epidote
off to a rocking start
Member since February 2019
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Post by epidote on Feb 18, 2019 16:29:46 GMT -5
I just received a 8lb capacity vibratory tumbler (TV-10) and am in the process of tumbling my first batch of rocks. I loaded it with 7lbs of mostly epidote, 12 Tbs 120/220 grit and enough water to get it to cling to the rocks. Ive been checking every few hours and adding a few sprays of water as needed, but after about 18 hours when I went to add a little more water I noticed the rocks were not rotating in the expected cyclonic motion they had been for the previous 18 hours. I noticed there is a lot of sludge in the barrel, and not sure if there's too much sludge/water to allow the tumbler to vibrate correctly and churn the rocks or if I missed something? From what I've read most run a vibratory tumbler for 24-48 hours before cleaning out the barrel and adding fresh grit, or is that inaccurate? Or is it normally run 24 hours, then cleaned out, fresh grit added, and run for another 24 hours?
Video of tumbler (lack of) action
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Feb 18, 2019 17:06:37 GMT -5
Looks way too wet to me. It is hard to recover from too much water without starting over.
Chuck
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pizzano
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Post by pizzano on Feb 18, 2019 17:14:05 GMT -5
Looks like a very common error.......to much water. One of the very first indications there is to much liquid is just what you have experienced, lack of proper bowl circulation. If your media is also "clumping" or developing a "sludge" and not sticking to the stones, you may have initially added to much media and not let it completely adhere to the stones.
It's tricky, it takes a little practice and patients to get a good slurry started in a vibe.
Here's some tips I've found to work.
Start with rinsed wet stones and filler (ceramics).....not soaked Bowl volume 3/4 to full......important Turn the vibe on and let stones circulate for a couple on min's Start adding your media a little at a time.....total amount will vary depending on stone volume and type As you add media, the circulation will change.......should start slowing down and stones should start rolling rather than spinning around Add water (I use a spray bottle).........the rolling action will change......let it slow down some A little to dry at first is ok.....let the media start clinging to the stones.....should cover every stone completely Let run for awhile......keep checking.......could take an hour or more......could take less if a thickener is used (clay) not cat litter Once the rotation starts to bog down, add a spray of water.......should speed up a little without effecting the media cover on the stones Let it run and it should start developing a creamy (pudding like) slurry.........it will take time Keep checking every couple of hours.......once it gets creamy, only add water (a little) to keep the rolling action moving at a constant pace
Bowl vibes take baby-sitting until that creamy action gets going.........after that every 4 to 6 hours of inspection is common. Don't be afraid to use a plastic spoon (I use chop-sticks) to stir the bowl up occasionally in the beginning.........but once that slurry develops, you should not need to help it.
Hope this helps a little........and welcome to the bowl vibe adventure.....!
Note:
Chuck is correct.......to wet is a problem. More often than not, with bowl vibes (not like rotary), starting all over will be the easiest and quickest way to recover.....been there, done that more than I care to say (at least in my beginning days)........adding more media or filler will only compound the rotation issue. Seldom will, what media you have added to "thicken" the solution, adhere properly to the stones.........it will just drift around and sludge up......just like what you have experienced.
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Post by aDave on Feb 18, 2019 17:28:26 GMT -5
Joe pizzano, I'm asking since you have a bowl vibe - How is the OP's grit amount? 12 TBSP seems like alot, but I'm not familiar with the product.
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epidote
off to a rocking start
Member since February 2019
Posts: 6
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Post by epidote on Feb 18, 2019 17:53:31 GMT -5
It looks wet but it's really isn't, it's more of a very thick sludge. I'm in the process of trying to scoop it out and it's thick like super thick cake frosting. Up until the last time i checked (~18 hours) it was churning the rocks in a cyclonic motion just i've seen in videos online.
The instructions I was given said 6 oz of grit, which i took to meaning 12 Tbs. I may have doubled the amount needed converting oz to Tbs. Not sure how that affects how quickly the sludge would accumulate. It seemed to be working fine though until about 18 hours in.
