docharber
has rocks in the head
Member since October 2008
Posts: 716
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Post by docharber on Dec 2, 2011 17:42:55 GMT -5
Our club has three saws, a 10", 14", and 18" that are oil cooled. We are truing to devise some sort of filtration system that can quickly remove particles down to 2 microns or so (our 10 micron filter isn't doing the jod) that will work quickly enough to supply a steady stream of clean oil back to the sump and blades. We have looked ay systems up to $1600 but would rather devise something ourseklves that doesn't require a steady supply of expensive filter elements and which we could build ourselves. Any ideas??? Thanks.
Mark H.
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Post by johnjsgems on Dec 2, 2011 19:09:09 GMT -5
Most of the pump lube systems have dividers in the tank so the returning oil dumps in one section, fills and runs into next, etc. The pump would be in last compartment and hopefully most sludge settles out in previous compartments. My old HP came to me with a pump and half barrel. On the drain pipe there is a canvas sack that catches some sludge. John Rowland (HP current producer) told me he was working on a built in pump/filter system that would eliminate ever having to replace the oil.
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docharber
has rocks in the head
Member since October 2008
Posts: 716
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Post by docharber on Dec 2, 2011 20:26:41 GMT -5
We have a 2 year old 14" Covington saw andf a 18" Lortone several years old and I am certain the larger saw has a divider in the sump as you describe. Our problem is that when the saw starts up, we get clean oil but after running a while the oil is all fouled. The oil level drops and the pump starts picking up sludge. I thought maybe a larger settling tank would provide enough clean oil for prolonged use but oil is expensive and i don't know if it would helpp. i have a question in that regard- some of our members have recommended using food grade (fairly heavy?) mineral oil bought in bulk at feed stores as a horse laxative. Ourt club members are telling me a cutting oil needs to be a light weight oil with low viscosity. I don't know that it matters that much, but if anyone can explain the rationale of one or the other, I'm all ears. Thanks John, for your inpit. i'll pass on any advice to our equipment custodian fort his review.
Mark H
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Post by tandl on Dec 2, 2011 20:35:26 GMT -5
heavy oil collects the grinding`s , far more than thin . Kerosene is a good cheap thinner , i have used .
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Post by johnjsgems on Dec 2, 2011 20:42:12 GMT -5
The pump system I described is separate from the saw. It uses a pump to spray oil on the blade rather than "splash lube" where blade picks up the oil as it turns. Low viscosity is best and high flash point. I was in Miami for Christmas one year and experienced Winter in South Florida (we never turned the AC off). Viscosity would be less a problem in warm climates. Food grade is safest but tech grade or "white" mineral oils are very safe too. Many clubs use Lube Cool or Roc Cut (same stuff) water soluble in their trim saws to avoid oil contact issues. For slab saws oil is really a must.
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Post by johnjsgems on Dec 2, 2011 21:26:51 GMT -5
Mark, you can see the systems I mentioned at Diamond Pacific or Covington website. Picture is easier to see at DP.
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Post by Rockoonz on Dec 3, 2011 0:13:50 GMT -5
Stay FAR away from Kerosene, theres a reason they use it for Jet fuel. In addition to the fire hazard it also will create a very toxic mist, read the MSDS for Kerosene sometime.
Lee
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docharber
has rocks in the head
Member since October 2008
Posts: 716
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Post by docharber on Dec 3, 2011 3:04:48 GMT -5
As an Air FOrce flight surgeon, I learned a lot about Kerosene and jet fuel (the former is kerosene with additives, which pose the major toxicity problems) and can appreciate how a kerosene mist could be a problem if the bladfde created a spark. I also know a lot of folks use kerosene in their saws. Personnally, I don't like the smell and it tends to linger on the slabs. thanks again John for the advice. By the way, I'm in the panhandle, which isn't really Florida- it's LA (lower Alabama) climate wise. We can't grow citrus and do get occasional drops to 20 degrees in winter. Real Florida starts at about Gainesville- Ocala.
Mark H.
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Post by Dicky the Rockhunter on Dec 3, 2011 10:03:14 GMT -5
We have a commercial cutting shop here and they change the oil about ever 4 or 5 months. Yeah it gets quite dirty and has a large amount of rock snot in it, but it is still perfect for the lube and taking the rock pre-snot away from the specimen. Just set up a double bucket filtration systems and have more oil than it takes to fill your saw in filtration and also have the saw full . When you do change oil the filtered goes in the saw and the dirty goes in the bucket filters. We even take the snot scraping and let them stand for a while (weeks ) and can use the top oil while we put the rest into the filter. What is the problem johnjsgems mentions re "avoid oil contact " ? I find it is a wonderful hand softener and it also makes user more conscious of safety. AFTER ALL WE ARE JUST PLAYING MOTHER NATURE AND MAKING DIRT FASTER THAN SHE DOES. SO WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? THE STRESS WE PUT ON THE OIL, NOT EVEN THINKABLE AS TO STRONG ENOUGH TO BREAK THE OIL DOWN AND LOOSE ITS INHERENT PROPERTIES , JUST FILTER AND REUSE.!!! Dicky
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Post by johnjsgems on Dec 3, 2011 10:12:10 GMT -5
Dicky, I don't mind oil. Many clubs do worry though.
