osuguy0301
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since December 2015
Posts: 203
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Post by osuguy0301 on Oct 11, 2021 19:54:17 GMT -5
I can honestly say, i have never had a batch of rocks in coarse grit for just 1 week. It is a minimum of a month in coarse grit if you are doing quartz, jasper or agates. Check every week, cull bad rocks, set aside ones that are ready, fill barrel back up...rinse and repeat for weeks. The directions that come with some tumblers are just way off base. Way too many tell you 1 week for each stage and thats just not correct.
Good news is, rocks are never really ruined. Just start back over at coarse grit.
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Post by Bob on Oct 12, 2021 10:21:19 GMT -5
...have never had a batch of rocks in coarse grit for just 1 week. It is a minimum of a month in coarse grit if you are doing quartz, jasper or agates... Got me thinking if I would agree 100% with that? Pretty much so 99+%. The only exceptions being some lucky beach rocks that were pre-tumbled a few thousand years I would guess and got to go to 220 after only a week or two in coarse. OSU Ohio State, man that throws me. I'm a few blocks away and an alumnus of OSU Oklahoma State. I have a friend in Eugene, OR a few blocks away from OSU there. Three OSUs is enough--not that I know if there are only three.
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heathervee
having dreams about rocks
Member since August 2021
Posts: 57
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Post by heathervee on Oct 12, 2021 20:37:07 GMT -5
Again, I want to thank everyone for their feedback. And I apologize in advance for what may turn into a rant... I now know I may need to tumble stage 1 for a month, maybe more. HOWEVER, in my defense - every booklet, instruction manual, and website I consulted said "7-10 days" for the course stage. As a new tumbler, how are you supposed to know better? Even the videos I've been watching are VERY vague - the poster will check the rocks multiple times during stage 1, BUT WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING FOR? ?? For a hobby with a relatively low barrier to entry, why is there such a lack of simple, concise and accurate information?
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osuguy0301
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since December 2015
Posts: 203
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Post by osuguy0301 on Oct 13, 2021 9:18:28 GMT -5
Again, I want to thank everyone for their feedback. And I apologize in advance for what may turn into a rant... I now know I may need to tumble stage 1 for a month, maybe more. HOWEVER, in my defense - every booklet, instruction manual, and website I consulted said "7-10 days" for the course stage. As a new tumbler, how are you supposed to know better? Even the videos I've been watching are VERY vague - the poster will check the rocks multiple times during stage 1, BUT WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING FOR? ?? For a hobby with a relatively low barrier to entry, why is there such a lack of simple, concise and accurate information? Honestly, I don't know why most instructions for tumblers tell you a week for each stage. Like Bob said, unless you find some beach/river rocks that are already shaped by nature, its gonna be more than a week. Often the measurements are off on the amount of grit to use also. When I clean out and check during the coarse stage (every 7 days), I am looking to see if the rocks are shaped how I like. I also look for whether any voids or cracks have opened up. If I get voids or cracks, I pull them and then will either use a chisel or cut them to see if they can be salvaged. Everyone is a little different about when their rocks are shaped to their liking. Some like a more natural look with slight rounding, some like them really rounded, and some are perfectionists. Just depends on what is to your liking. Get used to the idea that the whole barrel will not be done at the same time and it may only be a rock or 2 if you are using a 3 lb. barrel. You will pull rocks every week until you have enough to go to stage 2. I have 2 buckets, 1 for rocks that still need time in coarse, 1 for rocks that are ready to move to the next stage. Michigan Rocks on Youtube has a really good beginners guide for rock tumbling. He goes through each step, tells you what to look for, why he moves rocks on to the next stage and why rocks need more time in stage 1, etc. His Youtube page has a lot of good videos.
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Post by Rockindad on Oct 13, 2021 11:27:46 GMT -5
Again, I want to thank everyone for their feedback. And I apologize in advance for what may turn into a rant... I now know I may need to tumble stage 1 for a month, maybe more. HOWEVER, in my defense - every booklet, instruction manual, and website I consulted said "7-10 days" for the course stage. As a new tumbler, how are you supposed to know better? Even the videos I've been watching are VERY vague - the poster will check the rocks multiple times during stage 1, BUT WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING FOR? ?? For a hobby with a relatively low barrier to entry, why is there such a lack of simple, concise and accurate information? Honestly, I don't know why most instructions for tumblers tell you a week for each stage. Like Bob said, unless you find some beach/river rocks that are already shaped by nature, its gonna be more than a week. Often the measurements are off on the amount of grit to use also. When I clean out and check during the coarse stage (every 7 days), I am looking to see if the rocks are shaped how I like. I also look for whether any voids or cracks have opened up. If I get voids or cracks, I pull them and then will either use a chisel or cut them to see if they can be salvaged. Everyone is a little different about when their rocks are shaped to their liking. Some like a more natural look with slight rounding, some like them really rounded, and some are perfectionists. Just depends on what is to your liking. Get used to the idea that the whole barrel will not be done at the same time and it may only be a rock or 2 if you are using a 3 lb. barrel. You will pull rocks every week until you have enough to go to stage 2. I have 2 buckets, 1 for rocks that still need time in coarse, 1 for rocks that are ready to move to the next stage. Michigan Rocks on Youtube has a really good beginners guide for rock tumbling. He goes through each step, tells you what to look for, why he moves rocks on to the next stage and why rocks need more time in stage 1, etc. His Youtube page has a lot of good videos. Actually I think it is really easy to understand why so many manufacturers instructions have overly optimistic time schedules. How many people do you think would not even give the hobby a chance if they read: "Your first stage will typically take 2-3 months with weekly cleanouts.............."? heathervee I'm not sure what websites or videos you have been going to for information but this forum is going to be hard to beat. Lots of good info here!
