NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Jan 29, 2019 19:02:15 GMT -5
Good day,
I have a rotary tumbler (QT-12), and use 4 stages (60/90 Silicon Carbide), (120/200 Silicon Carbide), (500/600 Silicon Carbide), (1200 Aluminum Oxide), each stage taking 1 week. My second batch I went 2 weeks with stage 1.
Q1) When cleaning out barrel from any stage, I read and see people saying to never allow the rocks to dry out, or get out of water, in between stages (cleaning, transferring, etc)? Is this a hard truth? I've been careful to keep them under water so far.
Q2) If so, does this mean that I can never re-run any of my batch 1 rocks in another batch (batch 2), if I felt the stones in question needed a lot more shaping before going to the next step, and pulled them out (letting them dry)?
Q3) If I decide to run stage 1 for 4 weeks, do i keep the same grit in there? And just let it spin? Density changes. Or do I pull all of th e rocks out, and clean them, and then run them again with fresh new 60/90 Silicon Carbide? This could apply to any stage really, but I am most interested in stage 1.
Q4) I had to buy tumbling media (large, ceramic) to make up the difference to get the level back up to 3/4 barrel full, on my last batch. At latter stages I was using up to 4 pounds. Is this normal? Or should I put more than 3/4 barrel full in my first stage?
Q5) To add to this, what if I had some pre-tumbled, dry stones sitting around which I pulled out of a prior tumbling session? Could I add these to the mix, even though they had dried out? Or would it damage them? Or maybe I could, if they were wet, and sitting in water the whole time?
Thanks to any who can help me. I am trying to read and watch a lot, but I am confused on a couple beginner things so far.
-Bill
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Post by Jugglerguy on Jan 29, 2019 23:03:23 GMT -5
Good day, I have a rotary tumbler (QT-12), and use 4 stages (60/90 Silicon Carbide), (120/200 Silicon Carbide), (500/600 Silicon Carbide), (1200 Aluminum Oxide), each stage taking 1 week. My second batch I went 2 weeks with stage 1. Q1) When cleaning out barrel from any stage, I read and see people saying to never allow the rocks to dry out, or get out of water, in between stages (cleaning, transferring, etc)? Is this a hard truth? I've been careful to keep them under water so far. Q2) If so, does this mean that I can never re-run any of my batch 1 rocks in another batch (batch 2), if I felt the stones in question needed a lot more shaping before going to the next step, and pulled them out (letting them dry)? Q3) If I decide to run stage 1 for 4 weeks, do i keep the same grit in there? And just let it spin? Density changes. Or do I pull all of th e rocks out, and clean them, and then run them again with fresh new 60/90 Silicon Carbide? This could apply to any stage really, but I am most interested in stage 1. Q4) I had to buy tumbling media (large, ceramic) to make up the difference to get the level back up to 3/4 barrel full, on my last batch. At latter stages I was using up to 4 pounds. Is this normal? Or should I put more than 3/4 barrel full in my first stage? Q5) To add to this, what if I had some pre-tumbled, dry stones sitting around which I pulled out of a prior tumbling session? Could I add these to the mix, even though they had dried out? Or would it damage them? Or maybe I could, if they were wet, and sitting in water the whole time? Thanks to any who can help me. I am trying to read and watch a lot, but I am confused on a couple beginner things so far. -Bill Q1) When cleaning out barrel from any stage, I read and see people saying to never allow the rocks to dry out, or get out of water, in between stages (cleaning, transferring, etc)? Is this a hard truth? I've been careful to keep them under water so far. I let my rocks dry out after stage one every time. In later stages, I try not to let them dry out. This isn’t difficult because they just get rinsed really well and go right back in the barrel. The reason you don’t want them to dry out is because if you have any cracks or holes with slurry in them, it will dry out and harden like concrete. This is more of a problem in later stages because the particles are smaller and can get wedged in smaller cracks. Q2) If so, does this mean that I can never re-run any of my batch 1 rocks in another batch (batch 2), if I felt the stones in question needed a lot more shaping before going to the next step, and pulled them out (letting them dry)? You can always rerun rocks. If you go back to earlier stages, especially the 60/90 stage, you’ll grind off any cracks that might hold hardened grit and slurry. Q3) If I decide to run stage 1 for 4 weeks, do i keep the same grit in there? And just let it spin? Density changes. Or do I pull all of th e rocks out, and clean them, and then run them again with fresh new 60/90 Silicon Carbide? This could apply to any stage really, but I am most interested in stage 1. Stage one is the most misunderstood stage