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Post by RocksInNJ on Jan 27, 2020 6:41:00 GMT -5
Thanks, that's good to know! I guess I'll pepper it in with the 60/90 to get rid of it. Is there an optimal RPM to run with the barrel? I'm sure there are benefits and downfalls to faster or slower speeds. I will look it up, but figured you would know for sure while I would have to decipher the internets answers. My Harbor Freight rig is running about 46 bucket revolutions per minute. The Lortone is running about 62 bucket revolutions per minute. Optimal may be different than what is supplied by a given manufacturer. I don't know the diameter of you HF barrel in relation to a Lortone three-pound barrel, but I seem to recall that a Lortone barrel of your size will normally turn around 45 RPMs or so. What Lortone do you have that runs at 62 RPMs? That is one of the highest, if not the highest, RPM numbers I've seen for a Lortone. Agreed, those number seem pretty high. Especially for the Lortone.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,154
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Post by jamesp on Jan 27, 2020 8:07:53 GMT -5
stewdogg"Is there an optimal RPM to run with the barrel?" Optimum requires a complicated answer. The barrel diameter is the controlling factor. Slow for large barrels, slow for small. A good user friendly RPM is the speed of most factory tumblers. I did optimum speed experiments along with whatever it took to accomplish the fastest grind rate. Found that it was like building a racing engine. Changes had to be made from bottom to top. These were the factors. They are all fairly basic: higher rpm for given a barrel diameter sticky slick slurry increasing doses of larger more aggressive silicon carbide wear proof barrels to handle the larger silicon carbide focus on a good mix of rock sizes optimum barrel fill a rugged tumbler to handle higher speeds reliably And like a race engine more maintenance required. Foam is a bad thing. It makes the slurry less dense. The local clay I use for a slurry thickener solved my foaming problems except when tumbling metals. If rolling metals foam is always present regardless of slurry additive.
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gatorflash1
spending too much on rocks
Active in Delaware Mineralogical Society, Cabchon Grinding and Polishing, 2 Thumlers B's and a UV-18
Member since October 2018
Posts: 375
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Post by gatorflash1 on Jan 27, 2020 8:48:43 GMT -5
Haha, I should have called this thread non stop learning or too dumb to tumble... Just playing, but I seem to be making all the mistakes a novice can make. So, I went down this morning and my mix was still very foamy. I took some rocks, a bunch more water and foam out of the barrels. I think I was being a bit overzealous with my 75% full barrel, I'm thinking I was closer to 80-85% full. So too many rocks and too much water at the same time. I feel much better about how it sounds now... sounds likes rocks tumbling like crazy. I feel better about my chances of seeing some slurry instead of foam in the next couple of days. Thanks for dealing with my noob comments and questions you have all seen a million times in this wonderful community. You have more interest than those around me about hearing the fine details of my new hobby, thanks again! Stew - I sympathize with you. I have been in your shoes. The important thing to remember, if you want to be a rock tumbler, is to never quite, and don't be afraid to do a little experimenting. I've never found two rocks that were identical so my tumbling tweaks.
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stewdogg
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2020
Posts: 388
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Post by stewdogg on Jan 27, 2020 10:07:23 GMT -5
That's funny because I figured the fast moving Lortone was the one with the correct speed, but is seems the HF is closer to ideal. I'll compare the diameter of the barrels, but I'm pretty sure they are fairly equal. It really is surprising how fast the Lortone spins. I'll have to do a little research to see how to slow that one down a bit or let them both run and see the outcome/consequence speed has on things.
aDave, I have the Lortone 33a. I'll double check the RPMs tonight, but it seems to rotate at about 1.5 rotations to 1 of the HF unit. Maybe i'll take a quick comparison video to post up here later.
jamesp, Thanks for the info! I went through and read the thread linked by knave as well. I see that more speed equals more consequence to the gear and maybe some faster tumbling, but at a price. If the foam persists today, I'll start adding a bit of the dry sweep I have in the garage and hope that it finally helps my foam issue.
gatorflash1, I really appreciate the kind words! I'm pretty tenacious and a mechanic, so I enjoy the detail and trouble shooting of it all. I still need a win once in a while, but like/need to understand why something is happening (or not happening) and how to remedy it. This place and all of you make it easier not to set it all aside for a while and instead just push through the issues with some inkling of how to do it correctly. Thanks!
