you start to go down the paths of "wants," IMHO, but some of these wants are very strong. However, just to get to there, you can already have anywhere from about $200 up to several hundred invested in this hobby. Based on my knowledge, which is admittedly limited, here are some of the other items you can add to your arsenal:
-Angle grinder and 4" diamond blade- This can be had for about $35. I bought a Porter-Cable off Amazon and a blade locally on clearance. This will allow you to do some rough pre-forming which will save you tumbling time (and grit). I have used mine for cutting material as well, but the blade is 1/8" thick and is like using a hatchet to do the job of a scalpel. If it's all you have, it's great, but there are MUCH better solutions for cutting.
-Wet saw/Tile saw- If you buy a tile saw, you can get this relatively cheaply, under $100 for the saw and a blade. I know MANY people on these boards have had this rig work out very well for them. I can't speak to the pros/cons of a tile saw vs. a lapidary saw. I have a lapidary slab saw I found on Craigslist, and it has been a champ for me. Again, the real value of this is in how involved you will ultimately become in the hobby, but especially if you get into either the large-diameter saws and/or the combo units that have grinding wheels, etc. on them, you go up the price ladder VERY quickly. Here you ABSOLUTELY get what you pay for, but you ABSOLUTELY pay for what you get.
-Vibratory tumbler- This is the one thing I wish I would have purchased straight away. I bought a Lot-O, but not for quite a few months, and this device really kept me in the hobby. I spent MONTHS tumbling to try to get a polish. Tumbling, re-tumbling, re-re-tumbling, you get the idea, and I FINALLY got one or two batches that looked good, but it was awful to get there. My first batch in the Lot-O, it took four days from stage 2 to polish, and they were jaw-dropping, at least compared with anything I'd done up to that point. The moral of that story is that you CAN get a really good polish with a rotary, but it will likely take you more iterations to get there, and each one has to run for a minimum of a week. If you have a Lot-O, you use significantly less grit and the immediate gratification you will feel is like crack. Plus, it's almost completely idiot-proof, take it from an idiot.
I'm sure there's more here that will come from others, but as far as my list, that should get you through the first six months or so of the hobby. From there, you will have enough knowledge built up that if you want to go down the path of a cabbing machine or something, you will be better-prepared (and maybe you will have saved some $$$ by not buying something else).
Please feel free to tack on to this and/or refute anything I say, except for the part about me being an idiot. I will fight that point to the death!
This is a great hobby, and these boards are a FANTASTIC resource to learn from and discuss things with some very smart, very passionate people. Have fun!
I know this can probably be somewhat contentious, but I am wondering if maybe we can get a thread started here with some "best practices" for people starting out in the hobby related to how to spend their first $100, $200, $500, etc. in the hobby. I know that everyone is in a different place with the hobby, and willing/able to spend a very different amount. Additionally, they have different environment in which they can work (basement, garage, outdoors with just a little space, a lot of space, etc.).
I would guess that there are still probably some general guidelines on things that are "must have" and things which you should probably avoid at all costs, especially if you're just starting out in the hobby.
Please understand, I am still very much a novice, so I will add the disclaimer that these are just my own personal feelings, and they are here to give some of the pros/cons as I see them.
First, if you're new to the hobby, the obvious first choice would be a tumbler, but WHICH tumbler? The definitive answer is, "it depends."
1) What's your interest level? Are you just doing this to give your kids something to do, or have you always loved rocks and you can see this becoming a second career for yourself? Chances are, you're somewhere in between those two extremes, and that will dictate not only what tumbler will be best today, but also into the future. Also, back to budget, the tumbler is but one small cog in the wheel if you are going whole-hog on this hobby.
2) What's your budget? Like anywhere else, typically you get what you pay for. You need to balance what is the right size/brand with the amount you have to spend on the tumbler (and the hobby overall). I recommend that you look at this aspect pretty hard so that you don't get yourself down a rathole and continue throwing money that you didn't plan for at this hobby. (it's VERY easy to do) That leads us to...
3) What brand? There are three major segments in tumblers-
• Chicago Electric/off brand- To my original point, you get what you pay for. They make decent products, but the feedback I see on these is usually not "medium." It is either "I've been running mine for 37 years now, zero issues," or, "Worked for 10 minutes before it burst into flames." They are made cheaply with cheaper materials. If you are mechanically inclined (and can fix some of the easy stuff yourself) and/or it is the most you have to spend, then maybe this is the right brand for you. This isn't about brand snobbery, it's about economics and reliability.
