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Post by Rockoonz on Jan 26, 2019 20:41:07 GMT -5
rockjunquie: Interesting comment. You don't suppose there can be more than one variety of what you call Indonesian palm root? Just sayin? Cheers, johnw I wouldn’t think that to be impossible. Different species. Different ages. Different compositions of silica/minerals.... There indeed could be such a thing, but this ain't it. When you find palm root it comes out of the ground as petrified root balls, very defined shapes with long roots. This stuff comes in "death plates", like other non plant fossils, and the round eye like features, when viewed 90 degrees to the round shape, become ovals that are remarkably identical in size, like you would see in larvae. The chance that this was vegetation is zero.
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Post by johnw on Jan 26, 2019 22:50:39 GMT -5
I wouldn’t think that to be impossible. Different species. Different ages. Different compositions of silica/minerals.... There indeed could be such a thing, but this ain't it. When you find palm root it comes out of the ground as petrified root balls, very defined shapes with long roots. This stuff comes in "death plates", like other non plant fossils, and the round eye like features, when viewed 90 degrees to the round shape, become ovals that are remarkably identical in size, like you would see in larvae. The chance that this was vegetation is zero. Rockoonz : Oh my, first we got "Maggot Agate" now we got 'Death Plates" what more devastation can we wrought on the poor rock? Okay, starting Monday, we'll have a contest to "Name that Rock" so at least we can all agree on a name while here on RTH. I will, with Tela aka rockjunquie develop the rules and post them Sunday night. That said, Rockoonz can you show me where I can get this "Death Plates" knowledge from? I really gotta get to the bottom of this and put it to rest since the Mineral.Net site is a bit slow in responding to my question regarding this stone. Oh well, in the meantime I will continue calling it "Eye Candy" on account it looks pleasing to he eye. Rockoonz one final question, Do you suppose the "lavea" could have imbedded themselves in the rootball, incubated and hatched and then for whatever freak of nature got agitized in place? Cheers, johnw
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Post by johnw on Jan 26, 2019 23:10:28 GMT -5
I wouldn’t think that to be impossible. Different species. Different ages. Different compositions of silica/minerals.... There indeed could be such a thing, but this ain't it. When you find palm root it comes out of the ground as petrified root balls, very defined shapes with long roots. This stuff comes in "death plates", like other non plant fossils, and the round eye like features, when viewed 90 degrees to the round shape, become ovals that are remarkably identical in size, like you would see in larvae. The chance that this was vegetation is zero. Rockoonz: Are you talking about something like this? Cheers, johnw Image by Linda
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Post by stephan on Jan 26, 2019 23:32:19 GMT -5
I wouldn’t think that to be impossible. Different species. Different ages. Different compositions of silica/minerals.... There indeed could be such a thing, but this ain't it. When you find palm root it comes out of the ground as petrified root balls, very defined shapes with long roots. This stuff comes in "death plates", like other non plant fossils, and the round eye like features, when viewed 90 degrees to the round shape, become ovals that are remarkably identical in size, like you would see in larvae. The chance that this was vegetation is zero. No opinion on what this actually is, since I have zero expertise with palm. I was just answering the posed question of whether it is possible, and thinking that many stones come in multiple morphologies, for the lack of a better word. I’m thinking of Dino bone, pet wood and other fossilized/agatized remains having many different looks, not to mention non-fossil rocks like poppy jaspers looking very different, even from the same general locale.
