rockbiter
having dreams about rocks
Member since October 2019
Posts: 60
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Post by rockbiter on Dec 6, 2019 23:08:40 GMT -5
I am still tweaking my tumbler a bit, but I have it rolling so I figure it's time to make a thread. I've been making a tumbler to use with the barrel design I came up with based on jamesp 's HDPE barrels. You can see the thread about my barrels here. I decided to use a brushless DC servo sewing machine motor that costs about $120. Read the thread about getting a lot of good advice about variable speed motors and then being too stubborn to listen here. I've put way too much time into trying to figure out how to make this thing but I think the end result ain't too shabby! So without further ado: Certainly still room for improvement, and I am not claiming that the cabinet I built is very pretty. I built it too small to fit the motor inside and had to add to the bottom to make room. Probably better anyway so it doesn't overheat. And having less heat buildup inside allows for me to replace those doors with ones that seal it up better to reduce noise. I got the cabinet supplies for free and it's staying in the garage, so good enough for now. I would like to replace the two 2" slave drive pulleys on the right side with the adjustable pulleys jamesp suggested here. I said the barrel was 6". Just to avoid confusion, the barrel is 6" interior diameter, 10" interior length. Loaded about 75-80% it weighs 23 pounds. Haven't weighed it empty, probably 5-8 lbs. I was very glad to have bought an energy meter to plug this into, as I wasn't sure what to expect since the motor is rated at 550 watts at full load. I plugged in the crappy old tumbler I had used previously with two six pound barrels and it was drawing around 250 watts at less than 30 RPM. That's a lot of extra juice compared to the sewing machine motor. Running at 30 RPM and one barrel, this only draws 40-45 watts. At 90 RPM, it's 65-75. At 90 RPM with no barrels, it draws 47 watts. So I would estimate that with it running two barrels at 90 RPM, power consumption should stay under 100 watts. Some of you may not care, but if you are running this thing 24/7, paying for extra electricity gets expensive over time. I obviously can't speak to long term durability of the motor. I have been a bit concerned about the heat buildup. The motor itself stays nice and cool but the metal heatsink on the side of the speed control unit gets too hot to leave my hand on. I did call Consew before I ordered the motor and they said that it is rated for continuous duty and they saw no problem with using it on a tumbler. Consew has been in business for about a hundred years so at least it isn't just a crappy Chinese brand with some fake reviews on Amazon. And this motor is a brushless fixed magnet, so lifespan should be good. I have tons of clearance between the shaft and the bolt heads on the Fernco clamps. So I think when I make the 8" barrels, I'll skip the Fernco straight unions. I will have to try it and see if it is too loud without that extra layer. So- what do you all think? I'd really like to have someone who is using a 220v 3 phase and a VFD hook up to an energy meter at various speeds and loads to compare efficiency (*cough* TheRock ahem π). Thanks for all the suggestions and input along the way from everyone. I'll keep you all posted on how it goes from here.
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Post by RocksInNJ on Dec 6, 2019 23:26:29 GMT -5
Man thatβs sweet. Nice job. I need to go back to school and learn how to do this stuff. So cool!
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Dec 6, 2019 23:33:26 GMT -5
Good work. I think TheRock will not come close on power consumption, however he has programability so he can time speed increases/decreases and basically have automated speed changes over an infinite amount of time. Like slow it down overnight to account for slurry thickening. Your setup is excellent.
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rockbiter
having dreams about rocks
Member since October 2019
Posts: 60
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Post by rockbiter on Dec 6, 2019 23:50:58 GMT -5
Thanks guys! Yes EricD the VFD would have extra functionality being programmable but I'm just not sure if I would ever use it. Maybe I'll regret it later. I do want those adjustable pulleys to be able to run the different tiers at different speeds though. Oh, I forgot to mention that I left room on the left end of the upper shaft for a pulley in case I want to add another tier in the future. Don't really know if I want to be that invested though. Clean outs take time, grit costs $, I have other interests.
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Post by RocksInNJ on Dec 6, 2019 23:56:12 GMT -5
I hear that TheRock is currently working on a Back to the Future tumbler, that involves a Delorian traveling back into time to transport precious rocks and minerals directly back to his lap shop in the present. Of course this all has to be done with minimal energy use and be most efficient in order to not corrupt and possibly collapse the time and space continuum. But according to the molecular structure of the universe and his lap shop, all things are possible.
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rockbiter
having dreams about rocks
Member since October 2019
Posts: 60
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Post by rockbiter on Dec 7, 2019 0:09:21 GMT -5
I hear that TheRock is currently working on a Back to the Future tumbler, that involves a Delorian traveling back into time to transport precious rocks and minerals directly back to his lap shop in the present. Of course this all has to be done with minimal energy use and be most efficient in order to not corrupt and possibly collapse the time and space continuum. But according to the molecular structure of the universe and his lap shop, all things are possible. So that's where all the amazing rocks I should have found went! He went back in time and stole them all, altering the present to where I'm not neck deep in petrified trees and agate boulders, and filthy stinkin' rich! Hey TheRock, you owe me a bazillion dollars!
