jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Feb 18, 2019 4:31:38 GMT -5
This is the inside of the barrel at the opening of a PVC tumbling barrel shortly after being raised to vertical position. I just did a clean out and added silicon carbide 60 with fresh clay and water and let the barrel run 10 minutes. The red color is the red clay carrier slurry and the black particles are heavier silicon carbide particles separating by gravity. It is a good practice to have well distributed abrasives and best from the beginning after adding fresh grit to get grind going. Dose was 2 cups of sand free clay for 8 pounds of rocks. But clay varies in sand content for instance so the dose may vary depending on your clay. Closer
|
|
|
Post by fernwood on Feb 18, 2019 5:08:28 GMT -5
So, the SIC did not break down much?
The clay is used as a carrier to ensure the grit touches all rock surfaces?
Just trying to understand the process.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Feb 18, 2019 6:42:16 GMT -5
So, the SIC did not break down much? The clay is used as a carrier to ensure the grit touches all rock surfaces? Just trying to understand the process. Yes, to ensure all (or most)) grit touches all(or most) rock surfaces. The photo is after running fresh SiC and fresh clay for 10 minutes. Adding the clay at start serves as a carrier to ensure all(or most)grit touches all(or most) rock surfaces at start up instead of waiting for a slurry. Making sure all SiC breaks down and no(or less)SiC 60 gets missed is best. Not good to find say a tablespoon of unused 60 grit after a week. If you are going to let the SiC 60(or any size grit)breakdown to say 500 grit you don't want any left over 60 grit particles left that may cause scratches if you are skipping 220 for instance. The clay will help scavenge all of the bigger particles and help get them in the mix.
|
|
|
Post by fernwood on Feb 18, 2019 6:46:48 GMT -5
Thanks, very helpful advice.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Feb 18, 2019 7:14:47 GMT -5
Thanks, very helpful advice. Basic concept but takes a bit of experience getting the correct dose for a given clay for your barrel size. Water ph effects dose too. Acid water mixed easier than alkaline water with my particular clay.
|
|
|
Post by HankRocks on Feb 18, 2019 8:22:12 GMT -5
Thanks, very helpful advice. Basic concept but takes a bit of experience getting the correct dose for a given clay for your barrel size. Water ph effects dose too. Acid water mixed easier than alkaline water with my particular clay. Instead of clay I am using dried slurry to help suspend the SiC grit. In my case I am only running one stage in SiC, either 46/70, 80 or for some softer preforms 220, and the dried SiC slurry is used in these. After that it's AO, 80 and 500 and I have separate saved AO run slurry for each. I never add any SiC slurry to an AO run. It's a little extra work to save 3 different slurries but I think it's paying dividends. When I open a barrel early, I can feel suspended grit, both the SiC and the AO on the inside of the lid so I know it's doing it's job.
|
|
gatorflash1
spending too much on rocks
Active in Delaware Mineralogical Society, Cabchon Grinding and Polishing, 2 Thumlers B's and a UV-18
Member since October 2018
Posts: 375
|
Post by gatorflash1 on Feb 18, 2019 8:26:15 GMT -5
James SP -
I'm confused as to the purpose of the clay. It seems to me it will keep the SiC from reaching the stones and creating a good cutting slurry. What exactly does the clay do other than create a quicker and much thicker sort of cutting slurry? None of the Tumbler recipes (RockTumbler.Com, etc.) I have found say to use clay with my TT Ultra Vib 18 when tumbling agates and related. Who's right and why? Thanks for your advice.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Feb 18, 2019 9:12:50 GMT -5
Basic concept but takes a bit of experience getting the correct dose for a given clay for your barrel size. Water ph effects dose too. Acid water mixed easier than alkaline water with my particular clay. Instead of clay I am using dried slurry to help suspend the SiC grit. In my case I am only running one stage in SiC, either 46/70, 80 or for some softer preforms 220, and the dried SiC slurry is used in these. After that it's AO, 80 and 500 and I have separate saved AO run slurry for each. I never add any SiC slurry to an AO run. It's a little extra work to save 3 different slurries but I think it's paying dividends. When I open a barrel early, I can feel suspended grit, both the SiC and the AO on the inside of the lid so I know it's doing it's job. Rock slurry and clay are about the same Henry. Both created in the same fashion, one by Henry and the other by nature's forces. Clay/used slurry best with SiC coarse-SiC 220- SiC 500 and only in rotary. No need in vibe(maybe ?)... Good idea keeping the SiC slurry for SiC.
