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Post by gmitch067 on Mar 14, 2019 17:30:39 GMT -5
I am still getting used to using my All-U-Need flat lap, using the following disks: Rough grinding: 60 grit (also have 80 grit), 180 grit, 240 grit Shaping: 345 grit, 600 grit, 1200 grit, and 3000 grit Polishing: Pre-charged Cerium Oxide disks or diamond paste on Tech-10 pads (no water feed); Or I use TO or CO on Tech-10 pads (creating a slurry with water, and using a small spray bottle to re-wet). hitechdiamond.com/shop/all-u-need-lap-machine-rock-mineral-model/The operation and procedures are good all the way up to polishing… then I fall flat on my face. Every time, the polish leaves a hardened deposit behind that is near impossible to buff off. If the cab has any pits or pores that can fill up with hardened polish (I am presently working with Green Aventurine with heavy inclusions of mica... lots of pores around the inclusions... ), I might as well go back to 240 or 345 grit disks and re-do the cab… throwing it into the Lot-O for the final polishing. What am I doing wrong???
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Mar 14, 2019 19:06:03 GMT -5
Glenn, I'm not sure if this is the case or not, but I never use the Tech-10 pads with anything other than diamond. I use leather mainly for my CeOx, and occasionally felt and CeOx. I don't think the Tech-10's have the ability to stay moist enough and they probably dry out very quickly generating a lot of localized heat. I think what you're experiencing may be "fried on" oxide on your stones.
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Post by MsAli on Mar 14, 2019 19:17:35 GMT -5
I'm using the felt polishing pad it came with and the diamond paste with no issues.
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hummingbirdstones2
fully equipped rock polisher
Vince A., 1958-2023
Member since August 2018
Posts: 1,461
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Post by hummingbirdstones2 on Mar 14, 2019 20:39:12 GMT -5
Maybe a slurry with more cerium than necessary? I remember buildup like that when I started because I figured more was better.
A felt pad might work better for the oxides, because it will hold the polish longer once it's charged up.
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Post by gmitch067 on Mar 14, 2019 21:17:41 GMT -5
Glenn, I'm not sure if this is the case or not, but I never use the Tech-10 pads with anything other than diamond. I use leather mainly for my CeOx, and occasionally felt and CeOx. I don't think the Tech-10's have the ability to stay moist enough and they probably dry out very quickly generating a lot of localized heat. I think what you're experiencing may be "fried on" oxide on your stones. Thank you for the advice hummingbirdstones , MsAli , and hummingbirdstones2 Sooo... Because my cabs look like they just came out of the kiln, I am using too little water which is causing the over-heating, causing the polish to glaze... sounds about right. How do you recover from the "fried on" effect? Can the glaze soften by soaking the cab in anything (hot water with borax, alcohol, acetone) without destroying the stone? I guess I am most aggravated at those areas (of the cab) where the glaze has sunken into the pores of the inclusions. Is there a way to get that out without having to re-grind the cab? I have 3 of the pre-charged cerium oxide disks (The Rock Shed accidentally sent 3 of them when I ordered Tech-10 pads... which I kept anyway). In the vids I noted the water drip was turned off. Should I begin to use the water anyway (with these pads) to cut down on the heat? (for that matter...) Should I be using the water drip on the Tech-10 pads? (Not on leather though... per your previous advice). I might as well admit it... I charged my first Tech-10 pad with a full 5 mg of diamond paste (more is better... right???)... another mess... I guess I could have used it less liberally... My first attempt to use leather failed rather badly. I used the soft suede leather (the real stuff dancers use on the bottoms of their shoes) over a foam pad attached to the master lap disk... very bulky. When the soft leather became wet it became swollen and uneven... caused the cab to jump around and grab until it separated from the dop stick (black wax). It scratched the cab and perpetuated a major garage clean-up trying to find it. I have since purchased hard leather disks... just have to put them on the master disk and give 'em a try.
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Mar 14, 2019 22:04:47 GMT -5
Ok, one at a time.
I'm thinking you'll probably have to resand the glaze stuff off. Do it with a one of the higher grits. Try 3,000 and if that is too slow, go down to 1,200. That should do it. The stuff that's in voids .... I don't know, truthfully. you can try soaking it in something. I don't think water will work, but you can try. Also, if you have an electric toothbrush and have an old head, try that on the stuff in the voids. I used my Sonicare with an old brush head before and that worked ok. Now if that happens to me on a stone that I know can withstand the ultrasonic, I'll throw it in there right away.
