stretch316
noticing nice landscape pebbles
The only dumb question, is the one NOT asked ; I don't use credit cards
Member since December 2018
Posts: 77
|
Post by stretch316 on Dec 28, 2018 10:47:13 GMT -5
Using the "Coarse Grit", that came with my Barrel, it took 33 days to get what I call a decent finish. I'm adding rounded beach gems stones to make about 4 lbs for my Vibe. I expect a 2 to 5 day run using "Rough Grit" I have discovered that Borax does make a difference, when used with grit, in the barrel; so I will be using it with the Vibe. I started using my vibe this morning. Stones are moist, surging up and down in a circular manner. What am I looking for, with regards to a proper Rough Grit run, on the stones? 1st picture is the completed barrel run. 2nd is the beach stones I added for the Vibe run.
|
|
|
Post by rmf on Dec 28, 2018 14:20:06 GMT -5
@stretch317 I would have expected the first photo to be more rounded after 33 days in coarse grit. More like the beach stones. That said please provide some info: What size rotary tumbler did you use? What is the mesh size of the coarse grit you are using? How much coarse grit did you use? When you washed out the tumbler from coarse grit was there any coarse left?
I have played with two types of Vib tumblers. A gemstone which has a cone in the center and looks kind of like and angel food cake pan with a rounded bottom. The other is a Geosonic which has a "U" shaped tub and the rocks roll around like they are in a barre. The motion of the stones is different but they both do the job. the Gemstone type tumbler the rocks come up the outside and down the center then as a mass the go clockwise around the circumference of the bowl. The key is to not get too much water or too little. Vibs are way more picky on water and grit ratios and much more forgiving on the random bit of left over grit you should have cleaned out.
I would do all my coarse in the rotary and then to the medium and finer in the VIB if you like rounded stones and don't want to wait for ever. Fro tumbling agates and jaspers I like a coarse split of grit that is 46-70mesh, To me it is the best bang for the buck. Other places sell other splits that range from 80mesh to 120 mesh. Medium varies depending on the vendor from 120-220 mesh and I like around 220. Then go to 600. Others on the forum will go finer. I do not since all these grits breakdown to finer as you tumble. I knew a commercial tumbler that only used 46-70 grit and tumbled in a steel drum for 30 days then he went to polish. The steel drum and the rocks ground each other down enough he needed no finer grits and still got a good commercial polish.
|
|
stretch316
noticing nice landscape pebbles
The only dumb question, is the one NOT asked ; I don't use credit cards
Member since December 2018
Posts: 77
|
Post by stretch316 on Dec 28, 2018 16:56:45 GMT -5
@stretch317 I would have expected the first photo to be more rounded after 33 days in coarse grit. More like the beach stones. That said please provide some info: What size rotary tumbler did you use? What is the mesh size of the coarse grit you are using? How much coarse grit did you use? When you washed out the tumbler from coarse grit was there any coarse left? I have played with two types of Vib tumblers. A gemstone which has a cone in the center and looks kind of like and angel food cake pan with a rounded bottom. The other is a Geosonic which has a "U" shaped tub and the rocks roll around like they are in a barre. The motion of the stones is different but they both do the job. the Gemstone type tumbler the rocks come up the outside and down the center then as a mass the go clockwise around the circumference of the bowl. The key is to not get too much water or too little. Vibs are way more picky on water and grit ratios and much more forgiving on the random bit of left over grit you should have cleaned out. I would do all my coarse in the rotary and then to the medium and finer in the VIB if you like rounded stones and don't want to wait for ever. Fro tumbling agates and jaspers I like a coarse split of grit that is 46-70mesh, To me it is the best bang for the buck. Other places sell other splits that range from 80mesh to 120 mesh. Medium varies depending on the vendor from 120-220 mesh and I like around 220. Then go to 600. Others on the forum will go finer. I do not since all these grits breakdown to finer as you tumble. I knew a commercial tumbler that only used 46-70 grit and tumbled in a steel drum for 30 days then he went to polish. The steel drum and the rocks ground each other down enough he needed no finer grits and still got a good commercial polish. The quality of the grit that came with the tumbler left much to be desired. I used the whole package that was supplied. There was no grit pooled anywhere in the barrel. Poured the fluid out, grit is settling up on the bottom of the plastic container. When I washed the stones, a negligible amount of grit had been left on them.
