|
Post by gmitch067 on Nov 18, 2017 17:26:21 GMT -5
I usually see manufactures recommend using more grit per stage than is necessary, and wanted to ask those members who use the Mini-Sonic 4 how much grit per load they have found to work well.
Diamond Pacific’s MT-4SV Owner’s manual recommends the following:
(Note: This is for wet loads – not Vibra-Dry+ dry polishing mix… using about 2 lbs rock and ceramics to fill a 4H hopper 2/3 full, or within 2 inches from the top)
Step-1: 60/90 SiC grit, 6 tsp, 4-5 day run time
Step-2: 220 SiC grit, 5 tsp, 3-4 day run time
Step-3: 600 SiC grit, 4 tsp, 2-3 day run time
Step-4: AO-1000, 2 tsp, 1-3 day run time
Step-5: AO-14000 polish, 2 tsp, 1-2 day run time
(Followed by a burnish run for 4 hrs)
Does the amount of grit per load sound correct… or is it too extravagant?
|
|
unclesoska
freely admits to licking rocks
All those jade boulders tossed in search of gold!
Member since February 2011
Posts: 934
|
Post by unclesoska on Nov 19, 2017 11:49:50 GMT -5
The hopper on the MT-4 appears indestructible, but I assure you it is not. Repeated use of 60/90 WILL thin your hopper bottom over time. Best to do the course grind in a rotary. I think the manufacturer's recipe is a bit heavy, I started w/ 1 tbsp of 220 for 3 days, followed by 1 tbsp. 600 for 2 days, then 2 tsp. AO prepolish, and then 1 tsp. AO polish. Finish w/ a borax burnish, 1 tbsp. for 4 hours. I used this for agates primarily, but it also worked well on lavic jasper. Be careful of adding too much water as this will slow everything. Good Luck!
|
|
|
Post by gmitch067 on Nov 19, 2017 14:52:32 GMT -5
The hopper on the MT-4 appears indestructible, but I assure you it is not. Repeated use of 60/90 WILL thin your hopper bottom over time. Best to do the course grind in a rotary. I think the manufacturer's recipe is a bit heavy, I started w/ 1 tbsp of 220 for 3 days, followed by 1 tbsp. 600 for 2 days, then 2 tsp. AO prepolish, and then 1 tsp. AO polish. Finish w/ a borax burnish, 1 tbsp. for 4 hours. I used this for agates primarily, but it also worked well on lavic jasper. Be careful of adding too much water as this will slow everything. Good Luck! Just the information I was looking for Unclesoska. Thank you! I will heed your advice and do Stage-1 60/90 in the rotary tumbler before shifting to the vibe, and I will cut the recommended amount of grit(s) used in each stage. As for water... Like the Lot-O... it looks like I will just wet the rocks and drain out any excess before running a load.
|
|
Enigman
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since December 2013
Posts: 163
|
Post by Enigman on Nov 19, 2017 15:52:38 GMT -5
I use a multiple MT4 vibes for all my final polishing. All prior stages are done in rotary machines. For polishing, my best combo so far is 2 heaping tablespoons of aluminum oxide polish with a scoop of borax about the size of an egg. The borax prevents the polish from foaming and makes a creamy slurry that stays with the stones. I add just enough water to keep the slurry about like thick milk. One caveate is that I omit the borax from soft stones. I have found that borax in the polish or in a burnish stage will attack some softer stones (like sanskrit stone and apatite) and actually remove the polish gloss during burnishing.
|
|
|
Post by TheRock on Nov 19, 2017 15:54:20 GMT -5
gmitch067 Glenn neat looking tumbler what is the size capacity of it?
|
|
unclesoska
freely admits to licking rocks
All those jade boulders tossed in search of gold!