I don't have any ceramic media currently. I ordered some and hoping it gets here in a week. I thought I had enough small epidote pieces, along with the big ones, to be able to do a load before the ceramic media came. The only other rock i have to tumble is amazonite, sodalite, and lapis lazuli which i know require ceramic media since they're softer, and they're too soft to combine with epidote.
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pizzano
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Post by pizzano on Feb 18, 2019 18:03:22 GMT -5
Joe pizzano , I'm asking since you have a bowl vibe - How is the OP's grit amount? 12 TBSP seems like alot, but I'm not familiar with the product. I'll base my response only on what I've learned here from experienced bowl vibe folks and personal "frustrations" I experienced in the beginning........throw the manufactures suggestions out the window or use them to take notes on........
No two batches of any type of stone will slurry up in the same manner.......close, but seldom in the same time frame or manner.......as for amount of media, depends on a few factors........stone type, filler type, bowl volume amount and media gage (120/220 Sic, 400Sic, 400AO.....ect, ect. ect.)
A "rule of thumb" and that's all it is.......1 tablespoon per pound of stone/filler.........the amount actually consumed during the process of each stage will vary on how well the media is covering the stone surface, the speed (rotation) circulation the cycle settles into and the size of stone/filler being processed.......!
That's why I've always stated "no two batches will slurry up the same"..........I have not found using different media manufactured brands making much difference. There will be an obvious difference in the slurry development if using AO over Sic.......as well as during the different cycle stages. But, properly cultured and attended to, the amount of media needed will depend on how well the slurry develops once settled in.........1 tablespoon per pound of stone/filler is a good start......sometimes more.....sometimes less......and if a clay thickener is used, depending on the cycle stage, the media amount can vary as well.
That's why quite a few folks shy away from bowl vibes........they are "needy" and require a certain amount patience and oversight.........but once mastered, a really good and fast medium grind thru polishing tool.
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Post by aDave on Feb 18, 2019 18:03:43 GMT -5
The instructions I was given said 6 oz of grit, which i took to meaning 12 Tbs. I may have doubled the amount needed converting oz to Tbs. Not sure how that affects how quickly the sludge would accumulate. It seemed to be working fine though until about 18 hours in. You may be right about the amount, but I was just curious. Like I mentioned, I don't have the machine, but I wouldn't have thought a vibe would be using that much grit. Guess I learned something.
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pizzano
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Post by pizzano on Feb 18, 2019 18:15:51 GMT -5
It looks wet but it's really isn't, it's more of a very thick sludge. I'm in the process of trying to scoop it out and it's thick like super thick cake frosting. Up until the last time i checked (~18 hours) it was churning the rocks in a cyclonic motion just i've seen in videos online. The instructions I was given said 6 oz of grit, which i took to meaning 12 Tbs. I may have doubled the amount needed converting oz to Tbs. Not sure how that affects how quickly the sludge would accumulate. It seemed to be working fine though until about 18 hours in. I don't have any ceramic media currently. I ordered some and hoping it gets here in a week. I thought I had enough small epidote pieces, along with the big ones, to be able to do a load before the ceramic media came. The only other rock i have to tumble is amazonite, sodalite, and lapis lazuli which i know require ceramic media since they're softer, and they're too soft to combine with epidote. You may have gotten a little lucky in the beginning.........but over time (10 to 12 hours) to much media will start raising it's little head and sludge up, settle to the bottom of the bowl and slow things down quickly.........that is due, in-part, of the grinding action it is performing, adding more grit to the solution which is thickening everything up........like it suppose to.........If it were me (and it has been), I'd dump the batch, clean everything up real well, and start over. Otherwise, you just may end up chasing a good slurry consistency through the entire grinding cycle........way to much hassle IMHO.......!
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Post by Jugglerguy on Feb 19, 2019 6:30:55 GMT -5
pizzano, what do you mean by “media”? I have always used that word to mean the ceramics that are added. You seem to be using it to mean “grit”, but I might be misunderstanding.