I now have 60/90. The coarse grit, that came with the barrel, was not listed. Barrel holds 2 -2 1/2 lbs of stone comfortably. I'm a patient person. I'll be playing mad scientist, till I get the results I'm looking for.
|
|
|
Post by grumpybill on Dec 28, 2018 17:17:56 GMT -5
Course grit is no longer "course grit" after a week or less. It continually breaks down into smaller and smaller pieces as the load tumbles.
|
|
stretch316
noticing nice landscape pebbles
The only dumb question, is the one NOT asked ; I don't use credit cards
Member since December 2018
Posts: 77
|
Post by stretch316 on Dec 28, 2018 18:04:49 GMT -5
Course grit is no longer "course grit" after a week or less. It continually breaks down into smaller and smaller pieces as the load tumbles. I bought a second grit kit when I bought the barrel. Its now been used up. The 60/90 I bought last week, I got from an independent supplier.
|
|
|
Post by grumpybill on Dec 28, 2018 18:12:15 GMT -5
I open my barrels every few days and rub some slurry between my thumb and finger. If it doesn't feel gritty, it's time for a cleanout or recharge.
|
|
|
Post by rmf on Dec 28, 2018 19:48:21 GMT -5
I took the opposite view from grumpybill. At one point I had 10 - 12# barrels and it took me over an hour just to open the tops and reseal and check them. I hate opening the tumblers so I just added more coarse grit into begin with and dont open until done unless something happens (I pop a top). Then rough tumble for a month in coarse. Sounds like you are on the right track. Make sure the tumbler barrel is about 80% full, with a good mix of sizes. That helps too.
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Dec 28, 2018 22:59:40 GMT -5
Did you do your coarse run in a rotary barrel? I'm a bit confused.
What exactly is your regimen thus far? I'd love to help, but I'm really at loss at what you are doing with your material. You've had a bunch of threads speaking to different processes, so I am not sure where you're at. If you could speak to what exactly you've done related to the photos above, that would be helpful for us who are trying to help.
|
|
stretch316
noticing nice landscape pebbles
The only dumb question, is the one NOT asked ; I don't use credit cards
Member since December 2018
Posts: 77
|
Post by stretch316 on Dec 29, 2018 5:01:25 GMT -5
Did you do your coarse run in a rotary barrel? I'm a bit confused. What exactly is your regimen thus far? I'd love to help, but I'm really at loss at what you are doing with your material. You've had a bunch of threads speaking to different processes, so I am not sure where you're at. If you could speak to what exactly you've done related to the photos above, that would be helpful for us who are trying to help. yes, I did the Coarse run in the barrel. I originally planned to use just a barrel, got a vibe on sale. Now I'm using barrel and Vibe. Photo #1; 33 days in barrel, photo #2 beach stones. Added beach stones to the barrel stones in Vibe to give me about 4 lbs of stones.
Barrel Tumbler 1) Coarse Grit #1 : 33 days, high speed (60/90 grit, 1 lvl Tbsp per lb ) : tumble until you are satisfied with the shape of the rocks. 2) 1 Tbls soap – 24 hours low speed Right now, I'm on day 2 here
Vibe#1bucket – (4 lbs) 3) Rough Grit #2 : 2-5 days (100/120) 2 lvl Teaspoons, (Borax- about 1/2 tablespoon of soap per pound of rock. 4) 2 Tbls soap – 24 hours - barrel tumbler
Vibe#1bucket 5) Fine Grit #3 : 2 days (700 grit) 2 lvl Teaspoons , (Borax- about 1/2 tablespoon of soap per pound of rock.) 6) 2 Tbls soap – 24 hours - barrel tumbler
Vibe#1Bucket 7) pre-polish #4 : 1 days 1000 grit (Iolox 50) : 1- 2 lvl Tablespoons 8) 12 Tbls soap – 24 hours - barrel tumbler
Vibe#2bucket 9) Polish Grit #5 : 2 days - 13,000 grit to 14,000 grit ( Hard Stones Polish TL) - 2 lvl Teaspoons - Cerium Oxide, Alumina Oxide or Tin Oxide
Barrel Tumblert: Burnish – 24 hours - Ivory Soap Flakes , For burnishing we grate or very thinly slice up a bar of Ivory Soap and add 1/2 tablespoon of soap slices for each pound of material in our tumbler.
|
|
stretch316
noticing nice landscape pebbles
The only dumb question, is the one NOT asked ; I don't use credit cards
Member since December 2018
Posts: 77
|
Post by stretch316 on Dec 29, 2018 5:09:12 GMT -5
Course grit is no longer "course grit" after a week or less. It continually breaks down into smaller and smaller pieces as the load tumbles. The grits that came with my barrel , were inadequate. Grit size was not printed on the packages. The Grits that came with my Vibe were very well labeled.