Member since February 2011
Posts: 934
|
Post by unclesoska on Nov 19, 2017 16:36:51 GMT -5
The hopper on the MT-4 appears indestructible, but I assure you it is not. Repeated use of 60/90 WILL thin your hopper bottom over time. Best to do the course grind in a rotary. I think the manufacturer's recipe is a bit heavy, I started w/ 1 tbsp of 220 for 3 days, followed by 1 tbsp. 600 for 2 days, then 2 tsp. AO prepolish, and then 1 tsp. AO polish. Finish w/ a borax burnish, 1 tbsp. for 4 hours. I used this for agates primarily, but it also worked well on lavic jasper. Be careful of adding too much water as this will slow everything. Good Luck! Just the information I was looking for Unclesoska. Thank you! I will heed your advice and do Stage-1 60/90 in the rotary tumbler before shifting to the vibe, and I will cut the recommended amount of grit(s) used in each stage. As for water... Like the Lot-O... it looks like I will just wet the rocks and drain out any excess before running a load. Yes, I also just cover the rocks w/ water and hold my hand over the opening, and invert to drain the water. I usually then add 1 tsp. of water to start. I like that you can run without the lid and check slurry and action too. Not to mention the speed adjustment.
|
|
|
Post by gmitch067 on Nov 19, 2017 17:24:59 GMT -5
I use a multiple MT4 vibes for all my final polishing. All prior stages are done in rotary machines. For polishing, my best combo so far is 2 heaping tablespoons of aluminum oxide polish with a scoop of borax about the size of an egg. The borax prevents the polish from foaming and makes a creamy slurry that stays with the stones. I add just enough water to keep the slurry about like thick milk. One caveate is that I omit the borax from soft stones. I have found that borax in the polish or in a burnish stage will attack some softer stones (like sanskrit stone and apatite) and actually remove the polish gloss during burnishing. Thank you Enigman for the advice... 'Very helpful! I did not know the borax would affect the softer stones - good to know (even when using other tumblers)!
|
|
|
Post by gmitch067 on Nov 19, 2017 17:45:21 GMT -5
gmitch067 Glenn neat looking tumbler what is the size capacity of it? The Diamond Pacific Mini-Sonic MT-4SV utilizes a single 4-H (4 lb) hopper. I decided to purchase the Mini-Sonic over the Lot-O because it fits better into my limited space and is easily stowed when I swap out with other tumblers. The Lot-O might be a better tumbler, but once it is anchored to a brick or table top my available working space is severely impacted (I could use some extra space - like your place - but I would have a collection of tumblers instead of tractors. LOL!). I am not due to receive it until later this next week - from The Rock Shed. I just like to get my ducks in a row first - before it arrives.
|
|
|
Post by gmitch067 on Nov 19, 2017 17:54:47 GMT -5
Just the information I was looking for Unclesoska. Thank you! I will heed your advice and do Stage-1 60/90 in the rotary tumbler before shifting to the vibe, and I will cut the recommended amount of grit(s) used in each stage. As for water... Like the Lot-O... it looks like I will just wet the rocks and drain out any excess before running a load. Yes, I also just cover the rocks w/ water and hold my hand over the opening, and invert to drain the water. I usually then add 1 tsp. of water to start. I like that you can run without the lid and check slurry and action too. Not to mention the speed adjustment. unclesoskaSpeed adjustment on the Mini-Sonic will be a challenge. I have been following jamesp thread closely with the hope I can get a few pointers. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/80993/speed-vibe-1725-rpm-3450
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Nov 19, 2017 18:52:28 GMT -5
Yes, I also just cover the rocks w/ water and hold my hand over the opening, and invert to drain the water. I usually then add 1 tsp. of water to start. I like that you can run without the lid and check slurry and action too. Not to mention the speed adjustment. unclesoskaSpeed adjustment on the Mini-Sonic will be a challenge. I have been following jamesp thread closely with the hope I can get a few pointers. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/80993/speed-vibe-1725-rpm-3450One of these days we may get that low speed vibe humming.