• Lortone/Thumler- They both make what I would call the "gold standard" on tumblers, especially at the lower end. You may not see the difference when you look at the tumblers themselves, but under the covers, you will get a higher grade of componentry, better grade of materials and more durable barrels. If you're in for the long haul, I would invest here. If new is too rich for your blood, look for a used one that seems in good shape. If you are going to buy used, I do believe appearance matters. This is because keeping them in good nick isn't difficult, and if it's beat to hell, it either hasn't been maintained or if it has, it's just hitting the end of its useful life. I bought used, saved a few bucks, and then spent several more on a new motor, belts, and new shafts. It was a relatively cheap lesson, but hopefully I can save you.
• Homemade- If you're just starting, unless you are a really rare bird, I wouldn't probably start with a homemade solution, either one you build or one you buy second-hand. I say this because if you want to tumble rocks and not troubleshoot the tumbler, I strongly recommend a known commodity. There is SO much to learn just about tumbling correctly with a tried/true solution that adding the learning curve on a homemade rig adds so many other moving pieces into the mix that can complicate things and end in frustration. On top of that, the homemade solutions typically are much larger, and personally, I wouldn't go beyond 12lbs as a first tumbler. If you're fascinated by machines as much as by the finished products, you may fall into the segment that wouldn't be happy buying a tumbler, and if that's the case, I'm not going to try to talk you out of rolling your own.
4) What size? Size matters. you can start at 3 lbs and go up to 12 lbs with the mainstream solutions. Larger barrels have many positive attributes, so if you see yourself in this for the long haul, chances are you'll want the bigger rig anyway. If you can afford it, I would start with a single 6 lb Lortone. I say this specifically because it is middle-of-the-road in capacity/cost, and it uses a larger diameter barrel which (open to debate) delivers better results.
• Single 3 lb- Cheapest point of entry, if you don't see this going beyond a casual hobby, then this is the right solution for you. This can produce beautiful finished products, but it is also the single hardest way to get a good polish for a variety of reasons. I have retired my 3 lb tumblers. I have two of them, and I ultimately ran them into the ground. Rather than spend more on these, I am spending on the bigger guys.
• Dual 3 lb- Double your pleasure, but you're still on a small barrel. You can run different stages or different materials at the same time. Depending on what you buy, some of these have the ability to convert to a single 6 lb tumbler, which is probably where you'll end up on this device.
• Single 6 lb- This is a great middle solution if you see yourself maybe getting into the hobby more/deeper. I have a Thumler running a homemade PVC barrel, and it just runs happy as a clam. Again, with a time machine, I would have probably bought the Lortone, just because it offers the larger diameter barrel, and it has a 6+6 offering that can get you to a 12 barrel
• Dual 6 lb- All of the same benefits/drawbacks of the dual 3 lb, only bigger.
• Single 12 lb- This is my personal favorite. You can throw a LOT of rocks into this sucker, and let 'er rip. I have thought about running dual 6 lbers on this, but I have never not had another 25 lbs of something waiting in the wings to go into the tumbler next, so I like the volume aspect of this tumbler, and it is rock-solid.
OK, now that I've given a brief start on what tumbler, let's talk about the next thing to spend money on. I would say the next place to spend your money would be on accessorizing your tumbler. That means additional barrels, barrel lids, belts, machine oil and all of the stuff you will need to maintain it. Make sure you have at least one or two additional belts and the oil at a minimum. The extra barrels will allow you to keep one for each stage, which does help to prevent coarse grit from getting into your polish cycle (though if you run it until it's broken down completely, this is a non-issue) A few other things that you will need which you already have; a scrub brush, a couple of buckets (that you won't EVER need for anything else again), shop towels and at least one strainer. These aren't absolutely vital, but if you're going to really engage in this hobby, they will make your life simpler and cleaner. I would also recommend some storage totes/boxes for both rocks and supplies, just to keep things organized.