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Post by RocksInNJ on Dec 7, 2019 0:15:31 GMT -5
I hear that TheRock is currently working on a Back to the Future tumbler, that involves a Delorian traveling back into time to transport precious rocks and minerals directly back to his lap shop in the present. Of course this all has to be done with minimal energy use and be most efficient in order to not corrupt and possibly collapse the time and space continuum. But according to the molecular structure of the universe and his lap shop, all things are possible. So that's where all the amazing rocks I should have found went! He went back in time and stole them all, altering the present to where I'm not neck deep in petrified trees and agate boulders, and filthy stinkin' rich! Hey TheRock , you owe me a bazillion dollars! Yea, I blame New Jersey on him as well. He does it all in the safety of his lap shop with no fear of coming up against a T-Rex.
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Dec 7, 2019 0:33:07 GMT -5
Thanks guys! Yes EricD the VFD would have extra functionality being programmable but I'm just not sure if I would ever use it. Maybe I'll regret it later. I do want those adjustable pulleys to be able to run the different tiers at different speeds though. Oh, I forgot to mention that I left room on the left end of the upper shaft for a pulley in case I want to add another tier in the future. Don't really know if I want to be that invested though. Clean outs take time, grit costs $, I have other interests. You will need that shaft space for another pulley. I also would never use programmable speed maps.
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rockbiter
having dreams about rocks
Member since October 2019
Posts: 60
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Post by rockbiter on Dec 7, 2019 0:41:56 GMT -5
So that's where all the amazing rocks I should have found went! He went back in time and stole them all, altering the present to where I'm not neck deep in petrified trees and agate boulders, and filthy stinkin' rich! Hey TheRock , you owe me a bazillion dollars! Yea, I blame New Jersey on him as well. He does it all in the safety of his lap shop with no fear of coming up against a T-Rex. Any day now he'll hatch his evil scheme to unleash diamond coated T-Rexes and saber tooth tigers with adamantium fangs on the populace. We'll be utterly defenseless!
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Dec 8, 2019 6:23:44 GMT -5
To get a second speed I used a reduction from the first set of shafts to the second set of shafts. That would mean changing one of the pulleys on the long vertical toothed belt on your tumbler as you mentioned. My concerns during coarse grind(devils advocate) since coarse grind is when you usually have a blow out. The only time I ever experienced a mechanical failure was caused by a blow out during coarse getting slurry on shaft or motor bearings. bearing failures Consider what happens if you blow a cap off and dump about a gallon of water into the cabinet. Will the water damage your electronic controller ? I always try to mount the motor off to the side so that it is not in the spill line of slurry. I also don't care for tiered tumblers for the same reason; in the event of a blow out on an upper level barrel the abrasive slurry often lands on the lower shaft bearings. I have had bad luck driving only one shaft. I see you have idlers to replace the back side shaft. The idlers are more susceptible to slurry leaks being in direct contact with the barrel. Just saying, the out board shaft bearing set up often dodge slurry leaks and blow outs. One more. How are the (rubber ?) wheels glued/vulcanized/caulked to the shaft ? The worst torque situation on the driven shaft is when developing thicker slurry during coarse grind. It has always surprised me how tubing that was slid down on the drive shaft can begin to slip or wrinkle from this torque. Keep in mind I am the one that coarse grinds at high speeds, coarsest of abrasives, and often tumble gas bomb glass. The worst scenario. For that reason I do my coarse grinding operation well away from both the slower/cleaner rotary and vibe finish steps. Coarse grinding at higher speeds is like mixing concrete - messy and noisy. Even at conservative speeds for that matter. I would build a separate rugged tumbler for coarse grind and save this sweet variable machine for the 220-500-1000-polish steps. This 10 year old bare bones bulletproof coarse grinder is getting an overhaul with mods. Note shafts are coupled by belt. An easy build. 1" shafts. 700 rpm 1/8 hp. It had a half pound of grease and dried slurry on it. Greased it regularly to protect bearings. Used a wire brush on an angle grinder to clean all surfaces. Mods are a pulley change for a speed increase to 38 rpm, slanted shafts, mud slingers mounted on shafts to protect the two downhill bearings, more compact end roller to make room for 2 barrels(one barrel 20% smaller to serve as a transfer barrel when rocks shrink), motor mounted on high side away from spills. Put it on the floor and cover it with an open bottomed vented cardboard box to reduce noise. Making a flickr link for step by step. A few photos: With 8.6" barrels(29 rpm). 6.6" barrels will do 38 rpm. Will probably swap 700 rpm motor with an 1140 rpm unit for 62 rpm(6.6" barrels) or 46 rpm(8.6" barrels).
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Dec 8, 2019 7:57:24 GMT -5
What is the difference in the tumbling behavior if running barrels on a slant instead of horizontal ? Not sure. Got theories. Anyway, I have always tilted my rotaries say 3 inches in 30 inches so only one end roller is needed. Which way mixes the rocks in the most beneficial way ?