|
|
Enigman
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since December 2013
Posts: 163
|
Post by Enigman on Nov 19, 2017 19:17:21 GMT -5
Thank you Enigman for the advice... 'Very helpful! I did not know the borax would affect the softer stones - good to know (even when using other tumblers)! At this point it is an observation. I was having a rough time getting a polish on both sanskrit stone and blue apatite and I noticed when I was rinsing the stones between the polish and burnish stages that they had some gloss, but then after burnishing with borax they were dead flat. I decided to just pass on the borax burnish for all soft stones and just use soap flakes for those stones.
|
|
Enigman
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since December 2013
Posts: 163
|
Post by Enigman on Nov 19, 2017 19:22:07 GMT -5
I am not due to receive it until later this next week - from The Rock Shed. I just like to get my ducks in a row first - before it arrives. One thing you'll like about the MT4 is that it is VERY quiet compared to all the other vibes. I have all of mine running in an apartment 2nd bedroom and I can't her them once I leave that room.
|
|
|
Post by gmitch067 on Nov 20, 2017 10:00:53 GMT -5
amygdule posted a very nice video of the Mini-Sonic 4 during a run... Mesmerizing! forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/80993/speed-vibe-1725-rpm-3450 (see page-1) It shows (at time 1:15) change of speed to a higher setting. Lots of action at the rheostat's high settings! (I worry about TOO MUCH action???) I noted that there were no ceramics showing... So I guess as long as there is a good balance of sizes, ceramic filler is not necessary. Does it handle small ceramics well... (or does it require an 80/20 blend of large to small)?
|
|
|
Post by amygdule on Nov 20, 2017 11:42:35 GMT -5
gmitch067I was using obsidian that I busted up for the filler while tumbling amethyst, opal and glass. The results were pretty good. That was a few years ago, and I don't remember the steps that I used. To the question you asked in the other thread. I had it set up about 20 feet away in the same room where I spent 12+ hours a day listening to it hum along. After a few months, I got tired of listening to it. Good luck with your new toy.
|
|
|
Post by johnjsgems on Nov 20, 2017 14:20:03 GMT -5
Tablespoon sounds about right to me. If the noise does bother you it is maybe the only tumbler you can run on a scrap of carpet without either blocking airflow to motor or clogging motor vents with carpet fuzzies. Or put tumbler in a box. No motor equals no motor overheating issues. I too found dulling of softer stones after burnishing with Tide. Probably some borax in the magic ingredients. Use plenty of filler (ceramic or other smalls) around 30% by volume (or 70% when doing flats).
|
|
gemfeller
Cave Dweller
Member since June 2011
Posts: 3,774
|
Post by gemfeller on Nov 20, 2017 19:09:43 GMT -5
Apart from rotaries for initial shaping, the Vibrasonic is the only tumbler I've used over the past 30+ years. I have the 2-barrel model and love it. The barrel design makes it very gentle on the contents. As for water I use the same method as unclesoska: wet the contents completely, drain and use only the water that's left. I use only about a slightly rounded teaspoon of grits for each sanding stage then monitor after an hour or so to see what the "mud" looks like. I think the ideal water/grit ratio results in a mix about like thin pancake batter. You want to coat the stones uniformly, not have them swimming in water. I often have to add a tiny bit of water after 12 or 24 hours. I also use half of a Tumble-Tab with the prepolish and polish stages. They help thicken the mix and create more friction for polishing action. They don't make them any more and I'm running out. Maybe someone will suggest another thickening agent. I've heard sugar works but haven't experimented with it. I always make sure to have plenty of smalls in the mix to make sure all areas of the stones are in contact with grit. I also use small non-abrasive ceramic media as part of my standard reusable mix, along with the smalls, to help spread the grit where it needs to be. They're the little short white rods with slanted ends. They last a long time -- just screen them out, clean them carefully and store until needed next.