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Post by Rockoonz on Jan 27, 2019 2:05:17 GMT -5
There indeed could be such a thing, but this ain't it. When you find palm root it comes out of the ground as petrified root balls, very defined shapes with long roots. This stuff comes in "death plates", like other non plant fossils, and the round eye like features, when viewed 90 degrees to the round shape, become ovals that are remarkably identical in size, like you would see in larvae. The chance that this was vegetation is zero. Rockoonz : Oh my, first we got "Maggot Agate" now we got 'Death Plates" what more devastation can we wrought on the poor rock? Okay, starting Monday, we'll have a contest to "Name that Rock" so at least we can all agree on a name while here on RTH. I will, with Tela aka rockjunquie develop the rules and post them Sunday night. That said, Rockoonz can you show me where I can get this "Death Plates" knowledge from? I really gotta get to the bottom of this and put it to rest since the Mineral.Net site is a bit slow in responding to my question regarding this stone. Oh well, in the meantime I will continue calling it "Eye Candy" on account it looks pleasing to he eye. Rockoonz one final question, Do you suppose the "lavea" could have imbedded themselves in the rootball, incubated and hatched and then for whatever freak of nature got agitized in place? Cheers, johnw Death plates are basically layers of dead critters that become fossilized. Turitella, Crinoids, and a whole bunch of other fossils formed that way, theoretically from large die offs that end up with masses of them large enough to form into the huge pockets they find in lots of places. It may not be a correct term for non marine life, but it works for me. The kicker for me, though is the almost perfectly uniform size of the "eyes" in the eye candy, and the ovoid shape. My actual palm root has a wide variety of sizes in the eyes, and a definite pattern of larger in the center of the ball and smaller as you get closer to the outside, just as you would expect a root ball to look. Also, with real palm the roots are not all perfectly round, and can be seen curving sometimes from a side view like the flame look in the stuff rockjunquie posted pics of.
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Post by miket on Jan 27, 2019 5:59:40 GMT -5
Beautiful
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Jan 27, 2019 10:33:29 GMT -5
This thread opens one's eyes as to how absolutely difficult it is to get fine materials. Almost any AAA grade agate in particular.
If you collect yourself and you find some real trophy agates they are usually not something you want to part with. And most people will not pay your price, "it is just agate" is a common mindset.
There is likely a long list of buyers with fat pockets buying most of the Indonesian material. Or they buy all that is mined leaving little high grade material for the little guy.
I found some fine agates on the Rio and posted photos of them on the RTH. I have had countless requests by people wanting to collect on the Rio. How ? Where ? When ? Most of it was collected on private land with permissions so the locations could not be disclosed. No way I was putting myself at risk of angering the people that gave permission. So is part of the problem. There used to be publications on collection locations till liability issues got out of control. And the new rules about collecting on BLM.
Another problem was created when China entered the market and become a deep pocket buyer. Many Brazilian agate mines are now owned by the Chinese. Likely they bought mines in India, Madagascar, Indo and other agate rich countries.
There are also political issues. Many countries are dangerous to travel to. Or these countries are getting more concerned about their environment and try to avoid land disturbance. I know China was put on restrictions in Brazil due to environmental damages caused by some of their agate mines. And Indonesians are protective of their mineral resources making it difficult for outsiders to mine or collect resources.
EBAY may be the best outlet for a time to come since they have the direct import business so streamlined. But there are so many unscrupulous sellers on EBAY. What you see in the photo aint exactly what you receive. Try to buy jade on EBAY. There are many importers selling serpentine falsely as jade. EBAY does a poor job of protecting buyers from deceptive ads for rocks.
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Post by johnw on Jan 27, 2019 13:12:25 GMT -5
Rockoonz : Oh my, first we got "Maggot Agate" now we got 'Death Plates" what more devastation can we wrought on the poor rock? Okay, starting Monday, we'll have a contest to "Name that Rock" so at least we can all agree on a name while here on RTH. I will, with Tela aka rockjunquie develop the rules and post them Sunday night. That said, Rockoonz can you show me where I can get this "Death Plates" knowledge from? I really gotta get to the bottom of this and put it to rest since the Mineral.Net site is a bit slow in responding to my question regarding this stone. Oh well, in the meantime I will continue calling it "Eye Candy" on account it looks pleasing to he eye. Rockoonz one final question, Do you suppose the "lavea" could have imbedded themselves in the rootball, incubated and hatched and then for whatever freak of nature got agitized in place? Cheers, johnw Death plates are basically layers of dead critters that become fossilized. Turitella, Crinoids, and a whole bunch of other fossils formed that way, theoretically from large die offs that end up with masses of them large enough to form into the huge pockets they find in lots of places. It may not be a correct term for non marine life, but it works for me. The kicker for me, though is the almost perfectly uniform size of the "eyes" in the eye candy, and the ovoid shape. My actual palm root has a wide variety of sizes in the eyes, and a definite pattern of larger in the center of the ball and smaller as you get closer to the outside, just as you would expect a root ball to look. Also, with real palm the roots are not all perfectly round, and can be seen curving sometimes from a side view like the flame look in the stuff rockjunquie posted pics of. Rockoonz: Thanks for the explanation. Can you shoot a couple of pictures of what you have? Cheers, johnw