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waterboysh
spending too much on rocks
Member since April 2021
Posts: 369
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Post by waterboysh on Oct 13, 2021 11:53:28 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't know why most instructions for tumblers tell you a week for each stage. I'm still pretty new to tumbling still (it takes so long, at what point do you stop being a noob?) and this was something that really perplexed me when I was starting out. Luckily for me, I ran across the Michigan Rocks Youtube channel before I started and knew better. I think it's because people get excited about their new purchase and don't want to be told that it might be 3+ months before you see your first shiny rock. Personally I don't run any of my stages shorter than 2 weeks. Polish runs for 3 - 4 weeks. This might be overkill (I don't have the experimental knowledge to know) but it works well for me and ensures I always have enough rocks to start in 220 coming out of course every 2 weeks. If I did anything faster I'd have time periods where I wouldn't have enough rocks to fill a barrel and then it'd mess up my cadence. So any given rock might be in the course stage for 3 - 12 weeks, medium for 2 (but gets recharged after 1. This is the only stage I do that with), pre-polish for 2, then polish for 4. So we're talking 10 - 20 weeks. But, that's only for the first batch, and that sounds about right. We started in early and got our first batch of shiny rocks exactly on my son's 4th birthday on May 23rd. But I was only doing stages 2 - 4 for 1 week at that point. But it was only that first batch that required several months wait. As long as I keep feeding the QT6 new rocks, I'll be moving something to the next stage every 2 weeks and have polished rocks every 4. This also requires running several barrels simultaneously. I feel like this hobby has a high upfront cost, but not a high maintenance cost (at least when you spread the cost of rocks, grit, media, etc over the length of time you're tumbling it). I've got a QT6 for course, a 33a for polish, and a 33b for everything in between. Now I just sorta feel like I'm rambling some so I'll stop.
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osuguy0301
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since December 2015
Posts: 203
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Post by osuguy0301 on Oct 13, 2021 12:18:13 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't know why most instructions for tumblers tell you a week for each stage. Like Bob said, unless you find some beach/river rocks that are already shaped by nature, its gonna be more than a week. Often the measurements are off on the amount of grit to use also. When I clean out and check during the coarse stage (every 7 days), I am looking to see if the rocks are shaped how I like. I also look for whether any voids or cracks have opened up. If I get voids or cracks, I pull them and then will either use a chisel or cut them to see if they can be salvaged. Everyone is a little different about when their rocks are shaped to their liking. Some like a more natural look with slight rounding, some like them really rounded, and some are perfectionists. Just depends on what is to your liking. Get used to the idea that the whole barrel will not be done at the same time and it may only be a rock or 2 if you are using a 3 lb. barrel. You will pull rocks every week until you have enough to go to stage 2. I have 2 buckets, 1 for rocks that still need time in coarse, 1 for rocks that are ready to move to the next stage. Michigan Rocks on Youtube has a really good beginners guide for rock tumbling. He goes through each step, tells you what to look for, why he moves rocks on to the next stage and why rocks need more time in stage 1, etc. His Youtube page has a lot of good videos. Actually I think it is really easy to understand why so many manufacturers instructions have overly optimistic time schedules. How many people do you think would not even give the hobby a chance if they read: "Your first stage will typically take 2-3 months with weekly cleanouts.............."? heathervee I'm not sure what websites or videos you have been going to for information but this forum is going to be hard to beat. Lots of good info here! That's the real rub isn't it. Would you rather have correct directions and know what you are getting in to, or optimistic directions and disappointment in the final product. Imagine if directions for cooking food was this way.
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Post by Rockindad on Oct 13, 2021 12:25:38 GMT -5
Actually I think it is really easy to understand why so many manufacturers instructions have overly optimistic time schedules. How many people do you think would not even give the hobby a chance if they read: "Your first stage will typically take 2-3 months with weekly cleanouts.............."? heathervee I'm not sure what websites or videos you have been going to for information but this forum is going to be hard to beat. Lots of good info here! That's the real rub isn't it. Would you rather have correct directions and know what you are getting in to, or optimistic directions and disappointment in the final product. Imagine if directions for cooking food was this way. Yep, there may be a bit of bait and switch. Though in our case I have to blame this forum a bit. Our very first batch was made up of four one week cycles. We were pretty pleased with the results. The rocks were definitely smoother and shinier than they were before. Then we had to go looking for info and found this place with all of its pictures and we really saw what was possible...............been a quest ever since.