|
|
|
Post by gmitch067 on Nov 20, 2017 20:11:16 GMT -5
Apart from rotaries for initial shaping, the Vibrasonic is the only tumbler I've used over the past 30+ years. I have the 2-barrel model and love it. The barrel design makes it very gentle on the contents. As for water I use the same method as unclesoska : wet the contents completely, drain and use only the water that's left. I use only about a slightly rounded teaspoon of grits for each sanding stage then monitor after an hour or so to see what the "mud" looks like. I think the ideal water/grit ratio results in a mix about like thin pancake batter. You want to coat the stones uniformly, not have them swimming in water. I often have to add a tiny bit of water after 12 or 24 hours. I also use half of a Tumble-Tab with the prepolish and polish stages. They help thicken the mix and create more friction for polishing action. They don't make them any more and I'm running out. Maybe someone will suggest another thickening agent. I've heard sugar works but haven't experimented with it. I always make sure to have plenty of smalls in the mix to make sure all areas of the stones are in contact with grit. I also use small non-abrasive ceramic media as part of my standard reusable mix, along with the smalls, to help spread the grit where it needs to be. They're the little short white rods with slanted ends. They last a long time -- just screen them out, clean them carefully and store until needed next. Good information from everyone! Thank you. I have heard that the ceramic material has a small percentage of abrasive Aluminum Carbide in it's makeup. I now make sure the ceramics I use have had a few runs in 80 grit to get a bit rounded before using them in a vibe. Someone ( jamesp ?) made a statement that small ceramics interrupts the vibe motion... but I have not found that post in my searches to verify it (was it for Vibrasonics or for UV-10/18 vibes???) I'm not sure what is a good replacement for the Tumble-Tab is. I have been using Borax as a thickener, and I have also heard that some people use sugar. Now I am concerned that Borax might react with some of the softer stones... jamesp was doing experiments with pumice which might take the place of a thickener agent.
|
|
gemfeller
Cave Dweller
Member since June 2011
Posts: 3,774
|
Post by gemfeller on Nov 21, 2017 1:06:18 GMT -5
gmitch067: I'm not certain that what I called "ceramic" material is really ceramic. Mine has absolutely no abrasive but in the dark recesses of my memory I recall buying it as synthetic corundum (9 hardness), not ceramic. It looks identical to the ceramic media and I'm not really certain about exactly what it is. I've used it over and over for years with very little wear. If borax works as a thickener it's probably good for me. I very seldom tumble anything but agates and jaspers or faceting material that needs "windowing." Most of the latter is very hard, at least 6.5 or 7 and up.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
|
Post by jamesp on Nov 22, 2017 7:57:02 GMT -5
"I have heard that the ceramic material has a small percentage of abrasive Aluminum Carbide in it's makeup. I now make sure the ceramics I use have had a few runs in 80 grit to get a bit rounded before using them in a vibe. Someone ( jamesp ?) made a statement that small ceramics interrupts the vibe motion... but I have not found that post in my searches to verify it (was it for Vibrasonics or for UV-10/18 vibes???)" Much ceramic media is 96 to 98% aluminum oxide. Alum Ox is a ceramic. As is silicon carbide. Lots n lots of ceramics out there. 100's of aluminum oxide formulations with many intents. Manufacturer has to know explicitly what you expect from it. Small ceramics does not hinder vibe movement in my Vibrasonic, but small ceramics or any smaller(less than 3/8") media greatly reduces grind time. Large ceramics/media speeds up grind time. But may damage tender rocks.... amygdule said that ceramic media slows or stops the rolling action in the Mini-Sonic if I am not mistaken. amygdule ?
|
|
|
Post by amygdule on Nov 22, 2017 9:21:58 GMT -5
"I have heard that the ceramic material has a small percentage of abrasive Aluminum Carbide in it's makeup. I now make sure the ceramics I use have had a few runs in 80 grit to get a bit rounded before using them in a vibe. Someone ( jamesp ?) made a statement that small ceramics interrupts the vibe motion... but I have not found that post in my searches to verify it (was it for Vibrasonics or for UV-10/18 vibes???)" amygdule said that ceramic media slows or stops the rolling action in the Mini-Sonic if I am not mistaken. amygdule ? I don't think I ever said that. I have never even used ceramics.
|
|