I did purchase some 60/90 for the barrel.
|
|
|
Post by grumpybill on Dec 29, 2018 8:06:10 GMT -5
I took the opposite view from grumpybill. At one point I had 10 - 12# barrels and it took me over an hour just to open the tops and reseal and check them. If I was running that much at once I'd do the same.
|
|
|
Post by rmf on Dec 29, 2018 8:27:38 GMT -5
One more thing. If you use too much coarse grit in the first grind. If you wash your tumbler out over a 5 gal bucket the unbroken down coarse grit will settle out (unless you use max blast from hose). This can easily be recovered and reused. I have done this with coarse and on a flat lap I have recovered some 220 but more of that floats away any thing finer goes with the mud.
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Dec 29, 2018 13:03:16 GMT -5
yes, I did the Coarse run in the barrel. I originally planned to use just a barrel, got a vibe on sale. Now I'm using barrel and Vibe. Photo #1; 33 days in barrel, photo #2 beach stones. Added beach stones to the barrel stones in Vibe to give me about 4 lbs of stones. Barrel Tumbler 1) Coarse Grit #1 : 33 days, high speed (60/90 grit, 1 lvl Tbsp per lb ) : tumble until you are satisfied with the shape of the rocks. 2) 1 Tbls soap – 24 hours low speed
I'm just going to focus on the rotary side of things. I don't own or use vibe tumblers, so I'm not going to attempt to offer any advice there. Like rmf, I would have expected more rounding than what I see in your first photo after that length of time. Your choice of 60/90 grit is good, as anything larger (like 46/70) won't get broken down in a barrel as small as yours. However, I also noted that you posted this about your coarse stage: Would you mind detailing what you did over those 33 days? Did you load up the barrel on day one and just let it go for 33 days? Did you do weekly (complete) cleanouts of the barrel and then add fresh grit, or did you periodically add grit through those 33 days without ever rinsing things off? I'm not sure what you mean by "no grit pooled anywhere in the barrel." If you have a bunch of unused grit (especially coarse), it will immediately settle to the bottom of the barrel when you set it down for cleanout. If you have a bunch of grit left, then it's not being used up efficiently and doing the work it's supposed to. Hopefully we can hone in on what was going on in that first stage, as I think you can get better results and properly broken down grit. I'm not being critical by any means - the more imperfections you can remove in that coarse stage means less places for grit to remain trapped and cause potential contamination issues in subsequent stages.
|
|
stretch316
noticing nice landscape pebbles
The only dumb question, is the one NOT asked ; I don't use credit cards
Member since December 2018
Posts: 77
|
Post by stretch316 on Dec 29, 2018 17:10:48 GMT -5
Would you mind detailing what you did over those 33 days? Did you load up the barrel on day one and just let it go for 33 days? Did you do weekly (complete) cleanouts of the barrel and then add fresh grit, or did you periodically add grit through those 33 days without ever rinsing things off? I'm not sure what you mean by "no grit pooled anywhere in the barrel." If you have a bunch of unused grit (especially coarse), it will immediately settle to the bottom of the barrel when you set it down for cleanout. If you have a bunch of grit left, then it's not being used up efficiently and doing the work it's supposed to. Hopefully we can hone in on what was going on in that first stage, as I think you can get better results and properly broken down grit. I'm not being critical by any means - the more imperfections you can remove in that coarse stage means less places for grit to remain trapped and cause potential contamination issues in subsequent stages. I started using my barrel the 5th November, I followed the instruction booklet and used all 4 grits that came with the kit and finished the 3rd December. 28 days. Slurry was the consistency of eggnog and no bubbles. I was not happy with the finished product. Following the instructions provided by the booklet was a mistake. During this initial test run I found the grit had pooled/collected in a narrow band on side of the barrel. I started over and have done three 8 day runs, using the barrel with Borax and the original coarse grit I got with the kit. I am no longer getting the pooling problem with the grit in the barrel. Slurry was thicker and had bubbles, like a thick milkshake. Stones looked better this time around. I am out of the original coarse grit that came with the kit and have bought 60/90 to use in my next barrel run. I expect a better result using the 60/90 in the barrel. 33 days is my estimate in how long it will take me to do an end to end run using Barrel and Vibe on a batch of stones.
