jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 22, 2017 4:06:13 GMT -5
The soft garnet 300 laid a polish down on the obsidian in 2.5 days. Not the best polish, but darn good. The goal was to go from coarse finish to maximum polish with a softer abrasive. 2PM Monday 2.5 days Intentionally ran it 2 days longer and noticed tiny frost marks developing barely visible with naked eye. Using lighting from the side at a sharp angle to show the tiny frost marks. No improvement on polish. Appears to be a loss of polish due to the tiny frosting. Next step is to find an even softer abrasive to eliminate the need for hard media and long run times for obsidian and softer rocks in general. Pumice too soft and garnet too hard for obsidian. Pumice may work on a load of fluorite with out hard media. May try fluorite with pumice with smaller glass media to prolong it's breakdown time. Talking tumbled glass media less than/equal to 3/8". Procedure would be to run polished fluorite for 2 hours in vibe with AO 80 to rough up surface. clean out. Then run pumice grade 0-1/2 with the small glass media. May be a fast polish. Will sample that one every couple of hours.
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Post by gmitch067 on Oct 22, 2017 10:25:02 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing your experimentation of the different softer grits Jamesp. I currently have a batch of Apache Tears in my UV-18 (at 600 grit SiC with 50/50 rock and ceramics). I also have a batch of Mahogany Obsidian going (QT66 at 80 grit SiC - until smooth).
I intend to wait until you see your results before advancing either load any further... VERY Interesting!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 22, 2017 17:30:18 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing your experimentation of the different softer grits Jamesp. I currently have a batch of Apache Tears in my UV-18 (at 600 grit SiC with 50/50 rock and ceramics). I also have a batch of Mahogany Obsidian going (QT66 at 80 grit SiC - until smooth). I intend to wait until you see your results before advancing either load any further... VERY Interesting! What size are the obsidians Mitch ?
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Post by gmitch067 on Oct 22, 2017 18:24:14 GMT -5
I have them broken down to around 1 - 1 1/2" and in the first tumble. My original intent was to include them with the Apache Tears, but there was too much a size difference - so I split the loads. There were not enough Mahogany Obsidian to fill the QT6 drum, so I added some colored glass from The Rock Shed.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 22, 2017 18:30:28 GMT -5
Larger than that is prone to bruises in the finishing stages. Any size is prone to bruising though, just worse with bigger pieces. Let me know how the tears turnout. I presume they are smaller ?
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Post by gmitch067 on Oct 22, 2017 18:51:38 GMT -5
The largest tears are about 3/4 inch (mainly Snowflake Obsidian) - but most are 1/4 to 1/2 inch (black - no noticeable internal patterns). I hand wash each and brush them with a soft bristle toothbrush. There must be over a hundred++ of the little suckers, so my calm meditative sessions are quickly turning into pure tedium. LOL!
I was intending to continue them in 600 grit for 48 hours, and then another 48 hours in 1200 grit graded SiC. Before reading your threads about softer polishes, I had intended advancing them to 48 hour in Tin Oxide polish with a couple of TBS Borax.
Now... I want to see what you determine in this thread... It might change my own course of action.
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Post by HankRocks on Oct 22, 2017 19:08:09 GMT -5
For our "stretching the heck out of the envelope" guy
It's Alive
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Post by HankRocks on Oct 22, 2017 19:11:46 GMT -5
one more time...if it does not work... I give up It's alive
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 23, 2017 2:39:44 GMT -5
The largest tears are about 3/4 inch (mainly Snowflake Obsidian) - but most are 1/4 to 1/2 inch (black - no noticeable internal patterns). I hand wash each and brush them with a soft bristle toothbrush. There must be over a hundred++ of the little suckers, so my calm meditative sessions are quickly turning into pure tedium. LOL! I was intending to continue them in 600 grit for 48 hours, and then another 48 hours in 1200 grit graded SiC. Before reading your threads about softer polishes, I had intended advancing them to 48 hour in Tin Oxide polish with a couple of TBS Borax. Now... I want to see what you determine in this thread... It might change my own course of action. Early to tell Mitch. But the initial thoughts is that the garnet 300/AO 14,000 mix made a decent polish straight from the rotary with minimum frost damage. Using my machine which is not the best machine for obsidian. It tends to frost on prolonged runs like 2 days each in 500 to 1000 to 14,000. Whether or not the pumice is needed is yet to be seen. Pumice does add thickness though. Only ran the garnet 300/AO 14,000 mix one time with obsidian so I need to run more batches before conclusions. But it was my best success with obsidian so far. I ran into tiny frost issues with 1 and 2 pound agates in the vibe when I leave them in AO 14,000 in the vibe longer than 12 to 18 hours. Polish gets better and better till hour 12 to 18, then something goes south with the slurry or the abrasive and the polish declines running longer than 12 to 18 hours. Got no answers why and don't really care because the 18 hour polish recipe works repeatedly on the big agates which is the goal. Keep in mind those big rocks are run by themselves with only small stones.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 23, 2017 2:43:02 GMT -5