by beginners. The manual that comes with most tumblers says to run for some set amount of time, usually a week. Many of us run the first stage for many weeks or even months. I prefer my rocks to be completely free of any defects before I move them on. I rinse the rocks off each week and inspect each rock. If I find any that are completely smooth (no cracks or holes), I set them aside until I have enough for stage two. I replace the lost volume with more rough rock. Some rocks end up being in the first stage for longer than others. Since I store these stage one rocks until I have enough, they get stored dry. There’s no problem at all with this. Q4) I had to buy tumbling media (large, ceramic) to make up the difference to get the level back up to 3/4 barrel full, on my last batch. At latter stages I was using up to 4 pounds. Is this normal? Or should I put more than 3/4 barrel full in my first stage? You shouldn’t need to make up much if any volume with ceramics. Ceramics or plastic is used to cushion the load. When you save your rocks from the first stage, be sure to accumulate enough to fill the barrel 3/4 full. These rocks will not all be from the very first time you fill the barrel. You’ll be adding more fresh rock several times during the first stage. There will be much less loss of volume in the last stages, so you shouldn’t have to make up for much. Q5) To add to this, what if I had some pre-tumbled, dry stones sitting around which I pulled out of a prior tumbling session? Could I add these to the mix, even though they had dried out? Or would it damage them? Or maybe I could, if they were wet, and sitting in water the whole time? You can add them in, especially to the first stage.
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Post by aDave on Jan 29, 2019 23:22:10 GMT -5
Good day, I have a rotary tumbler (QT-12), and use 4 stages (60/90 Silicon Carbide), (120/200 Silicon Carbide), (500/600 Silicon Carbide), (1200 Aluminum Oxide), each stage taking 1 week. My second batch I went 2 weeks with stage 1. Rob Jugglerguy hit all your questions, so I'm not going to add anything there. However, your use of 1200 Aluminum Oxide does not constitute using a polish. In fact, it would be considered a pre-polish grit which would be used before the polish stage itself. So, if, in fact, 1200 AO was your last stage, you short-changed yourself. That's not meant to be a criticism at all, so please don't take it that way. Folks that are new to the hobby are often fooled, as 1000-1200 seems the next logical jump. Unfortunately, it won't give you the best results you can get. Look for an aluminum oxide polish that is around 14,000 - 13,000 (1 - 1.5 microns). This is what you should finish your run with. That may seem like a big jump from 500/600, but it's really not. However, you can still use that 1200...just finish up with whatever polish you end up buying. But, at the end of the day, it's absolutely okay to go from 500/600 directly to 14,000 to finish things up. From there, you can tweak your recipe at different stages related to time spent tumbling what grits you end up using. Good luck, and don't hesitate with the questions.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Jan 29, 2019 23:31:13 GMT -5
Good day, I have a rotary tumbler (QT-12), and use 4 stages (60/90 Silicon Carbide), (120/200 Silicon Carbide), (500/600 Silicon Carbide), (1200 Aluminum Oxide), each stage taking 1 week. My second batch I went 2 weeks with stage 1. Rob Jugglerguy hit all your questions, so I'm not going to add anything there. However, your use of 1200 Aluminum Oxide does not constitute using a polish. In fact, it would be considered a pre-polish grit which would be used before the polish stage itself. So, if, in fact, 1200 AO was your last stage, you short-changed yourself. That's not meant to be a criticism at all, so please don't take it that way. Folks that are new to the hobby are often fooled, as 1000-1200 seems the next logical jump. Unfortunately, it won't give you the best results you can get. Look for an aluminum oxide polish that is around 14,000 - 13,000 (1 - 1.5 microns). This is what you should finish your run with. That may seem like a big jump from 500/600, but it's really not. However, you can still use that 1200...just finish up with whatever polish you end up buying. But, at the end of the day, it's absolutely okay to go from 500/600 directly to 14,000 to finish things up. From there, you can tweak your recipe at different stages related to time spent tumbling what grits you end up using. Good luck, and don't hesitate with the questions. I missed that Dave, good point.
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Kai
spending too much on rocks
Member since December 2018
Posts: 331
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Post by Kai on Jan 30, 2019 15:01:46 GMT -5
Hello and thanks for the interesting questions (and of course thanks to the others for good answers), it's always great to learn something new for all us beginners!
