jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Sept 17, 2017 17:34:17 GMT -5
I was mowing thru with this design. I had parts laying around and feel that vibrating equipment is hard to predict it's behavior. So I finished. I am certain I either need more counterbalance and/or more RPM as the rocks move too slow. But am open to ideas. And have not really thought about the comments made in detail as the design already had momentum. I will go back and see what suggestions were made. The base system can easily be modified. Here is what the finished product looks like. I will do a video of performance.
|
|
|
Post by HankRocks on Sept 17, 2017 17:47:29 GMT -5
I don't believe that movement of the rocks is vital to the performance. With my Lortone FL20, the 80, 220 and 600 SiC stages there is very little rock movement. It's not until I put them on the carpet lined polishing pan that they begin to move around in a counter-clockwise direction. In my opinion it's the vibrational movement of the pan under the rock that is more important during the grinding stages. I suppose you would get more vibrations with a high rpm motor. I also think 80 grit is as coarse as you want to go, again my opinion. Henry
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Sept 17, 2017 18:32:38 GMT -5
Video
Runs quiet, camera is noise sensitive actually accentuates noise. Rock running dry.
Going from 1040 RPM and 1/6 HP and about 4 ounces spread out over 3 inches of counterbalance to 1725 RPM and 1/3 HP and a bit more counterbalance should give enough action. Nothing was bouncing. Vibration seems to all in the polishing plane, a big concern. Moving pan + motor is 38 pounds.
Rocks could pile up. May walk uphill, may walk down hill, may get caught around the perimeter. As long as the are sliding and rotating in some form of rotational movement it should polish.
Totally a guess on the vibratory action, not engineered. I am not trained at vibration analysis. If this one is made to polish well it can be easily duplicated.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Sept 17, 2017 18:35:14 GMT -5
I don't believe that movement of the rocks is vital to the performance. With my Lortone FL20, the 80, 220 and 600 SiC stages there is very little rock movement. It's not until I put them on the carpet lined polishing pan that they begin to move around in a counter-clockwise direction. In my opinion it's the vibrational movement of the pan under the rock that is more important during the grinding stages. I suppose you would get more vibrations with a high rpm motor. I also think 80 grit is as coarse as you want to go, again my opinion. Henry I was curious how much 'back and forth' distance is required Henry. I have never seen one run. Maybe you can look at the video and give an idea if it is enough.
|
|
|
Post by HankRocks on Sept 17, 2017 19:02:00 GMT -5
Difficult to know running dry, maybe add some grit and water and see how the move looks and sounds. You will not need much grit. I have never used a grooved pan so not sure if there are any special conditions with one. Henry
|
|
|
Post by captbob on Sept 17, 2017 21:38:04 GMT -5
Intrigued.
Agree with Henry, add some water and a little grit to get truer motion. Dry is different action. Rocks will hydroplane on the water/grit slurry.
On mine, the rocks spin in circles. Kinda quickly, like 10-20 rotations a minute, depending on weight. And they move all around the pan. Like an ice skater doing laps on a circular rink. Rotating and running circles around the pan at the same time. Will bunch up on one side if pan is not level.
My concern was/is the weight the springs will support. They gonna hold up the pan, slurry (minimal weight), the motor and a full load of rocks without the hooks bending out? May need beefier springs?
Nicely done. And fast too!
|
|
|
Post by fantastic5 on Sept 18, 2017 8:22:40 GMT -5
jamesp you da'man!!!! On Friday I sent Jim a PM with a couple of videos asking for his expertise. Didn't get a chance to visit RTH on Sunday, and found this amazing build in progress today. Just sitting at my desk on a Monday morning with this silly grin on my face. You made my day week, no...made my year! You're awesome!!! When I was cleaning out the garage on Sunday I found an old table saw base. It may end up being my frame. Will have to see how it matches up. Otherwise I have plenty of spare wood from the remodel that I can grab.
|
|
|
Post by fantastic5 on Sept 18, 2017 8:33:05 GMT -5
I don't believe that movement of the rocks is vital to the performance. With my Lortone FL20, the 80, 220 and 600 SiC stages there is very little rock movement. It's not until I put them on the carpet lined polishing pan that they begin to move around in a counter-clockwise direction. In my opinion it's the vibrational movement of the pan under the rock that is more important during the grinding stages. I suppose you would get more vibrations with a high rpm motor. I also think 80 grit is as coarse as you want to go, again my opinion. Henry I was told by an acquaintance that he uses the 3M pads for floor polishing machines in his vibrating flat lap. Actually, he was going to sell me his lap this spring, but I only recently found out that he has passed away during the winter and his wife had already sold it (sadly, I thought he was ignoring my emails). Do you think that would that work for the polish step? He had told me that he runs his dry, but I also found out that it was possible silicosis that took him, so that makes me very nervous. Any advice about the polish step would me most appreciated.