one more time...if it does not work... I give up It's aliveand well
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 23, 2017 2:53:11 GMT -5
gmitch067You can chunk the tears in the vibe and run them in say a spoon or two of 220 for a day to clean them to avoid the hand cleaning. dirty coral on left tumbled a couple of days in the rotary to clean it on right
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Post by gmitch067 on Oct 23, 2017 9:16:36 GMT -5
Early to tell Mitch. But the initial thoughts is that the garnet 300/AO 14,000 mix made a decent polish straight from the rotary with minimum frost damage. Using my machine which is not the best machine for obsidian. It tends to frost on prolonged runs like 2 days each in 500 to 1000 to 14,000. Whether or not the pumice is needed is yet to be seen. Pumice does add thickness though. Only ran the garnet 300/AO 14,000 mix one time with obsidian so I need to run more batches before conclusions. But it was my best success with obsidian so far. I ran into tiny frost issues with 1 and 2 pound agates in the vibe when I leave them in AO 14,000 in the vibe longer than 12 to 18 hours. Polish gets better and better till hour 12 to 18, then something goes south with the slurry or the abrasive and the polish declines running longer than 12 to 18 hours. Got no answers why and don't really care because the 18 hour polish recipe works repeatedly on the big agates which is the goal. Keep in mind those big rocks are run by themselves with only small stones. Today I am shifting the Apache Tears in my UV-18 from 48 hours in the 600 grit SiC to the 1200 grit SiC (50/50 rock and ceramic mix). After reading this thread, I will shorten the vibe time for 1200 grit down from 48 hours to 24 hours. I will shorten the polish stage from 48 hours to 12 hours and check to see the results. I do not have any pumice. I'll have to order some from HisGlassworks.com and give it a try to better my slurry for future 600 and 1200 grit stages... BUT... won't adding pumice to the AO 14,000 polish stage be bad (I have always been told to not mix different polishes in the same load).I am not sure that the AO polish that I received from The Rock Shed the other day counts as AO 14,000, but I'll give it a whirl! Thank you JamesP Glenn
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 23, 2017 10:23:06 GMT -5
Early to tell Mitch. But the initial thoughts is that the garnet 300/AO 14,000 mix made a decent polish straight from the rotary with minimum frost damage. Using my machine which is not the best machine for obsidian. It tends to frost on prolonged runs like 2 days each in 500 to 1000 to 14,000. Whether or not the pumice is needed is yet to be seen. Pumice does add thickness though. Only ran the garnet 300/AO 14,000 mix one time with obsidian so I need to run more batches before conclusions. But it was my best success with obsidian so far. I ran into tiny frost issues with 1 and 2 pound agates in the vibe when I leave them in AO 14,000 in the vibe longer than 12 to 18 hours. Polish gets better and better till hour 12 to 18, then something goes south with the slurry or the abrasive and the polish declines running longer than 12 to 18 hours. Got no answers why and don't really care because the 18 hour polish recipe works repeatedly on the big agates which is the goal. Keep in mind those big rocks are run by themselves with only small stones. Today I am shifting the Apache Tears in my UV-18 from 48 hours in the 600 grit SiC to the 1200 grit SiC (50/50 rock and ceramic mix). After reading this thread, I will shorten the vibe time for 1200 grit down from 48 hours to 24 hours. I will shorten the polish stage from 48 hours to 12 hours and check to see the results. I do not have any pumice. I'll have to order some from HisGlassworks.com and give it a try to better my slurry for future 600 and 1200 grit stages... BUT... won't adding pumice to the AO 14,000 polish stage be bad (I have always been told to not mix different polishes in the same load).I am not sure that the AO polish that I received from The Rock Shed the other day counts as AO 14,000, but I'll give it a whirl! Thank you JamesP Glenn No no. don't shorten those 48 hour run times for hard grit like SiC. You need to run those Mohs 9+ abrasives a long time to break them down each for each transition to the next abrasive. I think that would be a mistake. That is the conflict with soft rock and overly hard abrasive in an overly aggressive vibe that