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Jan 27, 2020 11:59:36 GMT -5
Optimal may be different than what is supplied by a given manufacturer. I don't know the diameter of you HF barrel in relation to a Lortone three-pound barrel, but I seem to recall that a Lortone barrel of your size will normally turn around 45 RPMs or so. What Lortone do you have that runs at 62 RPMs? That is one of the highest, if not the highest, RPM numbers I've seen for a Lortone. Agreed, those number seem pretty high. Especially for the Lortone. My Lortone 3A three pound barrel turns at 6o RPM
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Post by aDave on Jan 27, 2020 14:04:00 GMT -5
Agreed, those number seem pretty high. Especially for the Lortone. My Lortone 3A three pound barrel turns at 6o RPM That's interesting - so much so that you made me look around a bit. In searching the Forum, it would appear that your speed on that model isn't really that unusual, and that would have to hold true for the OP's Lortone as well. I had no idea, so I guess I learned something today. The 33B looks to turn at a slower speed, and I'd have to think it's due to the weight of two barrels as opposed to one. That was apparently the numbers in the 40's that I recalled, as many of the 33B users posted about speeds in the mid to high 40's. Lastly, I gave Lortone a call to see if they could provide accurate numbers (range wise) for how fast the tumblers should be turning in ideal conditions. The person I spoke with was not much help, as she didn't know of any specific numbers. This gal is obviously not the same person I spoke to years ago, as I was able to get numbers for my rotaries (45C and QT66) back then.
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Jan 28, 2020 11:30:32 GMT -5
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Post by knave on Jan 28, 2020 11:36:37 GMT -5
Hahahahahha!
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Post by arghvark on Jan 28, 2020 12:01:00 GMT -5
In regard to one of your first comments: it's pretty hard to mess anything up. Don't worry. As time goes by you get used to it and your tumbling will become more efficient (faster). As mentioned by others, definitely looks like too much water. An inch or so below the surface of the rocks is a good starting point. Too much doesn't hurt anything, but will definitely decrease efficiency of grind, extending tumble time. Other have addressed the grit, definitely agree that 46/70 doesn't work as well as 60/90 or 80 in a 3lb barrel. It's really difficult to resist peeking. Just be very careful to clean that lip where the lid fits (and the lid) before buttoning back up. Any foreign material will do two things: prematurely wear the contact surface between lid and barrel, and allow for greater possibility of leaks. Leaks are Not Fun. If you can still see grit when you open it up, the tumble could have gone longer. A clean out at that point just wastes grit. I found that in 1st stage, run time on 3lb barrels is more like 2 weeks to exhaust the grit. Using a slurry thickener reduces this time. I use potter's clay (a bit less than a golf ball size) because I can get it for free, others use clay kitty litter, others use clay they dig. Any of these will greatly reduce tumble times. (BTW I too had foam when I started out. Less water reduces it, clay completely eliminates it.) You're off to a great start, and there are amazingly helpful people here to guide and mentor. Some of them are very scientific about it. Have fun!
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Post by RocksInNJ on Jan 28, 2020 19:08:49 GMT -5
My Lortone 3A three pound barrel turns at 6o RPM That's interesting - so much so that you made me look around a bit. In searching the Forum, it would appear that your speed on that model isn't really that unusual, and that would have to hold true for the OP's Lortone as well. I had no idea, so I guess I learned something today. The 33B looks to turn at a slower speed, and I'd have to think it's due to the weight of two barrels as opposed to one. That was apparently the numbers in the 40's that I recalled, as many of the 33B users posted about speeds in the mid to high 40's. Lastly, I gave Lortone a call to see if they could provide accurate numbers (range wise) for how fast the tumblers should be turning in ideal conditions. The person I spoke with was not much help, as she didn't know of any specific numbers. This gal is obviously not the same person I spoke to years ago, as I was able to get numbers for my rotaries (45C and QT66) back then. We both learned something. I didn’t consider that the smaller barrels may run faster. Even so, I would’ve never imagined that they ran at twice the speed of the larger barrels.