|
|
|
Post by fantastic5 on Sept 18, 2017 8:44:41 GMT -5
I don't believe that movement of the rocks is vital to the performance. With my Lortone FL20, the 80, 220 and 600 SiC stages there is very little rock movement. It's not until I put them on the carpet lined polishing pan that they begin to move around in a counter-clockwise direction. In my opinion it's the vibrational movement of the pan under the rock that is more important during the grinding stages. I suppose you would get more vibrations with a high rpm motor. I also think 80 grit is as coarse as you want to go, again my opinion. Henry I was told by an acquaintance that he uses the 3M pads for floor polishing machines in his vibrating flat lap. Actually, he was going to sell me his lap this spring, but I only recently found out that he has passed away during the winter and his wife had already sold it (sadly, I thought he was ignoring my emails). Do you think that would that work for the polish step? He had told me that he runs his dry, but I also found out that it was possible silicosis that took him, so that makes me very nervous. Any advice about the polish step would me most appreciated. Something like this? Diamondblades4us Diamond Impregnated Burnishing Roll-X Pad (24-inch, 3000 Grit)
|
|
|
Post by HankRocks on Sept 18, 2017 9:22:07 GMT -5
Don't see any reason that this would not work although I would add water. Don't like anything running dry, keeps any dust surpressed if nothing else. I have been using indoor outdoor carpeting cut to fit with Micro-Alumnia. Bought a two foot wide by 10 foot cut off the roll at Lowes that will make me about 6 or 7 pads. The first pad wore out in about 7 months. Agree with Captbob that the springs may need to be beefed up. My typical run can have up to 20 lbs or more of rock that will add to stress on the springs. With your design that should be an easy swap to make if it becomes an issue.
Henry
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Sept 18, 2017 9:25:27 GMT -5
Difficult to know running dry, maybe add some grit and water and see how the move looks and sounds. You will not need much grit. I have never used a grooved pan so not sure if there are any special conditions with one. Henry I doubt the grooves make much difference Henry. As long as the rocks are moving I suppose work is being done. Given a choice, I prefer this unit to move the rocks around at the speed that captbob's machine does. I figure the more scrubbing action the more the rocks walk around. In his case circles, 10-20 times per minute. Some design mechanical engineer designed it for that action. Mine is totally a crap shoot. It may get the job done. In any case I had a great time building it, and will have fun tinkering with it. I was not going to be surprised if it failed and do not really care. But if i get it to work it would make a perfect budget home built. That would excite me.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Sept 18, 2017 9:37:53 GMT -5
Intrigued. Agree with Henry, add some water and a little grit to get truer motion. Dry is different action. Rocks will hydroplane on the water/grit slurry. On mine, the rocks spin in circles. Kinda quickly, like 10-20 rotations a minute, depending on weight. And they move all around the pan. Like an ice skater doing laps on a circular rink. Rotating and running circles around the pan at the same time. Will bunch up on one side if pan is not level. My concern was/is the weight the springs will support. They gonna hold up the pan, slurry (minimal weight), the motor and a full load of rocks without the hooks bending out? May need beefier springs? Nicely done. And fast too! Done fast because the perfect tools and parts were there for it. I really like those steel pans. They are dead flat. Can be welded directly to without warping. 27" costs $33. 42 and 49 inch costs about $55 and $80. All sizes in-between. I can get them 12 feet in diameter ! Let's build a 12 footer for the front yard and really get an excited spouse. I get the springs and rigid levelers. I just happened to have those springs in the junk pile. I was not so concerned about the level, main concern was good vibratory action. I had 7 hours in it, was cutting corners. I get the wetness, like you said it hydroplanes the rocks. Will first get a 1/3 HP 1725 RPM and stick it on to see if that helps things out with the vibration. That 1040 RPM motor is real slow. At this point it can be thrown in the scrap pile and little loss.
|
|
|
Post by captbob on Sept 18, 2017 9:39:04 GMT -5
You recall roy 's machine? He has a motor above which runs a sweep in the pan to move the rocks. Not even sure the unit would have to vibrate then, as it would work like a flat lap. But the rocks can be left unattended to do their thing. Need to see pics of his machine. Makes me smile every time I see it. Think woodman has a similar set up. (?)
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Sept 18, 2017 9:52:38 GMT -5
jamesp you da'man!!!! On Friday I sent Jim a PM with a couple of videos asking for his expertise. Didn't get a chance to visit RTH on Sunday, and found this amazing build in progress today. Just sitting at my desk on a Monday morning with this silly grin on my face. You made my day week, no...made my year! You're awesome!!! When I was cleaning out the garage on Sunday I found an old table saw base. It may end up being my frame. Will have to see how it matches up. Otherwise I have plenty of spare wood from the remodel that I can grab. I wouldn't get too excited yet Ann. That thing is way down in the prototype steps. If you see one on Craig's List at a good price I would jump on it. If i get this one working it is yours. I am just learning. It is the educational part that is valuable. Got the stuff to make more of them should it do well. Funny, I had a table saw table frame that was 30" X 24". Thought it was gonna work till I measured the 24 inch side, too short. But 30" X 30" works perfect for the 27 inch pan. My 24 inch pans had a depressed relief around the perimeter and I did not like it. when I think of a vibrational machine in the old days I think heavy cast iron monsters. Not required, but with vibration comes off balance of some form. Said vibration can require super heavy construction. rockpickerforever purchased this machine for $30 used. My God, the old school guy were super mathematicians and knew vibration analysis. they could cast a monster like this and tell you exactly what it was going to do by performing the complicated math. This is a very expensive machine to make. It would equate to a Vibrasonic tumbler in terms of old school design. Man I sure would like to have one just like it. This one: www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=220715872Do you have one of these Henry ? captbob ?
