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Post by Rockindad on Mar 6, 2019 16:46:24 GMT -5
I have read hundreds of posts about not running your vibe too wet, and during coarser grits I can certainly see why this is counterproductive and can even prematurely wear on the bowl. However I have stumbled across something that I have not read about and wondered if anyone did this on purpose. Does anyone run their vibe "too wet" intentionally during polish?
We currently have Sodalite in a UV-10 (only about 2 lbs. of rocks, the rest mixed ceramics) and the slurry is what most people would consider much too wet. I was going to let it run without the top on for a good while to dry it out a bit but as I sat there watching it I changed my mind. Instead of the very aggressive action that I see when there is much less water, the action was very gentle. Yes, the material is still fully circulating, just nice and slow. Even though this is what I was looking for due to the challenges of this stone I must admit this was done inadvertently. I pulled a few pieces out and they look promising so i put the lid back on and decided to go with it. If this works I will be trying this on softer stones as well.
A couple of other observations: 1) It would be really easy to overdo this resulting in a lack of adequate movement. 2) This may be working because of the amount of smaller pieces (ceramics) in the mix. I am not confident this would work if the load ratio was reversed.
More experimenting to be done.
Al
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Post by greig on Mar 6, 2019 18:44:07 GMT -5
Interesting. End of the day, if it is working for you, then great. I would have thought it would take longer to get a polish because the stones are swimming. It is always fun to change things up a bit, just to see what hapopens.
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Post by Rockindad on Mar 6, 2019 20:35:59 GMT -5
Interesting. End of the day, if it is working for you, then great. I would have thought it would take longer to get a polish because the stones are swimming. It is always fun to change things up a bit, just to see what hapopens. I would say just short of swimming (such as I see when i put a squirt of soap and much water in 15 minutes before a clean out) as they still maintain their regular motion, just much slower. The polish slurry is mostly on the bottom of the bowl but the media and stones are circulating such that they dip down for a bath and come back to the top. We took out two pieces to rinse/dry to check out the polish and were very happy with the results. If it wasn't for this little experiment we would pull them out, give them a quick burnish and call it a day. Hope we don't regret it, but curious minds want to watch this a bit more. Al P.S. I like your YouTube channel and have watched many of your videos, they have been a big help!
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gatorflash1
spending too much on rocks
Active in Delaware Mineralogical Society, Cabchon Grinding and Polishing, 2 Thumlers B's and a UV-18
Member since October 2018
Posts: 375
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Post by gatorflash1 on Mar 9, 2019 8:22:09 GMT -5
I have read hundreds of posts about not running your vibe too wet, and during coarser grits I can certainly see why this is counterproductive and can even prematurely wear on the bowl. However I have stumbled across something that I have not read about and wondered if anyone did this on purpose. Does anyone run their vibe "too wet" intentionally during polish? We currently have Sodalite in a UV-10 (only about 2 lbs. of rocks, the rest mixed ceramics) and the slurry is what most people would consider much too wet. I was going to let it run without the top on for a good while to dry it out a bit but as I sat there watching it I changed my mind. Instead of the very aggressive action that I see when there is much less water, the action was very gentle. Yes, the material is still fully circulating, just nice and slow. Even though this is what I was looking for due to the challenges of this stone I must admit this was done inadvertently. I pulled a few pieces out and they look promising so i put the lid back on and decided to go with it. If this works I will be trying this on softer stones as well. A couple of other observations: 1) It would be really easy to overdo this resulting in a lack of adequate movement. 2) This may be working because of the amount of smaller pieces (ceramics) in the mix. I am not confident this would work if the load ratio was reversed. More experimenting to be done. Al Al Dad - It is just my personal opinion but I think tumbler bowls are too expensive to be running course 60-90 atage 1. My UV-18 bowls are over $100. I have one that I use for stage 2, and another for stages 3 & 4 & burnishing with 24 hours of cleaning between stages. I use the TT mod B rotary for all course grinding stage 1 with good success using 60 SiC. It takes several weeks at stage 1 and if you do a good weekly exam you will know when the rocks are is ready to move on to the finish grind stage 2 or must continue stage 1, or can get tossed into the junky rock pile. I try to be careful about not using too much water in the vib. It takes some attention looking at the vib batch about every 12 hours. I want enough water to keep the stones covered in slurry but not tp be slopping around just wasting time. Just my opinion working with harder rocks. I have never tumbled Sodalite which is in the Mohs 5-6 range so it is somewhat on the soft stone side. Nice looking though with it's blue coloring. Please let me know how it turns out for you. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/86513/first-tumble-loss-rock-rotation