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gatorflash1
spending too much on rocks
Active in Delaware Mineralogical Society, Cabchon Grinding and Polishing, 2 Thumlers B's and a UV-18
Member since October 2018
Posts: 375
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Post by gatorflash1 on Jan 30, 2019 16:02:11 GMT -5
Good day, I have a rotary tumbler (QT-12), and use 4 stages (60/90 Silicon Carbide), (120/200 Silicon Carbide), (500/600 Silicon Carbide), (1200 Aluminum Oxide), each stage taking 1 week. My second batch I went 2 weeks with stage 1. Q1) When cleaning out barrel from any stage, I read and see people saying to never allow the rocks to dry out, or get out of water, in between stages (cleaning, transferring, etc)? Is this a hard truth? I've been careful to keep them under water so far. Q2) If so, does this mean that I can never re-run any of my batch 1 rocks in another batch (batch 2), if I felt the stones in question needed a lot more shaping before going to the next step, and pulled them out (letting them dry)? Q3) If I decide to run stage 1 for 4 weeks, do i keep the same grit in there? And just let it spin? Density changes. Or do I pull all of th e rocks out, and clean them, and then run them again with fresh new 60/90 Silicon Carbide? This could apply to any stage really, but I am most interested in stage 1. Q4) I had to buy tumbling media (large, ceramic) to make up the difference to get the level back up to 3/4 barrel full, on my last batch. At latter stages I was using up to 4 pounds. Is this normal? Or should I put more than 3/4 barrel full in my first stage? Q5) To add to this, what if I had some pre-tumbled, dry stones sitting around which I pulled out of a prior tumbling session? Could I add these to the mix, even though they had dried out? Or would it damage them? Or maybe I could, if they were wet, and sitting in water the whole time? Thanks to any who can help me. I am trying to read and watch a lot, but I am confused on a couple beginner things so far. -Bill
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gatorflash1
spending too much on rocks
Active in Delaware Mineralogical Society, Cabchon Grinding and Polishing, 2 Thumlers B's and a UV-18
Member since October 2018
Posts: 375
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Post by gatorflash1 on Jan 30, 2019 16:59:11 GMT -5
Bill those are very good questions. Here's my take and I'm by no means an expert or as experienced in tumbling as some of the others in this forum. But what I do seems to work well for me. Let me know if this makes sense to you. I recommend a book called Modern Tumbling that is loaded with good facts.
I'm running a Thumlers Tumbler Model B 15lb. rotary. Here is how I run my stages (and sessions within a stage) which would be the same for any rotary tumbler. The majority of the work described is for stage 1 rough tumbling, but applies to all stages. I keep examining each rock at the end of each session until either it has a good appearance, or I completely give up on it and toss into the junky rocks pile. I'm tumbling stone in the hard Mohs 7 range, not the softer stones. A couple of old tumbling axioms I learned were that unattractive rough rocks beget unattractive tumbled rocks, and hard rocks eat soft rocks.
A1) A2) A3) At the end of each 10 day +/- session I dump out the rocks into a colander held over a big bucket, wash off the slurry, and dry the rocks. After drying I examine each of them and if they look real good they go into a pile destined at some point to move on to the next stage. If they don't look good enough to go on they go back into the barrel and I repeat the current stage session recharging the grit and adding more rocks, ceramic media, and water to fill to 3/4th of the barrel. I don't recycle old slurry because it has broken down and will not perform for this stage any more. If I'm repeating a stage session I don't bother to clean out the barrel since there will be no grit size change hence no grit contamination. I don't rush from one stage to the next until the rock tells me at examination that it is ready for the next stage. Some stage sessions, usually in stage 1, can run for several months, repeating the sessions every 10 days or so, until I like the looks of the rocks and move them on to the next stage. When I get enough good rocks to warrant moving to the next stage, I then perform a real good thorough cleaning of the barrel and rocks to avoid any old grit contamination in the next stage.
A4) A5) I only use mixed ceramic media because I like the balanced media and with ceramic I don't worry about grit contamination of the media. I wash off my rocks after each session and let them dry so I can give them a good look-see. I couldn't do this if they were wet or had slurry still on them. After a good cleaning the mixed media can go to the next stage (unlike plastic media) without fear of grit contamination.
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Jan 30, 2019 20:35:58 GMT -5
Thank you all for your well thought our replies!
Rob - Your response has completely changed the whole way I view tumbling rocks. I never thought about "you can always re-run rocks", or possibly having 1 rotary tumbler with 1 job only, which is to process (stage 1) rocks alone. Cleaning out the batch weekly, and a never ending treadmill of rocks being added / subtracted from the barrel based on how shaped they had become. I think I really like this idea!