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Post by johnw on Jan 27, 2019 13:57:53 GMT -5
This thread opens one's eyes as to how absolutely difficult it is to get fine materials. Almost any AAA grade agate in particular. If you collect yourself and you find some real trophy agates they are usually not something you want to part with. And most people will not pay your price, "it is just agate" is a common mindset. There is likely a long list of buyers with fat pockets buying most of the Indonesian material. Or they buy all that is mined leaving little high grade material for the little guy. I found some fine agates on the Rio and posted photos of them on the RTH. I have had countless requests by people wanting to collect on the Rio. How ? Where ? When ? Most of it was collected on private land with permissions so the locations could not be disclosed. No way I was putting myself at risk of angering the people that gave permission. So is part of the problem. There used to be publications on collection locations till liability issues got out of control. And the new rules about collecting on BLM. Another problem was created when China entered the market and become a deep pocket buyer. Many Brazilian agate mines are now owned by the Chinese. Likely they bought mines in India, Madagascar, Indo and other agate rich countries. There are also political issues. Many countries are dangerous to travel to. Or these countries are getting more concerned about their environment and try to avoid land disturbance. I know China was put on restrictions in Brazil due to environmental damages caused by some of their agate mines. And Indonesians are protective of their mineral resources making it difficult for outsiders to mine or collect resources. EBAY may be the best outlet for a time to come since they have the direct import business so streamlined. But there are so many unscrupulous sellers on EBAY. What you see in the photo aint exactly what you receive. Try to buy jade on EBAY. There are many importers selling serpentine falsely as jade. EBAY does a poor job of protecting buyers from deceptive ads for rocks. jamesp : James you are absolutely correct in your assessment. For many years I stayed away from eBay and collected myself and bought at local rock shops. It worked for me and then I went to Asia and all stopped. Fast forward to 2012 when I retired. I was not too inclined to be a hound anymore so opened up communications with Shawn at the Rock Shed. Shawn, I have found is a very reliable supplier for all types of rocks and equipment. I buy all my Bahia's and Lace from him plus equipment, except my Covington. I expanded into Ebay purchases earlier in 2018 and have stuck with three very reliable dealers and have no complaints with their products or services. A few more comment in support of your observations: the images that get posted do not always convey exactly what you think you are getting. They are skillfully positioned to get the beat visual reaction. And, as to eBAy pricing, yeah, they are on the high side depending who you purchase from, but you can get some really good deals, at a fair price, particularly when you have developed a good relationship with the sellers. Just my observations and humble opinion. Cheers, johnw
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Post by johnw on Jan 27, 2019 16:06:51 GMT -5
rockjunquie I still haven't got any of the root with the flame look, love that stuff. I feel like starting a thread about overly ambitious Indonesian (and other overseas) rock dealers. I'm fine with marketing your stuff but sheesh... A couple years ago, I bought a bunch of slabs and have been hoarding it. I don't see it as often anymore. It's beautiful stuff. rockjunquie : Is that a hint? Cheers, johnw
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Jan 28, 2019 9:14:56 GMT -5
johnw, it is not easy to get really really nice agates. Especially larger pieces like the large crazy lace you are tumbling. One of the best sources is 'old stock' but old stock is just what the name implies. You about have to be friends w/the beholder or politically connected to acquire it. quartz sent me some unusually large snakeskin agates. I believe it came from an elderly friend who was unloading his collection. rockpickerforever shops yard sales and that girl sure does find some nice material for great prices. Much of it is from an estate sale where Grandpa stacked his old finds in the backyard and he has passed away. The kids(our age) are unloading our parents stuff as fast as they can get rid of it so they can sell his house. At Woodward Ranch are displays of incredible old large plume agates that were surface collected to extinction. In another 10,000? 100,000? years perhaps rain and wind will erode enough basalt to expose the next layer of them. The geologist said they are in the basalt from surface to 100's of feet deep.