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Mar 9, 2019 9:20:46 GMT -5
I run soft glass with thick and sticky and am guaranteed the slurry is carrying the abrasives and protecting. Sugar stays like syrup when adding a bit of water on longer 24 hour intervals. I will say that there is a point where if the slurry is too wet (and too thin) I get a batch of frosted glass in an hour's time. Once you start to have standing water in the bottom of the hopper it seems to have too much damping for abrasion. But I have no experience running with standing water/slurry. Thinking out loud.. When the stones pass thru the bottom of the vibe there should be maximum grind force being the weight of the batch is pressing down as opposed to at the top of the batch where they are just floating across the pile with no weight on them. Having liquid down there may slow you down. The Lot-O has a tall hopper in relation to it's entire size. 5 inches deep, 6 inches diameter. Effective vibe. If Lot-O made a model say doubled in proportion, 10 inches deep and 12 inches in diameter it is likely that it would increase abrasion speed a lot due to added weight on the batch. It would be interesting to compare grind/polish rates of these Vibrasonic hoppers. Namely the tall VT-35 pound hopper which other than being squarish resembles the Lot-O hopper. Both Lot-O and the Vibrasonic have parallel shaft vibration generators. Please post your findings Rockindad
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lookatthat
Cave Dweller
Whatever there is to be found.
Member since May 2017
Posts: 1,360
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Post by lookatthat on Mar 9, 2019 10:18:07 GMT -5
Sounds like you are going for a quality finish on these more delicate stones and not worried about time. I am curious to see how this will come out.
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Post by Rockindad on Mar 9, 2019 14:59:10 GMT -5
I have read hundreds of posts about not running your vibe too wet, and during coarser grits I can certainly see why this is counterproductive and can even prematurely wear on the bowl. However I have stumbled across something that I have not read about and wondered if anyone did this on purpose. Does anyone run their vibe "too wet" intentionally during polish? We currently have Sodalite in a UV-10 (only about 2 lbs. of rocks, the rest mixed ceramics) and the slurry is what most people would consider much too wet. I was going to let it run without the top on for a good while to dry it out a bit but as I sat there watching it I changed my mind. Instead of the very aggressive action that I see when there is much less water, the action was very gentle. Yes, the material is still fully circulating, just nice and slow. Even though this is what I was looking for due to the challenges of this stone I must admit this was done inadvertently. I pulled a few pieces out and they look promising so i put the lid back on and decided to go with it. If this works I will be trying this on softer stones as well. A couple of other observations: 1) It would be really easy to overdo this resulting in a lack of adequate movement. 2) This may be working because of the amount of smaller pieces (ceramics) in the mix. I am not confident this would work if the load ratio was reversed. More experimenting to be done. Al Al Dad - It is just my personal opinion but I think tumbler bowls are too expensive to be running course 60-90 atage 1. My UV-18 bowls are over $100. I have one that I use for stage 2, and another for stages 3 & 4 & burnishing with 24 hours of cleaning between stages. I use the TT mod B rotary for all course grinding stage 1 with good success using 60 SiC. It takes several weeks at stage 1 and if you do a good weekly exam you will know when the rocks are is ready to move on to the finish grind stage 2 or must continue stage 1, or can get tossed into the junky rock pile. I try to be careful about not using too much water in the vib. It takes some attention looking at the vib batch about every 12 hours. I want enough water to keep the stones covered in slurry but not tp be slopping around just wasting time. Just my opinion working with harder rocks. I have never tumbled Sodalite which is in the Mohs 5-6 range so it is somewhat on the soft stone side. Nice looking though with it's blue coloring. Please let me know how it turns out for you. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/86513/first-tumble-loss-rock-rotationGator, I do not use 60/90 in the vibe, by "coarser" i meant 120/220, 500, etc. as I agree with you about the cost of the bowls. In the video you linked the motion has all but stopped and there are clearly issues with "way too much" water as the liquid is very present at the top of the bowl. In my case there is a "reservoir" of water that the media dips in and comes out of but does not stop any of the normal motions, just slows it down and makes the whole operation more gentle. Looking at the bowl with the lid off you do not see pooling water (looks normal except for being slower) but if you pull back the media and rocks with a spoon you can see the reservoir. Al