I would suggest that when you have stones that have pits or voids that you use diamond on those stones to avoid that problem. Cerium will get in them no matter what type of polishing pad you use. Use the Tech-10 (or a felt pad) with it. A small dot in 5 or 6 evenly spaced spots around the pad. Use your finger to spread it around. Then put a couple of drops of extender fluid on the pad and spread that around. Work the diamond around on the pad with your cab as you're polishing it. Add another drop of extender fluid when you feel you need it. You will need to use more on a new pad at first because it will soak in and spread out on the pad. Always use extender fluid with diamond. Add more diamond paste, a dot or two at a time, when you feel it's not polishing as quickly. Eventually you will have the pad loaded with diamond (fully charged) and won't have to add diamond as often. Same with the extender fluid. The more you do it, the better you'll be able to tell when you need to add stuff.
I have never used the cerium pre-charged discs, so I can't speak to those. I know faceters use them to polish their faceted stones, but I can't see using them for cabs, really. You would definitely need to use some water with them, but I think a spritz with a spray bottle is probably how those are used. Add another spritz when they start to get too dry. You don't want them flooded because you'll just be hydroplaning on the disc instead of polishing and probably washing the cerium off of it. Too dry and it will scratch your stone.
Use water with any oxide polish, but spritz it on, don't use the drip. Even the Tech-10. Oxides need water to make a slurry in order to work. When you feel the stone starting to drag, that's when the polishing is happening and you will need to spritz again quickly after that. Just a short spritz or two, not 10 spritzes all the way around. That's too much water and your oxide will just fling off your lap.
I'm not going to say anything about the 5 mg. of diamond.
On the soft leather you used for the cerium, was that a pre-stretched one you bought or you made? If you are making one you need to stretch the leather first before you use it. Vince can tell you how to do that.
Hope that helps some.
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Post by pauls on Mar 14, 2019 22:25:46 GMT -5
The glazed on stuff should loosen up with a bit of a soak, I have never really hard cooked it on though. I will repeat what hummingbirdstones said. Using oxide polishes you need it damp but on the verge of drying out, only on the verge of drying though. Don't put too much polish on either, a thick coating of polish will lubricate the works but not polish.
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Post by gmitch067 on Mar 15, 2019 1:26:46 GMT -5
Ok, one at a time.
I'm thinking you'll probably have to resand the glaze stuff off. Do it with a one of the higher grits. Try 3,000 and if that is too slow, go down to 1,200. That should do it. The stuff that's in voids .... I don't know, truthfully. you can try soaking it in something. I don't think water will work, but you can try. Also, if you have an electric toothbrush and have an old head, try that on the stuff in the voids. I used my Sonicare with an old brush head before and that worked ok. Now if that happens to me on a stone that I know can withstand the ultrasonic, I'll throw it in there right away.
I would suggest that when you have stones that have pits or voids that you use diamond on those stones to avoid that problem. Cerium will get in them no matter what type of polishing pad you use. Use the Tech-10 (or a felt pad) with it. A small dot in 5 or 6 evenly spaced spots around the pad. Use your finger to spread it around. Then put a couple of drops of extender fluid on the pad and spread that around. Work the diamond around on the pad with your cab as you're polishing it. Add another drop of extender fluid when you feel you need it. You will need to use more on a new pad at first because it will soak in and spread out on the pad. Always use extender fluid with diamond. Add more diamond paste, a dot or two at a time, when you feel it's not polishing as quickly. Eventually you will have the pad loaded with diamond (fully charged) and won't have to add diamond as often. Same with the extender fluid. The more you do it, the better you'll be able to tell when you need to add stuff.
I have never used the cerium pre-charged discs, so I can't speak to those. I know faceters use them to polish their faceted stones, but I can't see using them for cabs, really. You would definitely need to use some water with them, but I think a spritz with a spray bottle is probably how those are used. Add another spritz when they start to get too dry. You don't want them flooded because you'll just be hydroplaning on the disc instead of polishing and probably washing the cerium off of it. Too dry and it will scratch your stone.
Use water with any oxide polish, but spritz it on, don't use the drip. Even the Tech-10. Oxides need water to make a slurry in order to work. When you feel the stone starting to drag, that's when the polishing is happening and you will need to spritz again quickly after that. Just a short spritz or two, not 10 spritzes all the way around. That's too much water and your oxide will just fling off your lap.
I'm not going to say anything about the 5 mg. of diamond.
On the soft leather you used for the cerium, was that a pre-stretched one you bought or you made? If you are making one you need to stretch the leather first before you use it. Vince can tell you how to do that.