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epidote
off to a rocking start
Member since February 2019
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Post by epidote on Feb 19, 2019 9:55:07 GMT -5
It looks like I didn't completely destroy the first batch, but really need the ceramic media to get a more even grind on everything. There's a few small rocks that may have shattered to pieces since i can't find them, but the rest look like they got their fair share of grit. I'm amazed at how nice the really small pieces look since those are the ones I normally throw back when I'm rock hounding. ibb.co/8sspQnSibb.co/xghFQYDibb.co/7YD2Sw7
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pizzano
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Post by pizzano on Feb 19, 2019 12:23:16 GMT -5
pizzano , what do you mean by “media”? I have always used that word to mean the ceramics that are added. You seem to be using it to mean “grit”, but I might be misunderstanding. I understand in the art's and craft world, the term "media-medium" to mean any of the materials used to create the work outside of the tools.......when I try to explain a process or method related to our "art/craft work", it's easier for me to use that term to refer to "grit/polish" and specifically state stone/rock/ceramics/filler as the materials either being the subject matter or enhancers added with the subjects to provide volume/cushion or supporting grind action........"grit" means to me the bi-product developed as a result of the "media" and "fillers" doing their jobs on the subject matter.
It's been my experience, "more often than not", when speaking with a vendor or discussing lapidary with experienced craftsmen, the term "media" is usually interchangeable, but most understand and use the term "media" in the same fashion as I have.
Sorry for a more "technical" explanation........It's the way I'm wired........
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Post by Jugglerguy on Feb 19, 2019 15:06:06 GMT -5
pizzano , what do you mean by “media”? I have always used that word to mean the ceramics that are added. You seem to be using it to mean “grit”, but I might be misunderstanding. I understand in the art's and craft world, the term "media-medium" to mean any of the materials used to create the work outside of the tools.......when I try to explain a process or method related to our "art/craft work", it's easier for me to use that term to refer to "grit/polish" and specifically state stone/rock/ceramics/filler as the materials either being the subject matter or enhancers added with the subjects to provide volume/cushion or supporting grind action........"grit" means to me the bi-product developed as a result of the "media" and "fillers" doing their jobs on the subject matter.
It's been my experience, "more often than not", when speaking with a vendor or discussing lapidary with experienced craftsmen, the term "media" is usually interchangeable, but most understand and use the term "media" in the same fashion as I have.
Sorry for a more "technical" explanation........It's the way I'm wired........
Please don’t think I’m trying to start an argument, because that’s not my intention. I really was just confused. I don’t know much about the arts and crafts world, but I’ve been actively involved in this site since 2012. In my experience here, I’ve seen these uses of terms: Grit - the silicon carbide or aluminum oxide used to grind rocks Media - ceramic or plastic pieces used in tumbling Slurry - the mixture of water, grit and rock particles that is produced by tumbling rocks It’s entirely possible that I just didn’t know that the words could be used in other ways, which is why I asked.
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pizzano
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Post by pizzano on Feb 19, 2019 16:50:57 GMT -5
No problem Rob.........there are some here that would take exception to the term "Art's & Craft's" as well......we're on the same page, maybe a different paragraph. But communicating just the same.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 19, 2019 17:26:16 GMT -5
As mentioned, too much water and best to start over.
I only use 2 tablespoons of 220 in my 8 pound vibe. And one tablespoon for 500-1000-polish. Vibes just don't need much abrasive or water.
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gatorflash1
spending too much on rocks
Active in Delaware Mineralogical Society, Cabchon Grinding and Polishing, 2 Thumlers B's and a UV-18
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Post by gatorflash1 on Feb 19, 2019 17:36:53 GMT -5
The instructions I was given said 6 oz of grit, which i took to meaning 12 Tbs. I may have doubled the amount needed converting oz to Tbs. Not sure how that affects how quickly the sludge would accumulate. It seemed to be working fine though until about 18 hours in. You may be right about the amount, but I was just curious. Like I mentioned, I don't have the machine, but I wouldn't have thought a vibe would be using that much grit. Guess I learned something. I think you doubled the grit. 1 oz. equals 1 tablespoon.