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Post by Rockindad on Mar 9, 2019 15:12:16 GMT -5
I run soft glass with thick and sticky and am guaranteed the slurry is carrying the abrasives and protecting. Sugar stays like syrup when adding a bit of water on longer 24 hour intervals. I will say that there is a point where if the slurry is too wet (and too thin) I get a batch of frosted glass in an hour's time. Once you start to have standing water in the bottom of the hopper it seems to have too much damping for abrasion. But I have no experience running with standing water/slurry. Thinking out loud.. When the stones pass thru the bottom of the vibe there should be maximum grind force being the weight of the batch is pressing down as opposed to at the top of the batch where they are just floating across the pile with no weight on them. Having liquid down there may slow you down. The Lot-O has a tall hopper in relation to it's entire size. 5 inches deep, 6 inches diameter. Effective vibe. If Lot-O made a model say doubled in proportion, 10 inches deep and 12 inches in diameter it is likely that it would increase abrasion speed a lot due to added weight on the batch. It would be interesting to compare grind/polish rates of these Vibrasonic hoppers. Namely the tall VT-35 pound hopper which other than being squarish resembles the Lot-O hopper. Both Lot-O and the Vibrasonic have parallel shaft vibration generators. Please post your findings Rockindad James, I actually did use sugar and this is what inadvertently led me down this path. Before we really got into tumbling I was reading some photocopies of some 50's-60's era pamphlets online (which i did not bookmark and cannot find) which talked about sugar and then when I found this forum and your posts about using sugar I filed it away for future use. I likely added too much (10 tablespoons to 10 lbs. of material) and did not like how it was responding. In the UV-10 when the mix is too dry early on, before a slurry forms, the vertical action is super aggressive. After the time spent getting them to this stage and looking promising I overdid it on the water to protect the Sodalite. Will definitely post results as we checked on them today and are pretty pleased. Al
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Post by Rockindad on Mar 9, 2019 15:14:41 GMT -5
Sounds like you are going for a quality finish on these more delicate stones and not worried about time. I am curious to see how this will come out. That is definitely the goal. What's another day or few if you can attain better results?!?! Will post outcome, thanks. Al
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Mar 10, 2019 9:56:46 GMT -5
The use of sugar was suggested by an elder lapidarian friend that had a lot of tricks up his sleeve Rockindad. He also thickened rotary slurries with newspaper. The 1960's was a technical revolution and the heyday for lapidary.
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Post by Rockindad on Mar 10, 2019 13:22:43 GMT -5
The use of sugar was suggested by an elder lapidarian friend that had a lot of tricks up his sleeve Rockindad . He also thickened rotary slurries with newspaper. The 1960's was a technical revolution and the heyday for lapidary. Brings to mind "Nothing new under the sun". Although I prefer "Not much new under the sun" as you can always strive for better results whether that means a superior final product, more efficient means or both. Al
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Mar 11, 2019 8:24:06 GMT -5
The use of sugar was suggested by an elder lapidarian friend that had a lot of tricks up his sleeve Rockindad . He also thickened rotary slurries with newspaper. The 1960's was a technical revolution and the heyday for lapidary. Brings to mind "Nothing new under the sun". Although I prefer "Not much new under the sun" as you can always strive for better results whether that means a superior final product, more efficient means or both. Al Efficiency and redundant steps when tumbling all interesting. The vintage lapidarian folks brought liberation in techniques to the table. To me tumbling is a rock you shape, and then you finish. Two very different processes. Grading a construction site, unlike tumbling, 95% of the work in most grading sites is last 5% of the final leveling. Tumbling can utilize extreme individual abrasive reduction unlike most abrasive processes. If you scavenge all of the abrasive in each step(no left over large particles) the breakdown process can save a lot of steps finishing.
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Post by 1dave on Mar 11, 2019 8:45:19 GMT -5
Tumbling:
1. Shaping. 2. Polishing.
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Post by Rockindad on Mar 11, 2019 16:57:25 GMT -5
Tumbling: 1. Shaping. 2. Polishing. I hope to be a little more efficient than that
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Post by Rockindad on Mar 11, 2019 20:22:24 GMT -5
Just posted a couple of pics from this load in the thread "Sodalite Finished, Decent Results". The pics stink but the rocks are pretty good. Did the excess water help? I wouldn't commit to that until I could replicate it. I will try this again in the future as I have seen enough to give it another try- this time intentionally.
Al
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