ironpinecone
off to a rocking start
Member since May 2020
Posts: 7
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Post by ironpinecone on May 14, 2020 21:45:29 GMT -5
Hi Everyone; I'm a complete beginner using a vibratory flat lap. I was trying to smooth out some saw marks on my first try and the problem I have is that the grit/slurry seems to be embedded in small fractures in the rocks after the trial run. I think I may have ruined most of these rocks because the black slurry/grit seems pretty deeply embedded. Almost all the rocks I find that I'd want to polish are going to have some slight fractures. This seems to be an excellent way to fill those fractures with grit. Is there a way to avoid this? I've only done the 1st grind while I try and figure it out and work on cleaning them by hand.
They're sitting in a bucket of water now while I brainstorm what my next move could be.
Could I run them with some kind of soap for a bit to try and clean out the slurry/grit?
I'm scrubbing with brushes and don't seem to be making progress.
Thank you for any insight. I'm not sure what search terms to use to try and see if it's already been asked.
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Post by rmf on May 15, 2020 3:01:36 GMT -5
ironpinecone cracks are always a problem. Also vugs. I have filled cracks with CA glue before grinding and then you grind it down. For vugs I have filled them with paraffin. When done grinding put in boiling water and it melts out. Cleaning I use an ultrasonic cleaner, also for small cracks tooth brush with hot soapy water then while wet freeze. The ice will sometimes pull the grit out (like hoar frost on the ground). This method may take a couple of times. Then there is the car wash they have high water pressure sprayer.
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Post by HankRocks on May 15, 2020 7:25:46 GMT -5
Hi Everyone; I'm a complete beginner using a vibratory flat lap. I was trying to smooth out some saw marks on my first try and the problem I have is that the grit/slurry seems to be embedded in small fractures in the rocks after the trial run. I think I may have ruined most of these rocks because the black slurry/grit seems pretty deeply embedded. Almost all the rocks I find that I'd want to polish are going to have some slight fractures. This seems to be an excellent way to fill those fractures with grit. Is there a way to avoid this? I've only done the 1st grind while I try and figure it out and work on cleaning them by hand.
They're sitting in a bucket of water now while I brainstorm what my next move could be.
Could I run them with some kind of soap for a bit to try and clean out the slurry/grit?
I'm scrubbing with brushes and don't seem to be making progress.
Thank you for any insight. I'm not sure what search terms to use to try and see if it's already been asked.
I have been polishing rocks on the Vib-Lap(20 inch) for 3 or 4 years now. The only time embedded grit becomes a problem is in the Polish stage. If a bit of SiC grit get's in Polish Pan(with pad), it will begin to make marks. I suspect that it needs to be 220 and above, 600 SiC should not be to big an issue. Slurry should also not be an issue. My washing between stages consists of a Garden Hose with one of the nozzles with the setting at "Jet". Spray good into the bucket around the rocks and then each rock separately and into any cavities on the surface to be polished. Any Hollow geodes get extra attention. The only time I use a brush is after the Polish stage to remove any residual slurry stains. I was having a lot of issue removing AlO polish slurry stains from rocks, real pain and lots of work. When I switched to Tin Oxide Polish the problem went away as it's slurry comes off a lot easier. Just curious to see what type of rocks you are attempting to polish. There are some that because of porousness or fractures will not do well on the Vib Lap.
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herb
spending too much on rocks
Member since November 2011
Posts: 444
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Post by herb on May 15, 2020 9:11:04 GMT -5
I've never had any issues with grit embedding in hairline cracks, but in larger cracks it occasionally happens. I ended up buying textile spot cleaning gun which works great for cracks and is terrific for cleaning out bugs and cavities in thundereggs and geodes. The gun is basically a miniature pressure washer. Watch your fingers when using one though! After each stage, I scrub the face and outside of my thundereggs with a toothbrush under running water and then any that have cracks or crystal pockets get a blast with the textile gun.
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ironpinecone
off to a rocking start
Member since May 2020
Posts: 7
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Post by ironpinecone on May 15, 2020 14:44:42 GMT -5
I think it might be too deep to brush out. I have a water pic but that doesn't seem to put a dent in it. I'm going to try and upload some photos (this is sort of a test here so hope it works out). I think I let the grit get too dry at one point and that might have caused a lot of the problem.
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Post by HankRocks on May 15, 2020 15:14:13 GMT -5
ironpinecone I would say that if neither brushing nor the Waterpik remove any grit, then there is either none to remove and the discoloration is from the slurry in the pan. Is this after the 1st (coarse) stage? If so I would go ahead and run the subsequent SiC stages. How many stages are you planning on running and what is the grit size of each. And how much grit are you using for each stage? And how long are you running before cleanout? Sorry for the all the questions, just trying to determine your process. Henry
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ironpinecone
off to a rocking start
Member since May 2020
Posts: 7
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Post by ironpinecone on May 15, 2020 17:16:43 GMT -5
Henry; you're right about it being the slurry. It is after the 1st course. I probably will go ahead and run the next stage and see what happens. I don't know the grit size; I got it a long time ago and the fella just put "coarse" grit in one container, "fine" in another and "polish" in another. He's not in business now. I've had the stuff kicking around for years but finally decided to break it out and try it now that I've got some extra time to play with.
