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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 6, 2023 15:34:07 GMT -5
I'm terrible with turquoise.
Is this turquoise? It's 13mm and the color on my monitor is right. There's some chalky matrix on the back, and what looks like malachite. I have chrysocolla written on the bag, but maybe it's Sleeping Beauty? Thanks for any help. |
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gemfeller
Cave Dweller 
Member since June 2011
Posts: 3,546 
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Post by gemfeller on Jan 6, 2023 16:17:36 GMT -5
I vote chrysaocolla.
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 6, 2023 16:20:59 GMT -5
Yeah, I didn't even notice the chrysocolla crazing on the back until I took the picture- plus the malachite... probably chrysocolla. A nice piece IMHO. I want to do a double wrap with it.
Thank you for your opinion.  |
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 6, 2023 16:21:38 GMT -5
I should have added that it's quite hard and glossy.
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gemfeller
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Member since June 2011
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Post by gemfeller on Jan 6, 2023 16:22:31 GMT -5
Yeah, I didn't even notice the chrysocolla crazing on the back until I took the picture- plus the malachite... probably chrysocolla. A nice piece IMHO. I want to do a double wrap with it.
Thank you for your opinion. It IS very nice, better than turquoise IMO. |
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Post by jasoninsd on Jan 6, 2023 16:57:35 GMT -5
Yeah, I didn't even notice the chrysocolla crazing on the back until I took the picture- plus the malachite... probably chrysocolla. A nice piece IMHO. I want to do a double wrap with it.
Thank you for your opinion. A double wrap as in this piece along with another one? If so, I want to put it in writing that I had looked at two pieces this morning which I need to wrap and was considering doing a "double wrap" with them. I had to post this so you didn't think I was "stalking" you and copying what you're doing! LOL   |
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 6, 2023 17:04:14 GMT -5
Yeah, I didn't even notice the chrysocolla crazing on the back until I took the picture- plus the malachite... probably chrysocolla. A nice piece IMHO. I want to do a double wrap with it.
Thank you for your opinion. A double wrap as in this piece along with another one? If so, I want to put it in writing that I had looked at two pieces this morning which I need to wrap and was considering doing a "double wrap" with them. I had to post this so you didn't think I was "stalking" you and copying what you're doing! LOL  LOL! You worry too much. I want to see your double wrap. I prolly won't get to mine for awhile. I might need to cut another stone for it. So, have at it. I can't wait to see yours. |
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Post by jasoninsd on Jan 6, 2023 17:08:45 GMT -5
A double wrap as in this piece along with another one? If so, I want to put it in writing that I had looked at two pieces this morning which I need to wrap and was considering doing a "double wrap" with them. I had to post this so you didn't think I was "stalking" you and copying what you're doing! LOL LOL! You worry too much. I want to see your double wrap. I prolly won't get to mine for awhile. I might need to cut another stone for it. So, have at it. I can't wait to see yours. First I have to figure out how the hell to do it! LOL - I just thought it was really funny that I had NEVER considered doing one...until this morning...and now you're posting about it! LOL - I just happened to be looking at the ones I need to wrap, and immediately saw that two could potentially work together. |
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 6, 2023 17:11:09 GMT -5
LOL! You worry too much. I want to see your double wrap. I prolly won't get to mine for awhile. I might need to cut another stone for it. So, have at it. I can't wait to see yours. First I have to figure out how the hell to do it! LOL - I just thought it was really funny that I had NEVER considered doing one...until this morning...and now you're posting about it! LOL - I just happened to be looking at the ones I need to wrap, and immediately saw that two could potentially work together. You can do it! I have faith in you.
I was actually planning on doing something I haven't done before. Still mulling it over. |
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Post by vegasjames on Jan 6, 2023 18:31:39 GMT -5
I should have added that it's quite hard and glossy. Chrysocolla is very soft and cannot be worked without stabilization. Around 95% of turquoise also needs to be stabilized. This is most often done with epoxy, so you can easily test if it has been stabilized with epoxy by sticking a hot pin against it. If there is epoxy it will smoke and smell like burning plastic.
If it has a hardness of 7, then it would be gem silica, also sometimes called "silicated chrysocolla", which is not really chrysocolla. Instead, it is a chalcedony stained by copper salts. Good quality gem silica is worth quite a bit.
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 6, 2023 18:36:41 GMT -5
I should have added that it's quite hard and glossy. Chrysocolla is very soft and cannot be worked without stabilization. Around 95% of turquoise also needs to be stabilized. This is most often done with epoxy, so you can easily test if it has been stabilized with epoxy by sticking a hot pin against it. If there is epoxy it will smoke and smell like burning plastic.
If it has a hardness of 7, then it would be gem silica, also sometimes called "silicated chrysocolla", which is not really chrysocolla. Instead, it is a chalcedony stained by copper salts. Good quality gem silica is worth quite a bit.
Thanks, James. I just stuck the back with a hot pin. Nothing. No smoke and no mark. |
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Post by vegasjames on Jan 6, 2023 18:41:49 GMT -5
Chrysocolla is very soft and cannot be worked without stabilization. Around 95% of turquoise also needs to be stabilized. This is most often done with epoxy, so you can easily test if it has been stabilized with epoxy by sticking a hot pin against it. If there is epoxy it will smoke and smell like burning plastic.