This also leads to grit and tumbling media. Your tumbler will come with JUST enough supplies to get you started. If you look on these boards, you will see that there are some BRILLIANT minds at work here trying out new stuff and different angles of approach to get good results. I would tell you that until you have run multiple batches, I would stick with the tried/true method described almost everywhere. Start with 60/90, then 120/220, 500, 1000 and then polish. That means you will need MORE of each of those. The Rock Shed is a very good one-stop shop for this hobby, and while you may find better prices here/there, it is unlikely that you will do much better, and the crew there is very good. How much more grit you need will depend largely upon how large your tumbler is and how much rock you have stockpiled since your decision to begin tumbling. I will tell you that it's cheap enough that I would take what you think and double it for your first order on the first two, and divide it in half for the 1000 and polish. This is relatively penalty-free, except that you might not have enough grit to start the next batch if you ordered too little. For tumbling media, I have run with ceramics and plastic. I prefer ceramics because they're just easier to work with on cleanout and you can reuse them more easily. There is certainly call for just plastics for some materials, which is beyond my skill level to discuss, but that again leads me back to "keep it simple to start out."
My next inclination was to buy 800 lbs of rough from eBay and elsewhere. If you do that, be sure you buy a helmet to protect your head when your spouse sees it all show up at your house. Seriously though, almost everyone on here will tell you to stick with agates/jaspers. That's because they're hard to screw up (literally). Because they are so hard, that means your initial stages will take longer to break down the stones to where you might want them, so I would get some books on tape about mediation and patience. Trust me there, if patience is not your strong suit, that will be the biggest point of failure for the tumbling process. Also, don't buy 800 lbs. Buy a few smallish batches and run them, then go pick some out of your yard, out of parking lots, go to a landscaping supplier, etc. Just look around you, and you will find some beautiful stuff right in front of your face. As you tumble a few more batches and get the hang of it, and you will probably gravitate toward the stuff you're interested in naturally. Plus, you'll see LOTS of good material come up on this site. I've purchased a half dozen or so boxes, and have been disappointed ZERO.
With the above, you have all of the components necessary to tumble rocks from beginning to end. From there, you start to go down the paths of "wants," IMHO, but some of these wants are very strong. However, just to get to there, you can already have anywhere from about $200 up to several hundred invested in this hobby. Based on my knowledge, which is admittedly limited, here are some of the other items you can add to your arsenal:
-Angle grinder and 4" diamond blade- This can be had for about $35. I bought a Porter-Cable off Amazon and a blade locally on clearance. This will allow you to do some rough pre-forming which will save you tumbling time (and grit). I have used mine for cutting material as well, but the blade is 1/8" thick and is like using a hatchet to do the job of a scalpel. If it's all you have, it's great, but there are MUCH better solutions for cutting.
-Wet saw/Tile saw- If you buy a tile saw, you can get this relatively cheaply, under $100 for the saw and a blade. I know MANY people on these boards have had this rig work out very well for them. I can't speak to the pros/cons of a tile saw vs. a lapidary saw. I have a lapidary slab saw I found on Craigslist, and it has been a champ for me. Again, the real value of this is in how involved you will ultimately become in the hobby, but especially if you get into either the large-diameter saws and/or the combo units that have grinding wheels, etc. on them, you go up the price ladder VERY quickly. Here you ABSOLUTELY get what you pay for, but you ABSOLUTELY pay for what you get.
-Vibratory tumbler- This is the one thing I wish I would have purchased straight away. I bought a Lot-O, but not for quite a few months, and this device really kept me in the hobby. I spent MONTHS tumbling to try to get a polish. Tumbling, re-tumbling, re-re-tumbling, you get the idea, and I FINALLY got one or two batches that looked good, but it was awful to get there. My first batch in the Lot-O, it took four days from stage 2 to polish, and they were jaw-dropping, at least compared with anything I'd done up to that point. The moral of that story is that you CAN get a really good polish with a rotary, but it will likely take you more iterations to get there, and each one has to run for a minimum of a week. If you have a Lot-O, you use significantly less grit and the immediate gratification you will feel is like crack. Plus, it's almost completely idiot-proof, take it from an idiot.
I'm sure there's more here that will come from others, but as far as my list, that should get you through the first six months or so of the hobby. From there, you will have enough knowledge built up that if you want to go down the path of a cabbing machine or something, you will be better-prepared (and maybe you will have saved some $$$ by not buying something else).
Please feel free to tack on to this and/or refute anything I say, except for the part about me being an idiot. I will fight that point to the death!
This is a great hobby, and these boards are a FANTASTIC resource to learn from and discuss things with some very smart, very passionate people. Have fun!