My next question regarding this is simple, Rob. When doing the weekly clean ups, should I dump out all of the used 60/90 grit that was used this week, and replace with a new (16 oz) of 60/90 when refilling the barrel? Or (b) should I just pull the stoned out of the barrel, clean the stones, and then just drop the ones that need more work back in to the original barrel of old 60/90, and maybe perhaps just add a couple more Oz. full of fresh 60/90. Sorry if the question sounds dumb. But I would appreciate knowing this.
Dave - Another great tip. Thank you! I was not aware of the existence of any tumbling grit past the 1200 stuff! I actually stocked up on 1200, because I wasn't seeing enough shine after late stages. Ugh. Time to go shopping for 14000.
My next question regarding 14000, is should it be Aluminum Oxide? Or are there other choices here? Q2, should I use the same amount of Ounces / pound of rocks, as other polishing stage? Right now I am using 8oz of 1200 grit for my late stage, for a 12 pound tumbler that is 3/4 full. Do you recommend a supplier that I can buy bulk from? Sorry, many questions. Thank you.
Kai - I agree. Always be learning. Great answers from people here so far!
Gator - Is that a snake in your hand?? or rocks? Cool if they are rocks. I will buy the book, thank you for the advice. You have a similar (stage 1) technique to Rob, which I am going to adopt soon. Point. Re-charge the grit after each 7-10 day cleaning. Got it. Also looks like you use the same rotary tumbler for (stage 1, 2). Interesting. When you have enough rocks for a (stage 2), then full clean out of the barrel, and rocks, and load up for (stage 2). You don't worry about grit contamination either. Interesting. OK.
My follow up question (if you don't mind, Gator), is by "mixed media", do you refer to combining Small, Medium, Large, sized ceramics all together, so as to allow for maximum surface area to touch each individual rock? Thank you.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Jan 30, 2019 21:00:08 GMT -5
Who said anything about one rotary tumbler??? I do almost all of my later steps in my Lot-O. I use rotaries for the first stage exactly as you describe. It's a perpetual load of rocks. That's not a dumb question at all and you'll get a variety of opinions on this site. Some people like to reuse old slurry (or kitty litter) to thicken up their next slurry. I don't do that. I rinse everything and throw it back in a clean barrel with clean water and fresh grit. The old grit will be used up by this point. With a large barrel, you might want to use 46/70 which is a little quicker. 60/90 is good for smaller barrels though. I buy coarse grit from Kingsley North which sells it pretty cheap in 50 lb. bags. I buy all my other grit from The Rock Shed. Yes, get aluminum oxide polish from The Rock Shed. There are other choices, but aluminum oxide works really well for almost everything. Buy a Lot-O and you won't need to buy bulk grits except for the first stage. It uses 2 TABLEspoons for the first two days and then only 1/2 TEAspoon for the later stages. And you can have all the other stages done in a week.
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Post by aDave on Jan 30, 2019 21:20:09 GMT -5
Thank you all for your well thought our replies! Rob - Your response has completely changed the whole way I view tumbling rocks. I never thought about "you can always re-run rocks", or possibly having 1 rotary tumbler with 1 job only, which is to process (stage 1) rocks alone. Cleaning out the batch weekly, and a never ending treadmill of rocks being added / subtracted from the barrel based on how shaped they had become. I think I really like this idea! My next question regarding this is simple, Rob. When doing the weekly clean ups, should I dump out all of the used 60/90 grit that was used this week, and replace with a new (16 oz) of 60/90 when refilling the barrel? Or (b) should I just pull the stoned out of the barrel, clean the stones, and then just drop the ones that need more work back in to the original barrel of old 60/90, and maybe perhaps just add a couple more Oz. full of fresh 60/90. Sorry if the question sounds dumb. But I would appreciate knowing this. Dave - Another great tip. Thank you! I was not aware of the existence of any tumbling grit past the 1200 stuff! I actually stocked up on 1200, because I wasn't seeing enough shine after late stages. Ugh. Time to go shopping for 14000. My next question regarding 14000, is should it be Aluminum Oxide? Or are there other choices here? Q2, should I use the same amount of Ounces / pound of rocks, as other polishing stage? Right now I am using 8oz of 1200 grit for my late stage, for a 12 pound tumbler that is 3/4 full. Do you recommend a supplier that I can buy bulk from? Sorry, many questions. Thank you. Bill, I'll quickly hit your question to Rob since I'm dealing with mine. I, as well as Rob, I believe, dump all of our rocks with the slurry and then do the cleaning and inspection. If all has gone well, you won't have any grit leftover at the end of the week anyhow, so it does no good to place