I started out with 1/3 cup water and 2.5 tspns grit. But; I had rocks that were cut on two sides. Not thin slabs. So I flipped them over after about 18 hours and added more water and a tiny bit more grit occasionally. then they ran for another 15 or so hours.
In retrospect this probably was a little too long for the first grind?
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ironpinecone
off to a rocking start
Member since May 2020
Posts: 7
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Post by ironpinecone on May 15, 2020 17:45:06 GMT -5
Here's another from that batch. It has a tiny window into a crystal pocket in the center which filled with slurry. I may have let the slurry get too dry at some points; I'm amazed at how fast it can dry out. That might have made it thicker and harder to remove. Those are pretty much guesses though. I think I will end up having to recut this rock, and probably others.
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Post by HankRocks on May 15, 2020 18:34:54 GMT -5
Henry; you're right about it being the slurry. It is after the 1st course. I probably will go ahead and run the next stage and see what happens. I don't know the grit size; I got it a long time ago and the fella just put "coarse" grit in one container, "fine" in another and "polish" in another. He's not in business now. I've had the stuff kicking around for years but finally decided to break it out and try it now that I've got some extra time to play with. I started out with 1/3 cup water and 2.5 tspns grit. But; I had rocks that were cut on two sides. Not thin slabs. So I flipped them over after about 18 hours and added more water and a tiny bit more grit occasionally. then they ran for another 15 or so hours. In retrospect this probably was a little too long for the first grind? I run coarse for about 15 to 16 hours. Start with 3 Tbls of grit (80 SiC in the 20 inch pan). After about 6 hours or so I add another Tbls or so then let it run for at least 6 to 8 hours until the grit is well broken down. You can tell it's broken down by the feel when moving the rock by hand in the pan or by looking at the slurry to see any large grit left. As the grit breaks down it is getting the surface ready for the next stage. After cleaning the rocks well I lay them out and let them dry and then examine closely to see if all the saw marks have been removed. Usually holding them up at an angle to a light source will show up any marks. If they have saw marks it's back into another coarse run. Sometimes it takes 3, 4 or more coarse runs to remove all the saw marks. After that , it's 220 SiC and 600 SiC, each about 12 to 14 hours. Then replace the SiC pan with the Pad lined Polish Pan and run for maybe 30 to 40 hours. This 13 inch by 10 inch piece of Palm Wood took about 6 or 7 coarse runs to get it ready for the 2nd stage as the saw marks were deep; DSC_0439 by Findrocks, on Flickr I would wager that the Polish you were supplied is not very good. I could be wrong and only one way to find out. One tip - the heavier the rock the quicker the grind and the quicker the polish. I use lead weights added to some rocks that need the extra weight another tip - a well balanced rock will grind evenly and polish evenly. An off balance rock will not work too good on the Lap. Let us know how it goes.
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ironpinecone
off to a rocking start
Member since May 2020
Posts: 7
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Post by ironpinecone on May 15, 2020 20:13:25 GMT -5
Thanks for that info. Your palm wood has some fracture and it looks like you didn't have a problem there. I do wonder what the results would have been if I had kept my slurry wetter and thinner. I let it get too thick and muddy. Well, I'll clean em up some more and then try again with the next stage.
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Post by pauls on May 15, 2020 21:29:19 GMT -5
Lately I have had the vibe lap running a lot, I hose off with the garden hose then use my water pic to get the rest out. Maybe letting it dry has caused the sludge to have a chemical reaction of some sort and set chemically. My lap plate is cast iron and I had the slurry set on rocks one time and the tiny amount of iron in the slurry set it to ferrocrete. I soaked it in Oxalic, that cleaned them up. I found a soak in oxalic is a great help to clean all of them up anyway, so now they all get a soak overnight to get random iron stains off.
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Post by HankRocks on May 16, 2020 2:14:00 GMT -5
Thanks for that info. Your palm wood has some fracture and it looks like you didn't have a problem there. I do wonder what the results would have been if I had kept my slurry wetter and thinner. I let it get too thick and muddy. Well, I'll clean em up some more and then try again with the next stage. Almost always let the slurry stay wet, adding water as needed keeping the depth of the slurry maybe 1/8 to 1/4 inch. Any deeper than that and the splashing will make a big mess.definitely do not let the pan dry out. The big rock was only cleaned with the Hose Nozzle and no issues. The fractures you see were very tight, almost healed fractures so no grit had a chance to infiltrate. Of coarse I follow the same rinse with the hose when tumbling. The only extra care I take in that process is a soap run between the last SiC stage and the first AlO stage. I would not try a soap run in the Pan, that would most likely become a soapy mess!!
