Roger
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Member since January 2013
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Post by Roger on Jan 19, 2013 13:06:14 GMT -5
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Post by deb193redux on Jan 19, 2013 19:08:02 GMT -5
That is a well made saw. You can get it cheaper at: store-iyaxr.mybigcommerce.com/hi-tech-diamond/, and might consider the 6" size. However this is a specialty saw for very precise cuts. the stock blade is very very thin, .012". Depending on what you want to do, you could kill that blade the 1st time you tried to use it. Say something about what you want to do, and better recommendations can be made.
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Post by johnjsgems on Jan 19, 2013 19:34:54 GMT -5
It is comparable to the Ameritool 4" saw (that takes a 5" blade" except no vise option. The .012" standard blade is a plated low cost blade. It has a 5/8" arbor so you could use a .020" 5" BD/MK 303C blade as well. You won't find much in thicker blades unless you go to a 4.5" tile blade. You will like the lapidary blades better for trimming slabs. The same blade in 4" comes with the Ameritool. Both saws are nice trim saws and made to use with water.
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Post by Rockoonz on Jan 19, 2013 23:24:32 GMT -5
Depends on what you want to do. For trimming slabs to shape for cabs the HiTech will work, but Ameritool is better. If you want to cut anything thicker than 1/2" thick or make slabs you're better off with a larger belt drive saw. For a general idea of what size saw blade you need based on rock size. www.barrancadiamond.com/home/tec_depth.htmlLee
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Roger
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Post by Roger on Jan 20, 2013 18:19:00 GMT -5
What I think I am after is something to cut slabs with..then to trim them. I admit that I am a bit lost here. I am not postivie what the depth of the cut really means in relation to cutting slabs. I understand the "no more than xx deep" part - but what is the maximum material width I can really work with?
I think most of what I will be cutting is going to be in 2-8" diameter range. Agates & Jasper.
I can pick up a decent 10-12" tile saw pretty cheaply. I could simply purchase a good blade for one? Should I look at a band saw?
Roger
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darrad
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Post by darrad on Jan 20, 2013 18:28:28 GMT -5
You are looking at a pretty big saw to cut 8" dia. rocks. Figure 1/3 of the diameter of the blade and that's the dia. of the rock you can cut. You can cut bigger than 1/3 the blade of course but you will go through blades real quick and larger blades aint cheap.
Forget the band saw for cutting slabs. That's not what they are made for.
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Roger
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Member since January 2013
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Post by Roger on Jan 20, 2013 18:34:18 GMT -5
Do most people here cutting slabs do them in two cuts, one from each side? A 3" cut - flip the material, another 3" cut?
Heck skilsaw sells sells a 7" wetsaw for $80.00 which I guess would give roughly a 2" depth of cut..no vise though and I really want one. I damn near lost a finger once and really do not want to do that again.
I am looking on Amazon as I have a LOT of Amazon gift card cash which I need to use at some point lol.
Thanks!
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Post by deb193redux on Jan 20, 2013 19:31:52 GMT -5
no most folks have slab saws that can make 3" high or larger cuts. (some results with tiles saws are possible, see below).
I think you need to get some experience with some lapidary saws. is there a club within driving range? ... somebody with a saw?
you are asking questions, which is good, but your notions are so far out of focus it is hard to know where to begin. maybe you could read a lapidary book about saws and sawing. the equipment you think will do the job sadly will not. the sizes you can handle are much smaller than you think. the expense to get set up is much more than you think.
that 5" saw you were looking at cannot do slabs, and should not be used with material thicker than 3/8".
about the only slab/trim saw is in the 10" size. Trim saws have a table, slab saws generally do not. In the 10" size (sometimes a little larger) you can get a table for trimming and a vise for slabbing. otherwise smaller for trimming, and much larger for slabbing. after some time most serious hobbyists have several sized saws and maybe a specialty saw or drill as well. one tool will not do it all.
You can bust up larger rocks by cutting notches with an angle grinder, or drilling holes, and using some sort of wedge an hammer. then when you have 2.5"x4" pieces you can put them in a 10" saw vise. You can get a used 10" with manual vise for about $140 and add a used motor and new blade for about about another $75. not a bad setup. A used 10" with motor and vise and autofeed for the vise runs about $300 to $550.
there is a low end entry point with a 7" tile saw. you can trim slabs, but the hole around the blade is a problem as the slab get smaller. still, they are cheap. most tile blades only cut tile and will be destroyed if you cut hard stone or agate. but you can put a $35 or $45 granite/porcelain blade on it an cut hard rock OK.
some people use a 10" overhead tile saw, but IMO this has too may problems.
