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Post by helens on Aug 27, 2013 22:55:42 GMT -5
The war just around the corner Helen. Interesting the administration says they don't want regime change, they just want to punish Syria for using chemical weapons. I just want to know why it is our job to "punish" anyone for things they do in their own civil wars and why the "punishment " is only for chemical weapons use. A bullet or a bomb makes one just as dead. I'm also of course amazed we would punish anyone for killing a lot of radical Muslims which a lot of the rebels in Syria are. After the smoke clears, these folks are not going to like us any more than they do now which is not very darn much. It's totally stupid to get into another conflict again, with no end in sight....Mel Punish because chemical weapons are the most heineous weapons we know of... but mostly because we signed the CWC agreement for non-proliferation of chemical weapons with 189 other nations. Without any enforcement when tested, the agreement is meaningless: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_Weapons_ConventionThe action is inevitable, because chemical weapons were fired. The argument is over WHO fired them, with Russia trying to say that it wasn't Assad. We knew over a year ago that Syria could be WWIII, and talked about it then if you recall. And I was the one saying that we have to be very careful. However, that was before they fired chemical weapons. That said, I see it as a big squeeze to force Russia and China to help work on resolving the Syria crisis. If not, it's WWIII.
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Post by helens on Aug 27, 2013 23:04:19 GMT -5
That said, I think Russia and China will work harder to find a peaceful solution, but we don't really have a choice if they won't. The US has to enforce our own treaties we signed, which was signed well before Obama took office. As a nation, we have to honor our treaties or not a single one of them is valid.
If we do that, think of it like Hitler's invasion of Czechoslovakia. Europe did nothing. Then he invaded Austria, Europe did nothing. It only got worse from there. We do have something to learn from history.
Anyway, even Russia and Iran are calling for cooperation from Syria now, which is a huge step in the right direction. The entire area has been a smoldering ember for decades.
The one thing I'm sure of is that Obama will not go off half cocked and start shooting, regardless of the HUGE desire from the entire Republican side to just do it. Unlike Bush, Obama will likely allow the UN inspectors to complete their job.
You should be grateful that we have a peacenik Democrat for President. The response from Romney would have been missiles fired day before yesterday.
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
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Post by Sabre52 on Aug 27, 2013 23:10:41 GMT -5
Helen: I don't believe it is our duty to police the world and the majority of the folks in the country agree with me. I doubt very much the CWC agreement says much other than the cosigners agree not to manufacture or use those weapons. Doubt it says don't use the stuff or it will be the responsibility of the United States to start a war with you. And again conventional weapons make you just as dead and Obama has sat for a year with his thumb up his ass while 100,000 have died. No difference how you die in my book. It's just that Obama stuck his neck out with his red line talk and now he's stuck. If it were George Bush doing this, you'd freaking be getting carpel tunnel typing all your condemnations of him going to war......Mel
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Post by helens on Aug 27, 2013 23:12:59 GMT -5
Mel, I AGREE with that. I have said it, repeatedly.
This isn't policing the world. This is honoring a treaty WE SIGNED YEARS AGO.
And you are getting incredibly paranoid about something that has not happened yet. Foreign Policy is often a huge game of chicken. From the Monroe Doctrine, to the Cuban Missile Crisis, to Reagan's Cold War rhetoric (and threats)... this is nothing new at all.
Also...this is 100% Obama's responsibility. UNLIKE laws that are Congress's responsibility, we elect a President to deal with Foreign Policy and be Commander in Chief.
Our only choices at the time were Obama vs Romney.
Be very very glad that we have a President who can at least relate to the middle class and poor... the guys who will do all the dying when the shit hits the fan. Romney would have related to the soldiers about as well as to pieces on a chessboard, just like Bush did. If Obama CANNOT find a peaceful solution, there wasn't one. Then it's how do we mitigate the damage. War with Russia and China at the same time would be painful for us, and probably unwinnable.
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Sabre52
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Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,487
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Post by Sabre52 on Aug 28, 2013 8:28:47 GMT -5
Helen: I hope you are right but fear as usual *S*, you are wrong.....Mel
Obama has as much likelihood of actually relating to the poor and middle class as I do to get a date with Julia Roberts. He's just another ruling class rich elitist like all the rest, including Romney. Even though he calls himself black, unemployment, crime and everything else bad for African Americans has gone up or remained high under his rule. Entire middle class is going down the toilet under him while the rich still get richer, including him. He and all his appointees are poison to the US economy, the poor, and the working middle class....Mel
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2013 10:02:20 GMT -5
If this is the result, the signing the treaty was a big mistake. Seems like a perfect time to tell them to kiss off. Reject the bad treaty.