If it has a hardness of 7, then it would be gem silica, also sometimes called "silicated chrysocolla", which is not really chrysocolla. Instead, it is a chalcedony stained by copper salts. Good quality gem silica is worth quite a bit.
Thanks, James. I just stuck the back with a hot pin. Nothing. No smoke and no mark. Then I would say gem silica.
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 6, 2023 18:51:34 GMT -5
Thanks, James. I just stuck the back with a hot pin. Nothing. No smoke and no mark. Then I would say gem silica.
Thanks and thanks for the link. I never dare call anything gem silica for fear that it really isn't, but I had hoped that this might be and I think maybe it is. I was going to pair it with a very nice chrysoprase. The colors look great together. |
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gemfeller
Cave Dweller
Member since June 2011
Posts: 3,546
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Post by gemfeller on Jan 7, 2023 16:33:26 GMT -5
By far the most prevalent turquoise treatment today is the the Zachery method, which does not use epoxy or other polymers. It is virtually undetectable without expensive laboratory examination. As of 1999 an estimated 10 million carats of turquoise had been Zachery treated and the amount of Z-treated material on the market today is overwhelming. While the old "hot pin" test works with the limited amount of epoxy-treated material seen today, it's by no means a reliable test to detect turquoise treatment. Here's an old GIA article describing the Zachery process: www.gia.edu/doc/The-Identification-of-Zachery-Treated-Turquoise.pdf |
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Post by vegasjames on Jan 7, 2023 19:39:28 GMT -5
By far the most prevalent turquoise treatment today is the the Zachery method, which does not use epoxy or other polymers. It is virtually undetectable without expensive laboratory examination. As of 1999 an estimated 10 million carats of turquoise had been Zachery treated and the amount of Z-treated material on the market today is overwhelming. While the old "hot pin" test works with the limited amount of epoxy-treated material seen today, it's by no means a reliable test to detect turquoise treatment. Here's an old GIA article describing the Zachery process: www.gia.edu/doc/The-Identification-of-Zachery-Treated-Turquoise.pdfMany people stabilize their own turquoise using epoxy, which is why the test can still be done. Is is absolute? No, which is why I said "if" epoxy is present.
The Zachary process is not cheap and thus is commonly only done with large commercial quantities of turquoise. And yes, it is very difficult to detect due to the chemistry involved. Really not that hard to figure out what they are doing in this process. I have used a very similar technique to stabilize some stones using a very closely related chemical that what they would be using. I will not go in to details since they do have a proprietary process and clearly want to keep it that way, but it really is pretty basic and not difficult to do.
I have used this process to stabilize a piece of chalky turquoise as well as slabs of softer Nevada Tiffany stone and softer slabs of copper ore. It not only makes the materials harder, but also less porous and chemically reactive.
The one difference is that they likely use machines to alter the pressure to aid in penetration. I did not do this. Instead I thinned out the solution and put the slabs or chunks in sealed jars then put them outside in the sun during the summer for a few weeks. The heat expands the air in the stone forcing it out and as the solution cools at night it draws the solution in the stone where it chemically reacts with compounds in the stone forming new compounds naturally found, which is why it is so hard to detect.
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 8, 2023 7:47:44 GMT -5
I poked at the matrix a little with a sharp steel awl. It was soft and crumbly. If it was treated, wouldn't the matrix also be stabilized?
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Post by vegasjames on Jan 9, 2023 11:06:15 GMT -5
I poked at the matrix a little with a sharp steel awl. It was soft and crumbly. If it was treated, wouldn't the matrix also be stabilized? Soft and crumbly would rule out gem silica anyway as this is a chalcedony and thus would be hard and not crumbly. Generally yes, if treated properly then the stabilizer would have penetrated deep in to the material giving it the hardness of whatever the stabilizing agent is.
I thought you mentioned it being harder in an earlier post.
Can you test for actual hardness and density?
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 9, 2023 11:08:50 GMT -5
I poked at the matrix a little with a sharp steel awl. It was soft and crumbly. If it was treated, wouldn't the matrix also be stabilized? Soft and crumbly would rule out gem silica anyway as this is a chalcedony and thus would be hard and not crumbly. Generally yes, if treated properly then the stabilizer would have penetrated deep in to the material giving it the hardness of whatever the stabilizing agent is.
I thought you mentioned it being harder in an earlier post.
Can you test for actual hardness and density?
I was referring to the matrix on the back. It is not as hard as the blue stone. |
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Post by vegasjames on Jan 9, 2023 11:16:13 GMT -5
Soft and crumbly would rule out gem silica anyway as this is a chalcedony and thus would be hard and not crumbly. Generally yes, if treated properly then the stabilizer would have penetrated deep in to the material giving it the hardness of whatever the stabilizing agent is.
I thought you mentioned it being harder in an earlier post.
Can you test for actual hardness and density?
I was referring to the matrix on the back. It is not as hard as the blue stone. The lighter areas are likely some form of calcium. Dolomite and calcite are both very common around copper mines and can be soft and crumbly. |
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