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Post by rockpickerforever on Jan 28, 2019 9:50:28 GMT -5
johnw , it is not easy to get really really nice agates. Especially larger pieces like the large crazy lace you are tumbling. One of the best sources is 'old stock' but old stock is just what the name implies. You about have to be friends w/the beholder or politically connected to acquire it. quartz sent me some unusually large snakeskin agates. I believe it came from an elderly friend who was unloading his collection. rockpickerforever shops yard sales and that girl sure does find some nice material for great prices. Much of it is from an estate sale where Grandpa stacked his old finds in the backyard and he has passed away. The kids(our age) are unloading our parents stuff as fast as they can get rid of it so they can sell his house. James, don't forget the free rock sales I find from time to time, lol.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Jan 28, 2019 10:10:28 GMT -5
Jean's Fine Rock Acquisition Service. Someone to learn from for sure.
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Post by fernwood on Jan 28, 2019 10:15:23 GMT -5
Another source for large agates/fossils (and other things) is freshly plowed fields. I discovered that one. Part of my land had not been plowed for over 20 years, probably longer. The plowing brought all sorts of large rocks to the surface. The renter was delayed in disking/planting, so I walked the fields after rains. My finds re-connected me to the lapidary world after an absence. Agates and fossils up to 8 lbs. were there. Renter also removed some large boulders. They were not agates, but mostly granite. Some were not granite and have interesting patterns on them. They are now in a pile on the edge of the field. Hope to figure out what they are come summer.
There are all sorts of treasures to be found in fields that have not been plowed for years.
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Post by HankRocks on Jan 28, 2019 10:15:26 GMT -5
johnw , it is not easy to get really really nice agates. Especially larger pieces like the large crazy lace you are tumbling. One of the best sources is 'old stock' but old stock is just what the name implies. You about have to be friends w/the beholder or politically connected to acquire it. quartz sent me some unusually large snakeskin agates. I believe it came from an elderly friend who was unloading his collection. rockpickerforever shops yard sales and that girl sure does find some nice material for great prices. Much of it is from an estate sale where Grandpa stacked his old finds in the backyard and he has passed away. The kids(our age) are unloading our parents stuff as fast as they can get rid of it so they can sell his house. At Woodward Ranch are displays of incredible old large plume agates that were surface collected to extinction. In another 10,000? 100,000? years perhaps rain and wind will erode enough basalt to expose the next layer of them. The geologist said they are in the basalt from surface to 100's of feet deep. You make a good point. A good bit of the "Old Stock" material that is available these days is in the hands of old collectors or their estates. If one is patient and looks around they can be found. I am fortunate enough to have found a couple that I have bought from. The gentleman in Rusk has tons of material collected years ago by various folks most of which is no longer available and is priced extremely well, at $1 a pound for 80% of the material. I saw 2 or 3 crates that looked to be Zapata material and grabbed a couple of pounds. Lots of other material that I was un-familiar with. (definitely going back to see him when I can stay for a whole day. One prerequisite for acquiring this material is to be friendly and polite and helpful. One gentlemen who I have known now for over two years has a large collection of rough, mostly Texas material. Over this time we have developed a friendship, I call him once every 2 weeks or so to see how he's doing, ask a Lapidary question, etc,etc. When I make run up to get rocks, I am very careful to let him pick out which rocks he wants to sell, I don't start grabbing anything I see and I let him set the price which for me is a real bargain. He must have dealt with someone who got pushy and wanted to low-ball him, and he doesn't want anything to do with that type of person. Heck he ends up giving me some stuff every time. When i get there I always ask if there is anything I can do around the house. One day he asked if I could clean the rain-gutters out which I happily did, another time I trimmed limbs for him and drug them away. Almost always bring up food for he and his wife, Soup, smoked chicken, fresh garden tomatoes. I am getting to the point that although finding material myself is still fun ,it's a lot easier to pick up at the old collections. Just need to find them and in my case I have been very lucky. I have seen the displays at Woodward Ranch, quite amazing material. I wonder what has become of them.