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grayfingers
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Member since November 2007
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Post by grayfingers on Aug 28, 2013 10:14:36 GMT -5
Helen, Show us the treaty you are referring to that says we are committed to 'punishing' the use of chemical weapons. I don't see that anywhere in the Chemical Weapons Convention.
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Aug 28, 2013 11:20:08 GMT -5
She is licking her wounds from other lost arguments. We could take up a collection for flowers and a get well card. Poor thing
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robsrockshop
has rocks in the head
Member since August 2012
Posts: 715
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Post by robsrockshop on Aug 28, 2013 11:43:56 GMT -5
Damn. I'm gona go fill up all my gas cans today and stock up on beer. I already have 400 cans of spam(no kidding) and i'm not buying anymore because if I actually have to eat that crap everyday for a year i'm just gona kill myself.
Glenn Becks pissed me off a few times but he makes some sense here. Hell even if nukes didn't hit the US a bunch of them set off overseas could ruin us. I'm into the conspiracy theory realm.......mainly because there's a lot conspiracy theories out there. Unfort all of this is looking all too real.
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robsrockshop
has rocks in the head
Member since August 2012
Posts: 715
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Post by robsrockshop on Aug 28, 2013 11:46:18 GMT -5
"War with Russia and China at the same time would be painful for us, and probably unwinnable."
LOL, isn't 'painful' a bit under-diagnosed? Actually it could be 'painless' because you won't feel a damn thing if you're dead.
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Post by helens on Aug 28, 2013 11:47:46 GMT -5
We'll see who's right won't we? As usual.
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robsrockshop
has rocks in the head
Member since August 2012
Posts: 715
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Post by robsrockshop on Aug 28, 2013 11:48:53 GMT -5
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grayfingers
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Posts: 4,575
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Post by grayfingers on Aug 28, 2013 13:30:24 GMT -5
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Post by helens on Aug 28, 2013 14:35:04 GMT -5
Can't have it both ways. This is an 'open' Presidency and has been from day 1. That's one way you can tell how dumb the detractors are, they look for conspiracies because past admin had a lot of secrets. And they can't find any. That's why it's funny:).
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grayfingers
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Member since November 2007
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Post by grayfingers on Aug 28, 2013 14:49:45 GMT -5
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Post by helens on Aug 28, 2013 14:53:39 GMT -5
It takes manpower/manhours to process FOIA requests. Did Congress give the Admin a bigger budget to hire people to do this processing, and I just happened to miss seeing that?
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grayfingers
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Member since November 2007
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Post by grayfingers on Aug 28, 2013 14:57:08 GMT -5
It takes manpower/manhours to process FOIA requests. Did Congress give the Admin a bigger budget to hire people to do this processing, and I just happened to miss seeing that?
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Post by helens on Aug 28, 2013 15:13:52 GMT -5
What's lame about having to cut your budget back and fire people because of costs? You want extra people to do paperwork, you budget it, don't cry about it not getting done because there's no one to do it.
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grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Aug 28, 2013 15:41:24 GMT -5
Back to topic. This is a good and IMO very accurate read. Obama proceeds in Syria without popular support www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/27/obama-proceeds-in-syria-without-popular-support/. . ."Americans liked Obama's foreign policy better when they mistakenly thought he was a peacenik. War-weary and frustrated after the years spent struggling in Iraq and Afghanistan, Americans welcomed Obama's rejection of the Bush Doctrine for the Muslim World. They liked the sound of "nation building here at home." Less guns, more butter and Usama bin Laden in a body bag. Winner. But as they have learned more about the Obama Doctrine for the region, Americans have recoiled. The president's plan for encouraging and empowering Islamist factions in the Middle East in a bid to midwife Western-style pluralism has not been what Americans are looking for. Islamist militants killing Americans with impunity in Benghazi, Libya and the sea-sick cycle of regime change in Egypt suggest that Obama's plan for transitional Islamism is not much working. It is far from unreasonable for Americans to conclude that they are not interested in seeing Obama again intervene on the side of the Islamists in the hope that this time will work out better. Given that Syria has weapons of mass destruction, formidable allies in Iran and Russia and is near enough to bomb Jerusalem, the idea of another Libya-style intervention looks unhappier still. Voters are learning that liberal interventionists are interventionists too, and it's a lesson they're not very happy about".. .
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Post by helens on Aug 28, 2013 15:55:41 GMT -5
Obama is a peacenik. But if you draw a line in the sand, and you don't back it up when that line is crossed, you lose credibility. A couple of missiles will fix that. In either case, nothing's happened yet, and no one's mobilizing for war, it's premature for paranoia.
As for impunity for killing Americans in Benghazi, there's no evidence of this, but I'm quite sure the CIA and many gov't agencies have been busy in that area since it happened. My surmise is, those people won't be killing any more Americans.
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