adds frost marks along the way. frost marks accumulate, fine abrasives cannot remove them. This is the exact reason I am experimenting with the softer Mohs 7.5 garnet abrasive. Using SiC and aluminum oxide on obsidian IMO is like using a sledge hammer on a fly. The Mohs 7.5 garnet is softer yet it still cuts the Mohs 5.5 obsidian like butter. No problem there. But the garnet breaks down into finer abrasive much faster than AO/SiC. On the other end of the spectrum, pumice is about the same hardness as obsidian. It is a Mohs 6 abrasive. It does NOT cut obsidian like butter. It barely removes the polish from obsidian. It is useless on obsidian other than possibly making a slurry. Now the Mohs 6 pumice cuts Mohs 4 fluorite like butter. It appears Mohs 9 abrasive for Mohs 7 rocks, Mohs 7.5 abrasive for Mohs 5.5 rocks, Mohs 6 abrasive for Mohs 4 rocks, may be the way to go for effective break down of abrasives. A difference of 2. Would you use Mohs 10 diamond on Mohs 3 calcite ? I don't think that would be a good idea in a tumbler. Rock Shed AO 14,000 polish is lily white. Consistency of talcum powder. Bet you got the right stuff. The only reason I mixed the AO 14,000 polish with the garnet is because AO is a lot harder than garnet. Probably should have added the aluminum oxide polish a bit later during the garnet run.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 23, 2017 11:03:54 GMT -5
gmitch067If you fail or are not happy with your obsidian run I will be glad to send you some garnet 300 to try. I asked for a sample from a garnet abrasive company and they sent me a 10 year supply, medium flat rate box full lol. All you have to do is run the SiC in the rotary till it breaks down well. Move the rocks and add media to the vibe and run the garnet mixed with AO 14,000 for 2.5 days. Basically a 2 step tumble was my experience.
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Post by gmitch067 on Oct 23, 2017 20:40:19 GMT -5
Today I am shifting the Apache Tears in my UV-18 from 48 hours in the 600 grit SiC to the 1200 grit SiC (50/50 rock and ceramic mix). After reading this thread, I will shorten the vibe time for 1200 grit down from 48 hours to 24 hours. I will shorten the polish stage from 48 hours to 12 hours and check to see the results. I do not have any pumice. I'll have to order some from HisGlassworks.com and give it a try to better my slurry for future 600 and 1200 grit stages... BUT... won't adding pumice to the AO 14,000 polish stage be bad (I have always been told to not mix different polishes in the same load).I am not sure that the AO polish that I received from The Rock Shed the other day counts as AO 14,000, but I'll give it a whirl! Thank you JamesP Glenn No no. don't shorten those 48 hour run times for hard grit like SiC. You need to run those Mohs 9+ abrasives a long time to break them down each for each transition to the next abrasive. I think that would be a mistake. That is the conflict with soft rock and overly hard abrasive in an overly aggressive vibe that adds frost marks along the way. frost marks accumulate, fine abrasives cannot remove them. This is the exact reason I am experimenting with the softer Mohs 7.5 garnet abrasive. Using SiC and aluminum oxide on obsidian IMO is like using a sledge hammer on a fly. The Mohs 7.5 garnet is softer yet it still cuts the Mohs 5.5 obsidian like butter. No problem there. But the garnet breaks down into finer abrasive much faster than AO/SiC. On the other end of the spectrum, pumice is about the same hardness as obsidian. It is a Mohs 6 abrasive. It does NOT cut obsidian like butter. It barely removes the polish from obsidian. It is useless on obsidian other than possibly making a slurry. Now the Mohs 6 pumice cuts Mohs 4 fluorite like butter. It appears Mohs 9 abrasive for Mohs 7 rocks, Mohs 7.5 abrasive for Mohs 5.5 rocks, Mohs 6 abrasive for Mohs 4 rocks, may be the way to go for effective break down of abrasives. A difference of 2. Would you use Mohs 10 diamond on Mohs 3 calcite ? I don't think that would be a good idea in a tumbler. Rock Shed AO 14,000 polish is lily white. Consistency of talcum powder. Bet you got the right stuff. The only reason I mixed the AO 14,000 polish with the garnet is because AO is a lot harder than garnet. Probably should have added the aluminum oxide polish a bit later during the garnet run. Such a marvelous post JamesP... very informative (got the thread bookmarked now!!!) I will continue the 1200 grit run on my Apache Tears for the full 48 hour duration - maybe go out to 72 hours. As for running the polish stage... I will wait on that - zip lock bag em. I want to see how you progress in your abrasive studies first before making that decision (I like to sit in the field and do some extra chewing of my cud before ambling back to the barn. LOL!). My load of Mahogany Obsidian is in it's first week in 80 grit SiC. I will continue that until all the cracks, dings, and pits work themselves out... then bag them also. Your testing results are of great interest to me in understanding the intricacy of this hobby - it makes it fun! Thank you for the garnet polish offer - I will consider it for later.