I am in my second day, using the Vibe , slurry is coating the stones and is shiny wet. No drying out problems at this time.
Right now, I'm in experiment mode, to find the best way to use my machines most efficiently, to create a good result.
I have about 20 lbs of gem stones, to play with till spring, when I will start rock hounding Your observations are welcome. Thank you for the help.
|
|
|
Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Dec 29, 2018 17:43:10 GMT -5
I know it has been said before in your threads but you still seem to be hung up on how many days to complete a batch. You are going to have to decide if you are after a certain level of quality or a certain level of time. The two do not go hand in hand. Each and every rock in my finished batches spent a different amount of time tumbling. Figuring out your timeline for everything past stage one is good. Nothing wrong with that. Stage one time is where the randomness comes in. Some rough rocks are going to be in much worse condition then others meaning more sharp edges, more flaws and more fractures. The other factor is rock hardness. Some rocks are going to wear at different rates due to how hard they are. In this example the pet wood on the left was medium length tumble. The hammer broken rough had pretty clean breaks and not many flaws in the rocks. Maybe about 4-5 weeks in stage one. The Montana agate in the middle is an extremely hard material with several flaws in the rough. I would expect that to tumble is stage one for a minimum of 16 weeks before moving to stage 2. The beach worn granite on the right is the other end of the spectrum. Because it is already pretty much naturally smooth I would only expect that to be in stage one for about two weeks. Chuck
|
|
|
Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Dec 29, 2018 18:06:36 GMT -5
Here is another example using some tiger eye I have been tumbling since 11-1-2018. At least half of this material is still rolling in stage one with weekly clean outs and recharging. I have been able to pull a hand full of them out of stage one each week starting back on 12-1-2018. If I was not pulling rocks that were ready each week I would have been wasting grit and I would have been removing more material then needed on some of the rocks. I expect all of the material to be finished in the next four weeks. So that means that time will range from 30 to 90 days depending on the individual rocks. The rough I started with back on 11-1 I ran these rocks on purpose to show that rocks with flaws can be processed and will shine. These only spent 1 week in stage one (like the tumbler instructions say to do) and then went straight into the vibe. These spent about 8 weeks in stage one with weekly clean outs. Chuck
|
|
stretch316
noticing nice landscape pebbles
The only dumb question, is the one NOT asked ; I don't use credit cards
Member since December 2018
Posts: 77
|
Post by stretch316 on Dec 29, 2018 19:02:52 GMT -5
I know it has been said before in your threads but you still seem to be hung up on how many days to complete a batch. You are going to have to decide if you are after a certain level of quality or a certain level of time. The two do not go hand in hand. Each and every rock in my finished batches spent a different amount of time tumbling. Figuring out your timeline for everything past stage one is good. Nothing wrong with that. Stage one time is where the randomness comes in. Some rough rocks are going to be in much worse condition then others meaning more sharp edges, more flaws and more fractures. The other factor is rock hardness. Some rocks are going to wear at different rates due to how hard they are. In this example the pet wood on the left was medium length tumble. The hammer broken rough had pretty clean breaks and not many flaws in the rocks. Maybe about 4-5 weeks in stage one. The Montana agate in the middle is an extremely hard material with several flaws in the rough. I would expect that to tumble is stage one for a minimum of 16 weeks before moving to stage 2. The beach worn granite on the right is the other end of the spectrum. Because it is already pretty much naturally smooth I would only expect that to be in stage one for about two weeks. Chuck From what I see in my area, I'll be playing with Quartz, Agate and Jasper. Its my understanding that they are all around a 7 hardness. My time estimate is just a starting point, I expect my end to end run to be longer, but have no clue how much longer. Right now, until I use the 60/90, I'm guessing 30 days in the barrel. So my estimate is on the low side. A more reasonable expectation would be around 45 days. I'll have to wait and see how things go after a few end to end runs.