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Post by roy on Dec 3, 2011 11:47:02 GMT -5
so will mineral oil work with the bigger saws 18, 24, 30, ??
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Post by johnjsgems on Dec 3, 2011 12:42:14 GMT -5
Light weight mineral oil would be a good choice for any slab saw.
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Post by jakesrocks on Dec 3, 2011 13:35:05 GMT -5
Mineral oil is the only thing that has ever been in my 16" saw. Plus, as Dicky said, it makes a great skin softener. Winter weight hydraulic oil is thin enough for saws. This is also a mineral oil. This time of year Tractor Supply usually has it on sale in 5 gal. cans. It has a slight odor, but not nearly as strong as Pella or Almag. If your members don't like the smell, just throw a quart of cheap, scented baby oil in it.
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docharber
has rocks in the head
Member since October 2008
Posts: 716
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Post by docharber on Dec 4, 2011 22:16:25 GMT -5
The concern with oil contact is the additives, in say, hydraulic oil. These can include known carcinogens and toxic aromatic hydrocarbons, as is the case with jet fuel. What started as simple kerosene can become toxic as we were well aware in Air FOrce occupational medicine circles. Even if an additive is in itself nontoxic, it may enhance absorption of another that is. It's a general rule in dermatology that the oilier/greasier a vehicle is, the better absorbed any oil soluble substance in it will be, as with topical steroids. The simpler the safer. I'll certainly check out the filtration systes at DP John mentioned. thanks for the interest, folks.
mark H.
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Post by johnjsgems on Dec 4, 2011 22:52:07 GMT -5
The DP system is really expensive but just a three chambered reservoir. I can see three plastic tubs one inside the other with oil entering outer largest tub, spilling over into next tub the spilling over into smallest center tub with pump. It would be cheapest if you have an oil distributor to follow Dicky's advice and have reserve of oil so you can run saws while filtering and just keep recycling.
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Post by Roller on Dec 4, 2011 23:54:27 GMT -5
sometimes the min oil seeps in my skin and acts as a laxative also !!!! good for cleaning out your system ..lol
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rocpup
spending too much on rocks
Pink Limb Iris
Member since March 2011
Posts: 465
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Post by rocpup on Dec 5, 2011 9:51:57 GMT -5
Saw oil from looking at past threads is really a problem and building a two micron filter is going to be even a bigger one but if you have the bucks so be it. Every time the saw passes through a rock it leaves the width of the cut in rock dust suspended in the coolant/lubricant. A good coolant/lubricant should have the ability for the solids to settle out and not stay suspended. Filtering out all that muck is going to plug any filter very quickly if used on one saw let alone three. From past articles I have read Pella and Almag is supposed to settle the suspended material and that is why it is recommended. In the past in the bottom of my saws the muck has settled into a hard cake that I have dug out and put in paper/bucket filters. The saw was then refilled with filtered oil and everyone was happy. The last five gallon pale of Pella A hit my pocket for $85 and for some reason the solids did not settle out as in the past. When I pushed a finger to the bottom of the saw the muck was still suspended even after six months. At $85 a clip Pella A will not be on my Xmas list this year. So as with a lot of RTH members I am doing a little reading and thinking. Don
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Post by johnjsgems on Dec 5, 2011 12:11:07 GMT -5
Pella really stinks too. Hard to get it out of rock slabs as well.
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Post by Hard Rock Cafe on Dec 5, 2011 13:37:05 GMT -5
Okay, I'm just brainstorming, but what if you used 4 chambers (like the DP system; maybe plastic storage containers or rectangular buckets?) and instead of relying just on settling, use car air filters, too? You'd have to stack them in a ladder and rely on gravity. I would recess the filters about half way into the chambers.
First chamber: settling only to remove the bulk of the sludge; drain hole at top Second chamber: rectangular air intake filter; drain hole at bottom Third chamber: micron cabin air filter; drain hole at bottom Fourth chamber: clean oil and pump
Just an idea. You'd obviously have some details to work out with getting good seals on the filters, tubes between chambers, etc.
You could also just align them horizontally with the filters vertical. Might be easier to get a good filter seal that way.
Chuck
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Post by deb193redux on Dec 5, 2011 16:12:46 GMT -5
I do well with the odorless white mineral oil form Tractor Supply, or the one I sometimes order form STE oils in Texas. Fairly light (water-like) viscosity. Not toxic.
I filter in paper bags, and just have enough oil to have a few gallons in the saw and a few gallons filtering. I got a little more in the bottle to top things off and make up for small losses.
There is some very fine brown residue that gets through the bag. But I decided so what. I am not trying to produce food-grade mineral oil for resale. I just put it back the saw. I figure if it is so fine it got through the bag, then it is not going to cause any problems.
Sometimes getting out 99% is much better in terms of time, effort, resources, and function than getting out 99.9% (You never get 100%).
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