Hope that helps some.
hummingbirdstonesVery good info and advice Robin. Thank you. I went on the web to Amazon and found the suede leather. It already had sticky backing and was used by dancers to cover the bottom of their shoes to increase traction. I didn't think about the need to stretch it first. The hard leather came from Kingsley North and was already cut in an 8 inch disk. kingsleynorth.com/leather-polishing-disc.htmlI was using the diamond extender fluid wrong. I pretty much soaked the new Tech-10 pad before putting the (5 mg) diamond paste on... it is a mess to use now+++
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Post by gmitch067 on Mar 15, 2019 1:38:25 GMT -5
The glazed on stuff should loosen up with a bit of a soak, I have never really hard cooked it on though. I will repeat what hummingbirdstones said. Using oxide polishes you need it damp but on the verge of drying out, only on the verge of drying though. Don't put too much polish on either, a thick coating of polish will lubricate the works but not polish. Thanks pauls. I got a bit frustrated at the polished/glazed cab... I first took a dremel buff pad to it to get the main glazed polish off but it failed to get any of the pitted stuff off (looked pretty bad after that). I put in the Lot-O with 1- tablespoon of borax and 1-teaspoon of AO-500, along with 10 other cabs. I'm letting those run for 4-days and see how they turn out.
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Mar 15, 2019 8:50:56 GMT -5
Ok, one at a time.
I'm thinking you'll probably have to resand the glaze stuff off. Do it with a one of the higher grits. Try 3,000 and if that is too slow, go down to 1,200. That should do it. The stuff that's in voids .... I don't know, truthfully. you can try soaking it in something. I don't think water will work, but you can try. Also, if you have an electric toothbrush and have an old head, try that on the stuff in the voids. I used my Sonicare with an old brush head before and that worked ok. Now if that happens to me on a stone that I know can withstand the ultrasonic, I'll throw it in there right away.
I would suggest that when you have stones that have pits or voids that you use diamond on those stones to avoid that problem. Cerium will get in them no matter what type of polishing pad you use. Use the Tech-10 (or a felt pad) with it. A small dot in 5 or 6 evenly spaced spots around the pad. Use your finger to spread it around. Then put a couple of drops of extender fluid on the pad and spread that around. Work the diamond around on the pad with your cab as you're polishing it. Add another drop of extender fluid when you feel you need it. You will need to use more on a new pad at first because it will soak in and spread out on the pad. Always use extender fluid with diamond. Add more diamond paste, a dot or two at a time, when you feel it's not polishing as quickly. Eventually you will have the pad loaded with diamond (fully charged) and won't have to add diamond as often. Same with the extender fluid. The more you do it, the better you'll be able to tell when you need to add stuff.
I have never used the cerium pre-charged discs, so I can't speak to those. I know faceters use them to polish their faceted stones, but I can't see using them for cabs, really. You would definitely need to use some water with them, but I think a spritz with a spray bottle is probably how those are used. Add another spritz when they start to get too dry. You don't want them flooded because you'll just be hydroplaning on the disc instead of polishing and probably washing the cerium off of it. Too dry and it will scratch your stone.
Use water with any oxide polish, but spritz it on, don't use the drip. Even the Tech-10. Oxides need water to make a slurry in order to work. When you feel the stone starting to drag, that's when the polishing is happening and you will need to spritz again quickly after that. Just a short spritz or two, not 10 spritzes all the way around. That's too much water and your oxide will just fling off your lap.
I'm not going to say anything about the 5 mg. of diamond.
On the soft leather you used for the cerium, was that a pre-stretched one you bought or you made? If you are making one you need to stretch the leather first before you use it. Vince can tell you how to do that.
Hope that helps some.
hummingbirdstones Very good info and advice Robin. Thank you. I went on the web to Amazon and found the suede leather. It already had sticky backing and was used by dancers to cover the bottom of their shoes to increase traction. I didn't think about the need to stretch it first. The hard leather came from Kingsley North and was already cut in an 8 inch disk. kingsleynorth.com/leather-polishing-disc.htmlI was using the diamond extender fluid wrong. I pretty much soaked the new Tech-10 pad before putting the (5 mg) diamond paste on... it is a mess to use now+++ I wouldn't have thought of stretching the leather either, to tell you the truth. When we bought the leather to make our own, Vince is the one who knew that we needed to stretch it first. He soaked it in water first and then stretched it across an old wood lap we had and secured it with long zip ties. We could have also nailed it around the disc to keep it taught. Then as it dries it shrinks and stretches.
The one you got from Kingsley has already been stretched. No worries on that one.
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