Most wood saws easily sink into soft wood like pine and you can get distorted ideas about how easy it would be to cut stone. forget about any kind of skill saw. imagine trying to plunge cut a lumpy ball of hard maple. likely the blade will bind, or the wood will get thrown, or the saw will be ripped out of your hand and go flying. if you managed the cut there is almost zero chance of flipping it over and getting a 2nd cut that is almost in the same plane. zero.
diamond blades have to grind into stone (not like steel blades cut into wood) and the blade cannot shift or it binds in the cut. the stone can get hurled or the motor can get burned out.
all that said, with a little practice, someone can make a 1.2" cut in a 2.5" or almost 3" thick stone and then turn it over and get a 2nd cut that mates within a few degrees. there will be marks and nubs, but these can be ground off. a flatish stone (think shape like flagstone) helps. with well rounded rocks you can actually learn to roll the rock on the blade and get a fairly good cut on almost 3" diameter with just a bit of center nub. if the rock is lumpy, the chances of twisting a bit and binding up on the blade is very high. plan to ruin a few blades before you get the right touch.
tile saw cuts are a bit rough/frosted (even when no obvious saw marks and nubs). the saws can be messy too and generally get used outside. But it is a less expensive low-end setup.
for cutting smoother slabs of even thickness a lapidary quality blade and a vise is needed.
get a book with some pictures and look at different saws, or just look at different saws in lapidary catalogs (or websites).
also an 8" diameter rock will weigh more than most bowling balls. you cannot hold and move it as needed. generally hand holding and hand feeding is very awkward (and very ugly results) when the rock weighs more than 3-5 lbs. After a few pounds it really needs to be in a vise.
if you are at all mechanical, or willing to learn, a used saw is the way to go.
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Post by Peruano on Jan 20, 2013 22:05:30 GMT -5
Daniel, I appreciate the knowledge conveyed in the overview of saws. Good onya. Tom
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Roger
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Member since January 2013
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Post by Roger on Jan 20, 2013 22:59:25 GMT -5
Daniel, first off - thank you VERY much for the information. I try and ask questions - hopefully correct ones for what I really need. I am not mechanical at all and I will need to buy. I do not know a soul who cuts, tumbles, or even looks twice at rocks. It is why I asked here Currently I have some really nice agates up to 3" diameter that I would really love to cut in half and polish. I can see that I will probably want the ability to cut larger material. I likely will want the ability to create slabs from the agates and possibly trim sections from them. What do I need to be looking at?
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Post by deb193redux on Jan 21, 2013 0:59:08 GMT -5
Well - With slab saws the question is not "are you mechanical?" but "when do you want to become mechanical?" Belts, pulleys, arbor alignment, feed rate, ... there are so many moving parts you will be trying to fix it at some point. A great used one might come ready to use, or needing just a little, like bolting down a used motor and getting a pulley from the hardware. You might also need to take a wrench and put on a blade - same as changing the blade on a miter or table saw. You will also have to take off the vise assembly to use the saw as a trim saw, and then put it on again for slabbing. SO you+saw+tools cannot be avoided. 3" agates are right at the upper end of what a 10" can do. If the agate is at all potato shaped, e.g., 2.5 x 3.5, you are good to go. They do sell 12" saws, but not too many models new. Most manufacturerers jump up to 14". I think Lortone and Covington both have a 12". IMO the Lortone 12" is very flexible, but it does seem I am always adjusting and aligning mine. Beside the cut-depth, the features you pay for are a cross-feed vise, a clear hood, possibly an auto feed drive for the vise (some folks actually prefer gravity feed over motor/auto). Some saws are sold with a company blade, and IMO you are better off if you can get it w/o the blade or get the dealer to upgrade to MK 303c. There are 10" saws in the $700-$800 range but most lack one of the features I just mentioned. The Lortone TC10c is stainless, well made, but no cross-feed. It is about $680, has a motor, hood, vise ... etc. But to get nice parallel slabs, you really need a cross feed. (Se one at: www.therockshed.com/equipment12.html or www.kingsleynorth.com/skshop/product.php?id=95505&catID=1036Hi-Tech makes a 10" saw for about $700, and the direct drive motor means no belts. But no hood and no cross-feed. The Amazon seller BUTW has it, but when he sells it on ebay, he throws in 50lbs of rock. www.ebay.com/itm/BUTW-10-Hi-Tech-lapidary-grinding-polishing-slab-saw-with-vise-and-blade-/350501174916The lowest priced 10" with a cross-feed is likely Covington at $850 to $900. See www.jsgemslapidary.com/Covington-10in-Trim-Saw/ or www.ebay.com/itm/10-Covington-Rock-Slab-Trim-Saw-WIth-Power-Feed-New-/310232847140. - BUT it is a little lightweight, and some folks hav had problems. Nothing that can't be fixed, but now we are back to "mechanical". I also do not like the blade it comes with, and you should spend another $60 or $80 on a MK 303c. It does have auto-feed, and there may be a way to order w/ gravity feed to save about $100, but I do not see that in catalogs. Better made 10" saws with cross-feed and all the fixings run $1050 to $1500. A good one for about $1150 is BD10 - See www.jsgemslapidary.com/BD-10-POWER-FEED-SAW/, and it comes with the BD 303 blade that is the same as the MK303. I have to reiterate that used is good. This 10" w/ auto-feed recently sold on ebay for only $411, (you may need to be logged in to ebay to see completed listings) www.ebay.com/itm/Beacon-Star-10-inch-slab-saw-auto-feed-Free-Shipping-/121012867196 - they generally sell about $120 higher though. You might also consider the Lortone 12", which can be gotten for $1150 (before shipping) form here www.therockshed.com/equipment12.html, and then get a tile saw for trimming the slabs. This wil give you a cut depth of about 4" and it can easily handle 6" wide. This also has the advantage of letting you use oil for the slab saw, and water for the trim saw. If you have a 10" slab/trim type you can run it with water (plus additive) instead of oil, but blade life is shorter. But, even with the hood, you get plenty of oil mist coming out when slabbing and trimming, and when trimming you get lots of oil on your hands. messy. Also, IMO, the used LS10, Lortone 10" slab saw is a great saw. No longer made and sold used for between $450 and $600. I own two. Love them. Verl little trouble. BUt, no table (i.e., no trimming). It really would be best if you could get some hands on before spending a lot of money. What area are you in?