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Dec 8, 2019 12:12:34 GMT -5
rockbiter I noticed the speed controller that came with your motor differs a lot from the pictures I'm seeing on amazon of the CSM1000, which just has two buttons and a single digit LED display. Could you post a link to the one you purchased for me? Thanks!
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rockbiter
having dreams about rocks
Member since October 2019
Posts: 60
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Post by rockbiter on Dec 8, 2019 13:37:04 GMT -5
jamesp Those are some very valid concerns. Regarding blowouts, I'm hoping that will not be an issue, since I have two fernco caps to expand before blowing, and because the only glass I would ever tumble would be obsidian. Usually tumble agate and jasper, and I have never had gas problems. I agree that the little rubber idler wheels in place of a second barrel shaft are not ideal. But it simplified the design significantly over adding four more pillow blocks, four more pulleys two axle rods and two slave drive belts. The good thing about them is they can be easily and cheaply replaced if they get damaged. I am thinking I will replace them with something with actual bearings when they wear out. The rubber rollers on the shaft were glued in place, which I was hoping I could get away with but it failed after only a few hours. I am ordering some shaft collars with set screws to squeeze the rollers between. I have very limited garage space and terrible outdoor weather most of the year, so the tier system in an enclosed cabinet to reduce noise is really my best option. I agree a blowout could be catastrophic. But that's my situation. This tumbler will most likely usually only be used for rough grind. I have two vibes for polishing. Interesting about the slanted shafts. Sounds like you have a controlled experiment to perform!
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rockbiter
having dreams about rocks
Member since October 2019
Posts: 60
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Post by rockbiter on Dec 8, 2019 13:42:50 GMT -5
rockbiter I noticed the speed controller that came with your motor differs a lot from the pictures I'm seeing on amazon of the CSM1000, which just has two buttons and a single digit LED display. Could you post a link to the one you purchased for me? Thanks! Here is the link. You are correct, they only show the two buttons. They must have slightly changed the controller design without changing the picture on Amazon.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Dec 8, 2019 17:08:02 GMT -5
Your build brings to the table a lot of new innovation rockbiter. Not wanting to be a grinch but tumblers are funny about damaging components in strange ways. The impacts from rocks rolling have hidden magnified forces. Even small impact type forces are evil little monsters. For instance a PVC pipe barrel glued in the center with 4 inches of glued overlap at the coupling ends splits in half in a few days. Abrasive slurry is another chapter in itself. 70 watts was surprisingly low. Please post the watt usage when you get it rolling. Check out cement mixers and ball mills. They look over built but their duty requirements force constant replacement of bearings and rollers.
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Post by TheRock on Dec 12, 2019 17:34:42 GMT -5
So that's where all the amazing rocks I should have found went! He went back in time and stole them all, altering the present to where I'm not neck deep in petrified trees and agate boulders, and filthy stinkin' rich! Hey TheRock , you owe me a bazillion dollars! Yea, I blame New Jersey on him as well. He does it all in the safety of his lap shop with no fear of coming up against a T-Rex. Brother you have one hell of an Imagination! Don't give me any Ideas or I will "MAKE IT SO" jUsT sAyIn.
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Post by TheRock on Dec 12, 2019 18:37:34 GMT -5
So- what do you all think? I'd really like to have someone who is using a 220v 3 phase and a VFD hook up to an energy meter at various speeds and loads to compare efficiency (*cough* TheRock ahem π). Thanks for all the suggestions and input along the way from everyone. I'll keep you all posted on how it goes from here. So what do I think? I think you did better than I thought it would turn out. However dependability will be the true test of time if the motor will stand up to the constant use day by day 24/7. I am seriously thinking about adding my present setup on my diamond pacific tumbler you mentioned 70 watts on yours what is the voltage and RPM it is running at?
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Post by TheRock on Dec 13, 2019 2:39:49 GMT -5
Okay I have been looking this thing over how is the Motor Mounted It kinda looks like a Pivot Point like a Alternator on a Car. So like maybe a Channel Iron to accept the point on the DC Motor. maybe you can get me pictures of that. Thanks ~Duke
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rockbiter
having dreams about rocks
Member since October 2019
Posts: 60
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Post by rockbiter on Dec 16, 2019 16:22:00 GMT -5
So- what do you all think? I'd really like to have someone who is using a 220v 3 phase and a VFD hook up to an energy meter at various speeds and loads to compare efficiency (*cough* TheRock ahem π). Thanks for all the suggestions and input along the way from everyone. I'll keep you all posted on how it goes from here. So what do I think? I think you did better than I thought it would turn out. However dependability will be the true test of time if the motor will stand up to the constant use day by day 24/7. I am seriously thinking about adding my present setup on my diamond pacific tumbler you mentioned 70 watts on yours what is the voltage and RPM it is running at? 120v, 600 RPM motor speed. I got a second 3/4 full barrel on it and it only went up to 85 watts. I'm at work now so I'll get pictures of the mount later. But it does pivot on a big bolt so it is very easy to tension the belt.
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