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Post by fernwood on Jan 28, 2019 11:20:28 GMT -5
HankRocks Agree. Sometimes it is all about patience and establishing the relationship. I am anticipating Summer, when I can hopefully see all of the rocks/slabs, etc., in the large storage units I visited this past summer. Have made a connection with the owner. There are almost a hundred LFRB's of laoidary items stored there, maybe more. Other boxes and totes. I was able to obtain many materials via trades with the owner, but only after I had purchased items from him a few times and spent hours talking with him. WE found a common interest, not only with rocks, but music. He let me crawl into one unit to get a tote for him. He knew it contained items he needed. These storage units are piled with stuff, about 6' high in places. He knows where all the lapidary stuff is. Also remembers approximately, when where he obtained items. What the seller said it was and where it was from. MY experiences with him were so rewarding. He is so knowledgeable about rocks. Loves talking about them. Also has some freebie trays available for children and others. The last time I was there, weather was not good. Very few customers. Him and I spent several hours talking. He had some rocks/fossils in a display case in one storage unit. Many others in cases on tables and some set out. He loves to share his knowledge. So, I was selecting certain pieces and asking about them. Almost everything I selected resulted in him telling me everything about it for 10-15 minutes. I had brought him some things. Earrings, as he loves earrings. Has many ear pierces. Some counter scraps. He took everything I brought. Then kept telling me to select some more things for trade. I started with more common items. He then told me take some of the good stuff. I kept selecting and he kept saying take more. He wanted to ensure that everything I selected was correctly packaged. Said he was looking forward to seeing me again next summer. He also has 2 more large storage units in another location filled with lapidary items. To me, this connection is very special.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Jan 28, 2019 11:28:03 GMT -5
Another source for large agates/fossils (and other things) is freshly plowed fields. I discovered that one. Part of my land had not been plowed for over 20 years, probably longer. The plowing brought all sorts of large rocks to the surface. The renter was delayed in disking/planting, so I walked the fields after rains. My finds re-connected me to the lapidary world after an absence. Agates and fossils up to 8 lbs. were there. Renter also removed some large boulders. They were not agates, but mostly granite. Some were not granite and have interesting patterns on them. They are now in a pile on the edge of the field. Hope to figure out what they are come summer. There are all sorts of treasures to be found in fields that have not been plowed for years. We got crap for rocks in Atlanta area. But fine artifacts from Native man. There is always large land clearings for our massive freight distribution business. These clearings can be gold mines for artifacts that have never seen the light of day. Especially if rain hinders their grading operations. We have 4 Amazon warehouses within 10 miles. The wife orders in the morning and often gets her stuff the same day. This arrangement created a curse, you know, a lady shopping too much lol. Farmers rock piles can also be productive. He probably had no idea they were specimen grade rocks in his pile.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Jan 28, 2019 11:29:43 GMT -5
Those private collections are sentimental to most HankRocks fernwood. The owners don't like their prized finds serving as door stops.
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Post by fernwood on Jan 28, 2019 11:46:56 GMT -5
Those private collections are sentimental to most HankRocks fernwood . The owners don't like their prized finds serving as door stops. Oh yes. Showing completed items helps a lot. All about trust that they will not be thrown in a rock garden or as a door stop. When one finds a person who is willing to share their life long collection with another who understands and appreciates what they have, it is a blessing. Karma from the Rock Gods.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Jan 28, 2019 12:04:56 GMT -5
Death plates are basically layers of dead critters that become fossilized. Turitella, Crinoids, and a whole bunch of other fossils formed that way, theoretically from large die offs that end up with masses of them large enough to form into the huge pockets they find in lots of places. It may not be a correct term for non marine life, but it works for me. The kicker for me, though is the almost perfectly uniform size of the "eyes" in the eye candy, and the ovoid shape. My actual palm root has a wide variety of sizes in the eyes, and a definite pattern of larger in the center of the ball and smaller as you get closer to the outside, just as you would expect a root ball to look. Also, with real palm the roots are not all perfectly round, and can be seen curving sometimes from a side view like the flame look in the stuff rockjunquie posted pics of. Rockoonz: Thanks for the explanation. Can you shoot a couple of pictures of what you have? Cheers, johnw Here's a death plate from Alpena, Michigan. This is limestone.
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