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Post by Garage Rocker on Oct 23, 2017 20:57:18 GMT -5
I enjoyed tumbling apache tears. Been working my way through a bunch of mahogany and snowflake obsidian, but I'm only using one small 3lb. barrel and making a marathon of it. Lot-O-matic.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 24, 2017 4:04:55 GMT -5
No no. don't shorten those 48 hour run times for hard grit like SiC. You need to run those Mohs 9+ abrasives a long time to break them down each for each transition to the next abrasive. I think that would be a mistake. That is the conflict with soft rock and overly hard abrasive in an overly aggressive vibe that adds frost marks along the way. frost marks accumulate, fine abrasives cannot remove them. This is the exact reason I am experimenting with the softer Mohs 7.5 garnet abrasive. Using SiC and aluminum oxide on obsidian IMO is like using a sledge hammer on a fly. The Mohs 7.5 garnet is softer yet it still cuts the Mohs 5.5 obsidian like butter. No problem there. But the garnet breaks down into finer abrasive much faster than AO/SiC. On the other end of the spectrum, pumice is about the same hardness as obsidian. It is a Mohs 6 abrasive. It does NOT cut obsidian like butter. It barely removes the polish from obsidian. It is useless on obsidian other than possibly making a slurry. Now the Mohs 6 pumice cuts Mohs 4 fluorite like butter. It appears Mohs 9 abrasive for Mohs 7 rocks, Mohs 7.5 abrasive for Mohs 5.5 rocks, Mohs 6 abrasive for Mohs 4 rocks, may be the way to go for effective break down of abrasives. A difference of 2. Would you use Mohs 10 diamond on Mohs 3 calcite ? I don't think that would be a good idea in a tumbler. Rock Shed AO 14,000 polish is lily white. Consistency of talcum powder. Bet you got the right stuff. The only reason I mixed the AO 14,000 polish with the garnet is because AO is a lot harder than garnet. Probably should have added the aluminum oxide polish a bit later during the garnet run. Such a marvelous post JamesP... very informative (got the thread bookmarked now!!!) I will continue the 1200 grit run on my Apache Tears for the full 48 hour duration - maybe go out to 72 hours. As for running the polish stage... I will wait on that - zip lock bag em. I want to see how you progress in your abrasive studies first before making that decision (I like to sit in the field and do some extra chewing of my cud before ambling back to the barn. LOL!). My load of Mahogany Obsidian is in it's first week in 80 grit SiC. I will continue that until all the cracks, dings, and pits work themselves out... then bag them also. Your testing results are of great interest to me in understanding the intricacy of this hobby - it makes it fun! Thank you for the garnet polish offer - I will consider it for later. Well I would not wait on me Glenn. It will take a while before I make any conclusions. It takes a lot of time to run tumbling experiments. The UV-10/18 and my Vibrasonic may be a challenge to get the success the Lot-O can achieve on softer rocks. Using softer abrasives on softer stones is my interest on these experiments. Am fascinated with various abrasives and different processes. Alternate tumbling machines too. Check out these chunks of tumbled silicon carbide. They are from raw unsorted silicon carbide ranging from small to large particles. A cheap form of silicon carbide used in melting/mixing with steel. notjustone shared some of this with me. I have been using it in the rotary. Inexpensive mixed SiC to shape rocks well.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 24, 2017 4:44:49 GMT -5
I enjoyed tumbling apache tears. Been working my way through a bunch of mahogany and snowflake obsidian, but I'm only using one small 3lb. barrel and making a marathon of it. Lot-O-matic. The Lot-O gmitch067 will put the polish on the obsidian. Randy suggested I get one( perhaps hinting before I go mad trying to polish obsidian). Stunning work Randy.
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Post by Garage Rocker on Oct 24, 2017 5:58:07 GMT -5
Nah, James, I know you're trying to figure out how to use that aggressive machine you've got with delicate material. The Lot O wouldn't be fun for a mad scientist, anyway. The work you're doing may well just teach us all how to get a shine on soft rocks that are still problematic.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 24, 2017 10:03:00 GMT -5
Nah, James, I know you're trying to figure out how to use that aggressive machine you've got with delicate material. The Lot O wouldn't be fun for a mad scientist, anyway. The work you're doing may well just teach us all how to get a shine on soft rocks that are still problematic. Yep, and the experiments are a hobby. I bought three little tubs for the Vibrasonic. Same tubs that fit on the Mini-Sonic. Must fabricate a conversion mount. That way I can run 3 experiments at a time. May make another vibe that vibrates at a very high speed. Maybe twice as fast as ours at about 3000 vibes per minute. Maybe twice that with very(tiny) gentle movement using stiffer springs. Ultrasound is defined as starting at 20,000 vibes per minute. Could be done with a large high range stereo speaker but may kill all the animals within a quarter mile. You might could hear it in Kentucky, guess that is a bad idea.
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