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Post by Rockoonz on Jan 21, 2013 1:00:55 GMT -5
If you are planning to cut through 8 inch rocks but you're not too mechanical I suggest you find a teacher. Do you live near an active rock club? If so I would get to know them and find someone to help you get started. A little hands on instruction will save you a bunch of grief and money.
Lee
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Post by Rockoonz on Jan 21, 2013 1:12:55 GMT -5
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Roger
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Member since January 2013
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Post by Roger on Jan 21, 2013 14:15:34 GMT -5
Daniel - I can repair & replace parts if I can determine what it is which doesn't work. I was thinking you were about to recommend I build a rig of some sort. That would be beyond my skill set.
I just found a local guy selling off a trim saw, slab saw, bench grinder and a polisher. I am waiting to hear back on what exactly it is he has. From the pricing he is either ditching the equipment or it doesn't work..or both.
Lee - thank you, I will contact them.
Roger
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QuailRiver
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Post by QuailRiver on Jan 21, 2013 18:57:14 GMT -5
Hello Roger, Welcome to the hobby! What area of the country are you in?
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Roger
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2013
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Post by Roger on Jan 21, 2013 20:36:17 GMT -5
Hello Quail, thank you. I am in central texas - home of limestone, fractured limestone, and calichie..oh, we also have limestone!
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riverbendlapidary
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Post by riverbendlapidary on Jan 21, 2013 23:11:41 GMT -5
Canyon Lake here. I have a 10" slab saw for sale right now.
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 22, 2013 18:05:25 GMT -5
Great thread!!!! Thanks, Daniel I'll be in the market for a saw in the spring which isn't too far off now. I'll be needing a 10" saw. I'm gonna be coming back to this thread.
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QuailRiver
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Post by QuailRiver on Jan 22, 2013 23:41:07 GMT -5
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Roger
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Member since January 2013
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Post by Roger on Jan 29, 2013 9:10:11 GMT -5
Okay - after doing more homework, and getting back to town after a week working away, I have refined my questions. Knowing what I am "really" going to be doing, over what I would "like" to do, helped tremendously.
Primarily what I will be doing is creating finished rock for jewelry. Maximum finished size would be 3"x1-1/2"x3/8"-ish
Equipment I already own: Lortone QT12 and extra QT66 barrels; Lot-O-Tumbler 4-1/2; UltraVibe 10; modified 0-30000rpm variable speed Dremel w/ drill press & just about every attachment known to man for cutting, carving, polishing, and drilling stone & glass.
For general trim and polish, least expensive first, I am looking at either: Rock Rascal 6" - combo trim saw/grinder Lortone Lu6x - combo trim saw/grinder/polisher Barranca 6" Diamond Combo - trim saw/grinder/polisher
I would really like hear recommendations and "why" from people who may have experience with these. The prices jump up quickly on them and I am not sure if "more" is always better, but; I would rather spend more now than find later that I need to add something one of these models has.
For example I am not sure that I need a polisher? I do have the vibes and can get solid results with them, which makes the Rock Rascal look pretty good. The catch is the polishers would allow for spot polishing of hard to polish areas, as would the Dremel polisher?
Slab Saw - Okay. I see what everyone was saying now. It looks like cutting slabs is going to be something I do in the future, or via a large tile saw for “rough” slabbing.
With any of the combo machines above – can a thicker blade be used to pseudo “slab” – trim material up to maybe 1”?
Again, thank you all for the experience, input, and patience as I work through this. I am attempting to get this narrowed down and dialed in to something somewhat intelligent.
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