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Dec 29, 2018 19:56:27 GMT -5
From what I see in my area, I'll be playing with Quartz, Agate and Jasper. Its my understanding that they are all around a 7 hardness. My time estimate is just a starting point, I expect my end to end run to be longer, but have no clue how much longer. Right now, until I use the 60/90, I'm guessing 30 days in the barrel. So my estimate is on the low side. A more reasonable expectation would be around 45 days. I'll have to wait and see how things go after a few end to end runs.Chuck Drummond Island Rocks gave you a bunch of great information. From what I'm seeing, your vibe stages "may" be OK in terms of duration, but you might find that you'll need to tweak your recipe(s) to give you a great final batch. From what I've seen, even the type of vibe can cause variations in runs. Again, I'm not a vibe user, so I'll sit back on that stuff. Where I have concern is your (artificial) deadline in dealing with the very first stage (coarse) that you are running in your rotary barrel. Please, please, don't get hung up on doing the first stage for a set length of time. You'll pretty much be disappointed in the long run, as things don't work that way. Different rocks and different barrel loads will produce different results no matter how much you think you've got stuff dialed in. In one load, things may progress as you would expect - grit breakdown and such. In another load, things might not go as well, and you have a bunch of grit left over. Speaking only to your (rotary) coarse stage, let things run until you are happy with the rocks. Do cleanouts each week, rinse everything off, inspect the rocks for features that may not tumble out, add new grit, and start over. When you have rocks that you are happy with, pull those out, set them aside, and add new rocks to top off your level. When you have enough rocks that you like from your coarse stage, they can go to medium in your vibe. That's about all I've got. At the end of the day, you can do what you like, but I'd hate to see you spinning your wheels for no reason. I noted in your reply to my initial request about what you're doing, and it appears to be a copy and paste from someone else sending you information. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but you've got a few steps/material that you don't need to add, IMHO. Borax may help, and Dove can be used for burnishing, but just know that Borax can be used for both of those steps. Use Borax as you tumble with grit, and use Borax alone for your burnishing stage(s). That might save you an extra step down the road. Good luck.
|
|
stretch316
noticing nice landscape pebbles
The only dumb question, is the one NOT asked ; I don't use credit cards
Member since December 2018
Posts: 77
|
Post by stretch316 on Dec 30, 2018 4:04:14 GMT -5
From what I see in my area, I'll be playing with Quartz, Agate and Jasper. Its my understanding that they are all around a 7 hardness. My time estimate is just a starting point, I expect my end to end run to be longer, but have no clue how much longer. Right now, until I use the 60/90, I'm guessing 30 days in the barrel. So my estimate is on the low side. A more reasonable expectation would be around 45 days. I'll have to wait and see how things go after a few end to end runs.Chuck Drummond Island Rocks gave you a bunch of great information. From what I'm seeing, your vibe stages "may" be OK in terms of duration, but you might find that you'll need to tweak your recipe(s) to give you a great final batch. From what I've seen, even the type of vibe can cause variations in runs. Again, I'm not a vibe user, so I'll sit back on that stuff. Where I have concern is your (artificial) deadline in dealing with the very first stage (coarse) that you are running in your rotary barrel. Please, please, don't get hung up on doing the first stage for a set length of time. You'll pretty much be disappointed in the long run, as things don't work that way. Different rocks and different barrel loads will produce different results no matter how much you think you've got stuff dialed in. In one load, things may progress as you would expect - grit breakdown and such. In another load, things might not go as well, and you have a bunch of grit left over. Speaking only to your (rotary) coarse stage, let things run until you are happy with the rocks. Do cleanouts each week, rinse everything off, inspect the rocks for features that may not tumble out, add new grit, and start over. When you have rocks that you are happy with, pull those out, set them aside, and add new rocks to top off your level. When you have enough rocks that you like from your coarse stage, they can go to medium in your vibe. That's about all I've got. At the end of the day, you can do what you like, but I'd hate to see you spinning your wheels for no reason. I noted in your reply to my initial request about what you're doing, and it appears to be a copy and paste from someone else sending you information. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but you've got a few steps/material that you don't need to add, IMHO. Borax may help, and Dove can be used for burnishing, but just know that Borax can be used for both of those steps. Use Borax as you tumble with grit, and use Borax alone for your burnishing stage(s). That might save you an extra step down the road. Good luck. Thank you
|
|