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Sept 18, 2017 10:05:45 GMT -5
I was told by an acquaintance that he uses the 3M pads for floor polishing machines in his vibrating flat lap. Actually, he was going to sell me his lap this spring, but I only recently found out that he has passed away during the winter and his wife had already sold it (sadly, I thought he was ignoring my emails). Do you think that would that work for the polish step? He had told me that he runs his dry, but I also found out that it was possible silicosis that took him, so that makes me very nervous. Any advice about the polish step would me most appreciated. Something like this? Diamondblades4us Diamond Impregnated Burnishing Roll-X Pad (24-inch, 3000 Grit)These pads fascinate me. I want to talk to you about these. Read the service duty of these monsters. they are rated for like 40,000 sq. ft. of concrete floor. amazing Commonly sold in 200-400-800-1500-final polish.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Sept 18, 2017 10:07:09 GMT -5
You recall roy 's machine? He has a motor above which runs a sweep in the pan to move the rocks. Not even sure the unit would have to vibrate then, as it would work like a flat lap. But the rocks can be left unattended to do their thing. Need to see pics of his machine. Makes me smile every time I see it. Think woodman has a similar set up. (?) Aware of these beasts Bob. I am certain they don't vibrate. But are killer giant slab polishers. they are within the realm of my fabrication skills. wish I had a 48 inch saw to make the slabs they will polish.
|
|
|
Post by fantastic5 on Sept 18, 2017 10:45:37 GMT -5
These pads fascinate me. I want to talk to you about these. Read the service duty of these monsters. they are rated for like 40,000 sq. ft. of concrete floor. amazing Commonly sold in 200-400-800-1500-final polish. I don't know much, except that Will (TNAgate Man) had told me that he likes to run his through all the stages dry, using only a series of these pads. He called his vibrating lap a 'dry screen'. It is what he used to polish all his paint rock slabs on. Said it was the easiest and far cheapest way to get a high gloss shine on the slabs. I so wish I could talk to him more about this. You always think you have time to learn from people, until you don't. I'll go back and see if I can find the emails about this.
|
|
|
Post by captbob on Sept 18, 2017 11:12:51 GMT -5
Jim, I have a Highland Park 27" machine and then 3 Raytech 15" Hustler units. Although, one of the Raytech machines is brand new in box - so I only use 2 of those. The new one I can sell someday for 3x what I picked it up for. I believe Roy's machine is a 27" vibrating lap. Just has the sweep to speed things up. (?) roy Polishes "regular" sized rocks & slabs. I want to build one of those sweeps sometime. Looks easy enough to do.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Sept 18, 2017 11:53:55 GMT -5
These pads fascinate me. I want to talk to you about these. Read the service duty of these monsters. they are rated for like 40,000 sq. ft. of concrete floor. amazing Commonly sold in 200-400-800-1500-final polish. I don't know much, except that Will (TNAgate Man) had told me that he likes to run his through all the stages dry, using only a series of these pads. He called his vibrating lap a 'dry screen'. It is what he used to polish all his paint rock slabs on. Said it was the easiest and far cheapest way to get a high gloss shine on the slabs. I so wish I could talk to him more about this. You always think you have time to learn from people, until you don't. I'll go back and see if I can find the emails about this. I knew an old timer that did dry lapping at high speeds. He used a floor buffer pad. And he had serious lung problems. He too died of what they thought was silicon dust damage to his lungs. He could polish stone as soft a malachite with it. He was very talented old school lapidarian. It did the polish overnight, but made a lot of dust. If you get photos let me know, I have photos of Mr Burkes machine somewhere. I would recognize the design. It required you to put the rocks in rotating circles and the rocks rotated around an apron but slipped on the buffer pad. Hard to explain. It was revolutionary. I posted photos on this forum and no one recognized the design. It sounds like your friend was using diamond floor pads. A whole new ballgame. Curious to see how he did that.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Sept 18, 2017 12:00:34 GMT -5
Jim, I have a Highland Park 27" machine and then 3 Raytech 15" Hustler units. Although, one of the Raytech machines is brand new in box - so I only use 2 of those. The new one I can sell someday for 3x what I picked it up for. I believe Roy's machine is a 27" vibrating lap. Just has the sweep to speed things up. (?) roy Polishes "regular" sized rocks & slabs. I want to build one of those sweeps sometime. Looks easy enough to do. Well no need to get any more via laps for Bob. check out this Oregon guy's shop. Are these the laps you call a sweep ? Also check out his slabs. Wow. www.sticks-in-stones.com/rockshop/index.htmlLooks like he has been importing large pet wood slabs from China too. $5000 slabs, gracious. I noticed they lap polish imported pieces too. perhaps buy large slabs and then do the finish work themselves. I really am impressed with his laps.
|
|