|
|
|
Post by HankRocks on Feb 18, 2019 9:27:48 GMT -5
Instead of clay I am using dried slurry to help suspend the SiC grit. In my case I am only running one stage in SiC, either 46/70, 80 or for some softer preforms 220, and the dried SiC slurry is used in these. After that it's AO, 80 and 500 and I have separate saved AO run slurry for each. I never add any SiC slurry to an AO run. It's a little extra work to save 3 different slurries but I think it's paying dividends. When I open a barrel early, I can feel suspended grit, both the SiC and the AO on the inside of the lid so I know it's doing it's job. Rock slurry and clay are about the same Henry. Both created in the same fashion, one by Henry and the other by nature's forces. Clay/used slurry best with SiC coarse-SiC 220- SiC 500 and only in rotary. No need in vibe(maybe ?)... Good idea keeping the SiC slurry for SiC. I run everything in Rotary except for Polish so I use all 3 grades of slurry there. About 1 & 1/2 cups re-used polish/borax goes in the UV-18 which is a lot more than most use. When I pick up the 3 barrel multi-sonic from my rock/equipment supplier I may start using a lot less as the action seems much less violent than the UV-18. Not sure the extra polish in the UV-18 is really helping that much, but it's not hurting.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Feb 18, 2019 9:48:00 GMT -5
The clay is just another helpful aid gatorflash1. Many ways to skin a cat. I only use it in a rotary to suspend heavier coarse grits like SiC 30-46-60, etc and also SiC 220 and SiC 500. It is common in industry to use slurries in abrasive operations.(see colloidal slurry) Clay particles are extremely small(see close up photo), SiC particles many times larger so it doesn't interfere with grind unless it is too thick. It pulls rocks together via suction and increases grinding force allowing coarse SiC breakdown and rock shaping faster in my experience. It also replaces media for offering protection for delicate materials. Covington Engineering sells a clay additive to make instant slurry but back yard clay has worked well for me. Their reasons for using it:
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Feb 18, 2019 9:58:11 GMT -5
Rock slurry and clay are about the same Henry. Both created in the same fashion, one by Henry and the other by nature's forces. Clay/used slurry best with SiC coarse-SiC 220- SiC 500 and only in rotary. No need in vibe(maybe ?)... Good idea keeping the SiC slurry for SiC. I run everything in Rotary except for Polish so I use all 3 grades of slurry there. About 1 & 1/2 cups re-used polish/borax goes in the UV-18 which is a lot more than most use. When I pick up the 3 barrel multi-sonic from my rock/equipment supplier I may start using a lot less as the action seems much less violent than the UV-18. Not sure the extra polish in the UV-18 is really helping that much, but it's not hurting. The UV 18 is a large bowl vibe and the Mini Sonic has small tub hoppers. You will likely have better luck getting a gentle action in those small Mini Vibe tub hoppers. Sounds like you are successful with slurries. I believe they are the best way. They can take the place of media too, or at least reduce the amount of media needed.
|
|
gatorflash1
spending too much on rocks
Active in Delaware Mineralogical Society, Cabchon Grinding and Polishing, 2 Thumlers B's and a UV-18
Member since October 2018
Posts: 375
|
Post by gatorflash1 on Feb 18, 2019 14:38:34 GMT -5
Thanks to all for the good advice. I think I now understand the importance of using it, especially on softer rocks.
|
|
pizzano
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
|
Post by pizzano on Feb 18, 2019 14:57:03 GMT -5
James SP - I'm confused as to the purpose of the clay. It seems to me it will keep the SiC from reaching the stones and creating a good cutting slurry. What exactly does the clay do other than create a quicker and much thicker sort of cutting slurry? None of the Tumbler recipes (RockTumbler.Com, etc.) I have found say to use clay with my TT Ultra Vib 18 when tumbling agates and related. Who's right and why? Thanks for your advice. James knows his clay's.........he's mastered the use of such in rotary.......I took his advise and purchased the Old Miser some time ago. It's a little pricey, but you don't need to use much........it really helps getting slurry started in rotary with 60/90Sic thru 500AO.........I've even had success in bowl vibes with 120/220Sic and 400Sic. Don't need 1/2 as much in the bowl vibe and not necessary after 400 stages.......something to consider...!
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Feb 18, 2019 15:08:26 GMT -5
Thanks to all for the good advice. I think I now understand the importance of using it, especially on softer rocks. You are welcome gatorflash1. The clay idea initially came from a need to carry heavy SiC 4 and 8 in a rotary quite a while ago. As time went on the clay was found useful for many rotary applications including SiC 16 and 30. Then it helped circulate this cheap bulk SiC:
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Feb 18, 2019 15:17:13 GMT -5
Wow, using it in a vibe pizzano. Must try that sometime, good to hear it is working for you. Yes, $6.75/pound is expensive. You should try some local clay if it can be found near you. I have used clays from a wide variety of locations w/out issue. clay eroded off of granite is the finest for slurry(colloidal clay)
|
|
pizzano
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
|
Post by pizzano on Feb 18, 2019 16:13:12 GMT -5
Wow, using it in a vibe @pizanno. Must try that sometime, good to hear it is working for you. Yes, $6.75/pound is expensive. You should try some local clay if it can be found near you. I have used clays from a wide variety of locations w/out issue. clay eroded off of granite is the finest for slurry(colloidal clay) Ya, even in the bowl vibes.......mostly for the 120/220 stage......now that I'm skipping to 500AO right after 120/220. It has really speeded up the slurry development for almost everything in the +6mohs range.......in a full 5lb bowl nothing more than a teaspoon. Although, really considered best for rotary, as you know.