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Post by gmitch067 on Feb 19, 2019 17:45:01 GMT -5
If you don't want to start over... just start pushing dry paper towels down around the center cone, pushing down to the bottom in the same direction as the usual tumbling action (wear gloves... very messy) The paper towels soak up the extra water and a bit+ of the slurry. If too thick, add some new water and follow-up with a few more dry paper towels. Pull out the spent towels and repeat. Eventually the action will resume. With the amount of grit you started with, there is probably plenty left over to continue the process.
Even after a couple years, I sometimes get carried away and add too much water to my Thumler UV-18.
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Post by aDave on Feb 19, 2019 18:05:05 GMT -5
You may be right about the amount, but I was just curious. Like I mentioned, I don't have the machine, but I wouldn't have thought a vibe would be using that much grit. Guess I learned something. I think you doubled the grit. 1 oz. equals 1 tablespoon. I looked up the conversion when the OP brought up the amount he used. Just about every reference I found indicated that 2 TBSP is equivalent to 1 oz (in both liquid and dry measure). www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/convert/measurements.html
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gatorflash1
spending too much on rocks
Active in Delaware Mineralogical Society, Cabchon Grinding and Polishing, 2 Thumlers B's and a UV-18
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Post by gatorflash1 on Feb 19, 2019 19:03:55 GMT -5
The one ounce equals two tablespoons is for water, not grit which I think is much denser and heavier than water. Someone with a scale please with one tablespoon of 60-90 SiC and tell me how much it weighs in ounces. Thanks. rocktumbler.com/thumlers/vibratory-tumbler-guide/This might be helpful with the problem. Grit Usage Per Barrel Common Tumblers Grit Per Barrel (Tablespoons) 3 Pound Barrel Thumler Model T, A-R1. Lortone 3A, 33B 3 TBSP 6 Pound Barrel Thumler A-R6, Lortone QT6 6 TBSP 15 Pound Barrel Thumler Model B, A-R12 15 TBSP
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epidote
off to a rocking start
Member since February 2019
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Post by epidote on Feb 22, 2019 11:35:44 GMT -5
Thanks for everyone's input! I received all my supplies yesterday so going to give it another go today. I'll try to find a little scale and measure out 1 Tbs of the 120/220 grit to see how much it actually weighs when I set up the tumbler.
It seems like quite a bit of the epidote I have isn't very solid, and i was able to break apart a few pieces along cracks that formed during tumbling. May have been due to the aggressive action once the rotation stopped, but think it's better to try a different rock.
Anyone have recommendations on what rock is better for a first tumble? I read quartz is a good starter. I don't have quartz but I do have tiger eye but I would think it might be a little more difficult to polish and get a good chatoyancy for a first timer. Only other hard rock I have is red jasper, yellow jasper, zebra jasper, and some agates. Everything else is much softer, and likely more difficult (sodalite, lapis lazuli, amazonite, unakite).
I'm still in the process of procuring a new tumbler bowl for the polish stage, so may be a while before I make it through all 4 stages of tumbling. The only polish I currently have is an aluminum oxide, which i'm reading doesn't work on everything. So much to learn......
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gatorflash1
spending too much on rocks
Active in Delaware Mineralogical Society, Cabchon Grinding and Polishing, 2 Thumlers B's and a UV-18
Member since October 2018
Posts: 375
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Post by gatorflash1 on Feb 23, 2019 9:45:26 GMT -5
Generally jasper and agate are good for first time tumbling. If you get the book Modern Rock Tumbling you will see info about tumbling various types of rocks, and a bunch of other useful information. I'm a beginner tumbler, but I have lots of experience with a big cab machine, and like the author's engineering writing style. I'm currently working on granite pieces that I picked up for free from the local granite counter shops in the area. rocktumbler.com/book.shtml
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