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herb
spending too much on rocks
Member since November 2011
Posts: 444
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Post by herb on May 16, 2020 11:41:03 GMT -5
Here's another from that batch. It has a tiny window into a crystal pocket in the center which filled with slurry. I may have let the slurry get too dry at some points; I'm amazed at how fast it can dry out. That might have made it thicker and harder to remove. Those are pretty much guesses though. I think I will end up having to recut this rock, and probably others. Before you go thru the trouble of recutting things, you might want to get a spot cleaning gun like I mentioned in my previous reply. The grit stuck in the crystal pocket is exactly what drove me to buy one and it works great for cleaning out pockets. It gets in nooks and crannies that no amount of brushing would ever touch. Should also clean up the darkness in the cracks you showed in your other pic. I think I paid about $35 for mine on ebay.
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herb
spending too much on rocks
Member since November 2011
Posts: 444
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Post by herb on May 16, 2020 11:55:40 GMT -5
@hankrocks mentioned the method he uses to see if a rock is ready to move on to the next stage (looks at the rock at an angle to look for saw marks)
What I've found works well is to stop the lap and then scribble over the face of each rock with a pencil. I generally make a crosshatch pattern over the whole face. You dont need to rinse off the rocks before hand, just scribble on each. Then run the lap for about 3 to 5 more minutes. When you wash off the rocks, any pencil marks that are still visible show you what areas need more work. Works well for all grit stages. I've never tried it for the polish stage. For that I hold the rock under an Ott-Lite and if I can clearly read the writing on the bulb across the whole surface, the rock is done.
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ironpinecone
off to a rocking start
Member since May 2020
Posts: 7
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Post by ironpinecone on May 16, 2020 13:59:17 GMT -5
Here's another from that batch. It has a tiny window into a crystal pocket in the center which filled with slurry. I may have let the slurry get too dry at some points; I'm amazed at how fast it can dry out. That might have made it thicker and harder to remove. Those are pretty much guesses though. Before you go thru the trouble of recutting things, you might want to get a spot cleaning gun like I mentioned in my previous reply. The grit stuck in the crystal pocket is exactly what drove me to buy one and it works great for cleaning out pockets. It gets in nooks and crannies that no amount of brushing would ever touch. Should also clean up the darkness in the cracks you showed in your other pic. I think I paid about $35 for mine on ebay. I've heard of these but didn't want to spring for a new one. I'd forgot about Ebay. $35 isn't bad. The local rock club might even have one but I don't think they are meeting for the indefinite future.
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Post by pauls on May 17, 2020 16:52:18 GMT -5
Spot cleaning gun, It's one of those tools you wonder how you ever did without it, at least for me. I bought one to get spots of ancient dried up blue tac off a brick wall, wow fantastic result with orange oil in it. Then decided to have a go at rocks, what a difference, rocks that were previously scrubbed within an inch of my life were splattering dirt and dried up polish all over me with just straight water. I tried using soapy water but the froth makes it hard to see what is happening.
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ironpinecone
off to a rocking start
Member since May 2020
Posts: 7
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Post by ironpinecone on May 26, 2020 14:30:08 GMT -5
ironpinecone cracks are always a problem. Also vugs. I have filled cracks with CA glue before grinding and then you grind it down. For vugs I have filled them with paraffin. When done grinding put in boiling water and it melts out. Cleaning I use an ultrasonic cleaner, also for small cracks tooth brush with hot soapy water then while wet freeze. The ice will sometimes pull the grit out (like hoar frost on the ground). This method may take a couple of times. Then there is the car wash they have high water pressure sprayer. Thanks for these suggestions. I may try both the paraffin and the CA glue. With the paraffin, you just melt a little bit into the vugs that you want to protect I imagine? And with the CA try to seal hairline fractures and grind down the excess? Does the CA get in fractures and yellow with age, or stay clear?
I'm still in the process of cleaning up from my first grind and I'm trying to think hard about how to approach the second.
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Post by rmf on May 27, 2020 7:41:00 GMT -5
For laping Geodes I just poured paraffin in the center hole. It shrinks in the center when cool so it worked well. The CA I have used on cracks have been colored stones like petrified wood so you might not see yellowing. BTW I use water thin CA from paleobond.com/ but there are probably others out there selling the same thing. the biggest advantage I have found in sealing the cracks is it prevents chipping along the edges of the cracks during coarse grinding. Once you get past the coarse chipping is not such a problem. I am thinking that CA is not suppose to yellow.
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