I started using it when I began vibe tumbling, out of frustration with consistent slurry issues. I've been reluctant to try some of the local clay around here, which is hard to find without other contaminates imbedded (mostly adobe), making a time consuming effort to get it clean enough to consider. That and I've really not spent much time hounding for clay.........lol
|
|
RWA3006
Cave Dweller
Member since March 2009
Posts: 4,174
|
Post by RWA3006 on Feb 18, 2019 21:30:07 GMT -5
Wow, using it in a vibe @pizanno. Must try that sometime, good to hear it is working for you. Yes, $6.75/pound is expensive. You should try some local clay if it can be found near you. I have used clays from a wide variety of locations w/out issue. clay eroded off of granite is the finest for slurry(colloidal clay) James, what are your thoughts on clay based kitty litter. It's easier, faster, cheaper for me to just buy kitty litter than go find clay.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Feb 19, 2019 8:39:57 GMT -5
Wow, using it in a vibe @pizanno. Must try that sometime, good to hear it is working for you. Yes, $6.75/pound is expensive. You should try some local clay if it can be found near you. I have used clays from a wide variety of locations w/out issue. clay eroded off of granite is the finest for slurry(colloidal clay) Ya, even in the bowl vibes.......mostly for the 120/220 stage......now that I'm skipping to 500AO right after 120/220. It has really speeded up the slurry development for almost everything in the +6mohs range.......in a full 5lb bowl nothing more than a teaspoon. Although, really considered best for rotary, as you know.
I started using it when I began vibe tumbling, out of frustration with consistent slurry issues. I've been reluctant to try some of the local clay around here, which is hard to find without other contaminates imbedded (mostly adobe), making a time consuming effort to get it clean enough to consider. That and I've really not spent much time hounding for clay.........lol
You mentioned contaminants pizzano in local clays. Quartz sand is usually found in all local clays and it is possibly abrasive to pre-polish and polish steps. In the rotary I use local clay only in SiC coarse-220-500. Wish it was contaminant free for finer steps. White kaolin clay is mined on a giant scale for suspension agents for abrasives, ink suspensions in paint, separating mined ore particles etc. Kaolin is heavily refined to remove contaminants, namely silica. I had a hard time buying refined kaolin because the minimum order is a 3000 pound bulk bag lol. A teaspoon of Miser in a vibe makes sense. Apparently is is from a pure source near Redland CA. Small doses of pure clay can makes a lot of slurry. Medium sized kaolin pit 'Refined' by evaporation. Red kaolin clay precipitated out of a run-off catchment pit is about free of contaminants. Anxious to try this with polish.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Feb 19, 2019 9:30:24 GMT -5
Wow, using it in a vibe @pizanno. Must try that sometime, good to hear it is working for you. Yes, $6.75/pound is expensive. You should try some local clay if it can be found near you. I have used clays from a wide variety of locations w/out issue. clay eroded off of granite is the finest for slurry(colloidal clay) James, what are your thoughts on clay based kitty litter. It's easier, faster, cheaper for me to just buy kitty litter than go find clay. If this particular brand of kitty litter will distribute the grit similar to the this grit in photo then certainly . Or you can shut the rotary down and open it. Pinch some slurry and you should feel grit between your fingers. Here is a side note - clay slurry has allowed skipping the SiC 220 step in (my 30 RPM) rotary, why ? ***People don't always consider UNUSED grit which can leave scratches or poor finish at the end.*** Because the clay is effective at grabbing all the SiC 60 grit(for example) and breaking it down in 2 days, 3 days absolutely. After 7 days SiC 60 is broken down to about SiC 500 with rarely any SiC 60 particles left. BUT, at about day 3 I remove the cap and wash any captured SiC 60 particles so they will get circulated in the mix and break down. And if using SiC 30 it breaks down in 3 days, 4 days absolutely. After 7 to 10 days SiC 30 is down to SiC 500, no need to do the SiC 220 step. It is redundant, move directly to SiC 500. BUT, I still remove the cap at 3 to 4 days and wash captured SiC 30 particles to get them in circulation to be safe. No big deal but it saves a clean out and a week running SiC 220 of which a pound has lasted 4 years because it rarely gets used. The same efficient scavenging that clay offers has allowed using the vibe directly out of the rotary SiC 500 step.
|
|
RWA3006
Cave Dweller
Member since March 2009
Posts: 4,174
|
Post by RWA3006 on Feb 19, 2019 9:39:27 GMT -5
This conversation reminds me of my oil field days on the drilling rigs. We used bentonite clay to pump down the pipe and it would pick up the drilling debris in suspension and bring it to the top of the hole where it would be run over a shaker screen and return down the pipe.
|
|