rocks back in a solution with all of the grit used up. Then a new batch of grit is added. Some people will keep the slurry and then add grit to that, but I never liked doing it. If you see the term, "recharge," that's what this refers to. I simply like doing a complete cleanout and add new grit. I have much more control of what is going on in the barrel. I'm sure you're already figuring this equates to using a tremendous amount of grit for the first stage. It does. Because of this, many folks buy coarse grit in bulk (50 lbs) and then store it. If you don't have a vendor close to you, Kingsley North is a good source for bulk purchases of that amount. Call them and place your order, and ask them to ship in a USPS Large Flat Rate Box. It is much cheaper than freight, and a LFRB will fit that much grit. That shipping option may not be listed on their website (it wasn't before), but I was able to order that way by calling in the past. As far as your polish questions, just buy aluminum oxide (AO). There are other types of polish, but AO is cheaper than the rest, and it is more than sufficient. The Rock Shed is a good source for polish, as well as the other grit you might need other than coarse in the amount listed above. The Rock Shed's polish is 1.5 micron (13,000), but size is not listed on the website. I got the size information directly from the store. I happen to use it, and it is more than adequate. Polish is one stage where you can pretty drastically cut back on the amount. For instance, the Lortone manual for my finish tumblers says to use 8 tablespoons of polish in a 4 lb barrel. I've since cut back to 3 level tablespoons and results are outstanding. The recommended amount just made for a thick mess. I don't know how little you should start with considering I'm not using that size tumbler. What do your instructions indicate? Whatever it says, I'd start with half the amount and see what happens. ETA: I see Rob Jugglerguy beat me to the punch, but I'l leave this here in case there's something here that he didn't cover.
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NevadaBill
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,332
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Post by NevadaBill on Jan 31, 2019 1:18:45 GMT -5
First of all Rob, wow! what a dream set up. The cabinet probably even cuts down the noise. I never thought about doing that. It gets cold in the garage too, and if I lined the box with insulating material, then it might cut down on noise even further. I already had to shut the tumbler down for house guests staying in a room not far from the garage already, due to the excessive noise.
I'll look in to the LOt-O. Maybe a 4.5lb, and 2 barrels is all I need to handle finishing stages.
Thank you both for the quick responses, and for the great information!
Quite honestly, I never expected to learn so much from just my first couple of posts and Q&A with the message board here. I really appreciate the time you have spent to document your experience here. I think I am armed with just enough knowledge now to be dangerous.
The sources for grit and other supplies are going to save money in the long run. I've been using Ebay. Yes, 50 pounds of rough might sound like a lot, but I expect that if I only add one more 12lb tumbler to my rotation, then I might easily go through that amount in less than 6 months. I'll call them direct if I don't see some of the sizes or shipping options listed, which you have mentioned.
Time to draft another post where I ask everyone about Trim saws, and Slab saws. I dug up some nice agate today, and am anxious to slice up some rocks now!
Good evening.
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gatorflash1
spending too much on rocks
Active in Delaware Mineralogical Society, Cabchon Grinding and Polishing, 2 Thumlers B's and a UV-18
Member since October 2018
Posts: 375
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Post by gatorflash1 on Jan 31, 2019 12:08:46 GMT -5
"Gator - Is that a snake in your hand?? or rocks? Cool if they are rocks. I will buy the book, thank you for the advice. You have a similar (stage 1) technique to Rob, which I am going to adopt soon. Point. Re-charge the grit after each 7-10 day cleaning. Got it. Also looks like you use the same rotary tumbler for (stage 1, 2). Interesting. When you have enough rocks for a (stage 2), then full clean out of the barrel, and rocks, and load up for (stage 2). You don't worry about grit contamination either. Interesting. OK."
Nevada Bill -
I worry very much about grit contamination between stages. That is why I do a really thorough cleaning of barrel at the end of each stage, just not with each session within the stage. The rocks get a good cleaning every time they come out of the barrel so I can do a good exam. I can use this rotary tumbler for all stages although I'm looking at an Thumlers Tumbler Ulra Vib 18 rotary to speed up the polishing stages.
That picture is a hand full of Madagascar banded agates which I'm a big fan of. Botswana banded agates are similar.
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