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stewdogg
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2020
Posts: 388
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Post by stewdogg on Jan 29, 2020 10:11:29 GMT -5
In regard to one of your first comments: it's pretty hard to mess anything up. Don't worry. As time goes by you get used to it and your tumbling will become more efficient (faster). As mentioned by others, definitely looks like too much water. An inch or so below the surface of the rocks is a good starting point. Too much doesn't hurt anything, but will definitely decrease efficiency of grind, extending tumble time. Other have addressed the grit, definitely agree that 46/70 doesn't work as well as 60/90 or 80 in a 3lb barrel. It's really difficult to resist peeking. Just be very careful to clean that lip where the lid fits (and the lid) before buttoning back up. Any foreign material will do two things: prematurely wear the contact surface between lid and barrel, and allow for greater possibility of leaks. Leaks are Not Fun. If you can still see grit when you open it up, the tumble could have gone longer. A clean out at that point just wastes grit. I found that in 1st stage, run time on 3lb barrels is more like 2 weeks to exhaust the grit. Using a slurry thickener reduces this time. I use potter's clay (a bit less than a golf ball size) because I can get it for free, others use clay kitty litter, others use clay they dig. Any of these will greatly reduce tumble times. (BTW I too had foam when I started out. Less water reduces it, clay completely eliminates it.) You're off to a great start, and there are amazingly helpful people here to guide and mentor. Some of them are very scientific about it. Have fun! Thanks for all the info and kind words! I guess I'll have to get a bigger barrel or slowly mix the 46/70 grit in with the 60/90 grit over time. I suppose the best advise is patience... this is a hobby of patience. I still can't stop peaking, just to see if there is still a ton of foam in the mix... Wooferhound - thank you for the supporting info on the Lortone and the math! aDave/jamesp - thanks for the in depth information! I went down last night to check on things... I just can't stop peaking, at least until I know things are working they way they should. The slower moving HF was in good shape. The barrel was still only 75% full and only a little bit of air in the mix. I threw a little bit of dry sweep in to thicken it up a bit more and back on the tumbler it went. The Lortone barrel was overflowing full with foam. I tired to dump some foam out, so I could get the cover back on and by the time I could get the cover back on I noticed that there wasn't any liquid in the mix anymore. I decided to dump it all out and start over. I was using tap water previously and switched to filtered water for this run. I also put in a tablespoon of dry sweep to start things out. I have much less water and a good fill level to the barrel. I will see how things turn out in the next couple of days. Either way, I'm having a blast learning all of this stuff and experimenting with it! Oh yeah, when I was at Benie's Rock shop this weekend, I noticed there was a Lapidary shop next to the rock shop. I think that I will eventually have to go over there and learn some more.
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Jan 29, 2020 12:37:46 GMT -5
Still sounds like too much water to me. In Stage 1 I'll fill the barrel with water to 1/4 the height of the rocks, it's hard to find the water when filled that way.
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jeannie63
off to a rocking start
Member since February 2019
Posts: 2
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Post by jeannie63 on Jan 29, 2020 13:43:15 GMT -5
If you are still getting foam, try some baking soda in the mix (works similar to Tums). Worked for me.
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stewdogg
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2020
Posts: 388
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Post by stewdogg on Jan 30, 2020 0:00:38 GMT -5
Thanks Wooferhound, I'm going to run it till Saturday and then check them. I will just plan to use your advice with using 1/4 water to rocks on my next run, especially if I still have the foam monster in my barrels. If you are still getting foam, try some baking soda in the mix (works similar to Tums). Worked for me. Thanks for the tip jeannie63! Also, hello fellow Wisconsinite! I'm from Madison...
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Post by knave on Jan 30, 2020 0:05:51 GMT -5
Wassup S-Dogg?
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stewdogg
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2020
Posts: 388
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Post by stewdogg on Jan 30, 2020 0:32:41 GMT -5
Haha, not too much, what's shakin? Just sitting in the basement listening to the rocks tumble.
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Post by knave on Jan 30, 2020 0:51:45 GMT -5
In another forum far far away they call me Ev-dogg
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Post by knave on Jan 30, 2020 0:54:33 GMT -5
I have to unplug the rotaries for night so the wee ones can sleep. Then they have to turn on white noise, go figure. The loto is quiet and still. Working on shaping a new batch.
Absolutely love that Lortone Combi saw. If you can find a rock rascal or something for sale near you, grab it up, you won’t be sorry.
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Post by 1dave on Jan 30, 2020 3:14:58 GMT -5
Hello all, I recently received a Harbor Freight double 3lb tumbler for my birthday. I did a bunch of research and got my supplies together to start my first tumble. I only started out with filling one of the 3lb buckets, to make sure I didn't screw up two buckets on my first run.
I filled the bucket about 2/3 to 3/4 full with rock, added my rough grit and filled with water just below the surface of the rocks. I set the tumbler in motion and it's turning and sloshing around... I'm happy. Questions: Should I take the water and grit out of the bucket or can I leave it in there until I get my new tumbler or parts for the HF one?
Depends on the slurry. It can set up like concrete! Got a hammer and chisel?
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stewdogg
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2020
Posts: 388
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Post by stewdogg on Jan 30, 2020 9:46:02 GMT -5
In another forum far far away they call me Ev-dogg Now I'm curious what forum and what the Ev and dogg stand for? I have some ideas, but nothing solid. I have the same name on a couple other forums far far away.
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