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heathervee
having dreams about rocks
Member since August 2021
Posts: 57
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Post by heathervee on Oct 13, 2021 17:07:14 GMT -5
That's the real rub isn't it. Would you rather have correct directions and know what you are getting in to, or optimistic directions and disappointment in the final product. Imagine if directions for cooking food was this way. Yep, there may be a bit of bait and switch. Though in our case I have to blame this forum a bit. Our very first batch was made up of four one week cycles. We were pretty pleased with the results. The rocks were definitely smoother and shinier than they were before. Then we had to go looking for info and found this place with all of its pictures and we really saw what was possible...............been a quest ever since. I wonder if it's the "bad penny" phenomenon. I'd venture to say that most budget, kid-centric, entry level tumblers are made by the same manufacturer. Maybe someone over at XYZ Imports wrote bad instructions once and they keep recycling the inaccurate info. Or maybe a translation error at some point in the process? And if you don't think people are willing to stick to boring, long-process hobbies with hit-or-miss results, you must have missed the pandemic sourdough starter trend!
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Post by Rockindad on Oct 13, 2021 17:41:50 GMT -5
Yep, there may be a bit of bait and switch. Though in our case I have to blame this forum a bit. Our very first batch was made up of four one week cycles. We were pretty pleased with the results. The rocks were definitely smoother and shinier than they were before. Then we had to go looking for info and found this place with all of its pictures and we really saw what was possible...............been a quest ever since. I wonder if it's the "bad penny" phenomenon. I'd venture to say that most budget, kid-centric, entry level tumblers are made by the same manufacturer. Maybe someone over at XYZ Imports wrote bad instructions once and they keep recycling the inaccurate info. Or maybe a translation error at some point in the process? And if you don't think people are willing to stick to boring, long-process hobbies with hit-or-miss results, you must have missed the pandemic sourdough starter trend! The instructions that come with the "name brand" tumblers are not much better. Yep, definitely missed out on the sourdough starter trend. By and large we have become an instant gratification society, to the point that if our product that we ordered today is not delivered within 48 hours or less we are outraged. To get nice results tumbling one has to get away from that mindset, except if you are waiting on rocks!
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lparsons
Cave Dweller
Member since April 2020
Posts: 276
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Post by lparsons on Oct 13, 2021 22:50:41 GMT -5
heathervee, I can truly relate to your “true ADD fashion!” 🤣 I constantly have a 12 lb. rotary tumbler rolling as well as a vibe tumbler. I also have a bunch of rocks lying around. I’m about to purchase a saw so I can shape rocks before tumbling and slice some extra nice rocks into slabs. Good luck with your tumbling!
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Prov
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2020
Posts: 116
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Post by Prov on Oct 15, 2021 21:24:02 GMT -5
Again, I want to thank everyone for their feedback. And I apologize in advance for what may turn into a rant... I now know I may need to tumble stage 1 for a month, maybe more. HOWEVER, in my defense - every booklet, instruction manual, and website I consulted said "7-10 days" for the course stage. As a new tumbler, how are you supposed to know better? Even the videos I've been watching are VERY vague - the poster will check the rocks multiple times during stage 1, BUT WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING FOR? ?? For a hobby with a relatively low barrier to entry, why is there such a lack of simple, concise and accurate information? I really feel for you here, because I went through the same stuff. My local rock shop handed me a Kingsley north guideline sheet, that recommended more grit than necessary, and less time than necessary. Hang out here, learn from the pros. You'll pick it up, and then you too will be turning out great looking rocks.
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Post by Mel on Oct 16, 2021 21:29:19 GMT -5
Nat Geo has been quoted by many to be garbage. Their "polish" is around a 1200 grit, and not going to get great polish results with that. You want something around 0.5-1 microns, or roughly 12,000 grit size. I tumbled a load with 1200 aluminum oxide just to prove a point, and it was great for pre-polish, but it didn't shine a single stone.
I find as long as I get them perfectly smooth in stage one (however long that may be, sometimes a few months for certain rocks), I can usually go 7-10 days on the rest, and 3-4 on polish. I also burnish for up to 24 hours after every stage (unless repeating stage 1) because it DOES make a difference. I have never seen any benefit to crazy long polish cycles (my longest cycle was a week). If I want a really good polish fast, I throw them in the vibratory for 48 hours, otherwise it's 3-4 days in the rotary with 4-6 tablespoons of polish per 3 pounds of barrel, and a 1/2" cube of Ivory soap. Never failed me yet.
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Post by Bob on Oct 18, 2021 11:40:10 GMT -5
- every booklet, instruction manual, and website I consulted said "7-10 days" for the course stage. As a new tumbler, how are you supposed to know better? Even the videos I've been watching are VERY vague - the poster will check the rocks multiple times during stage 1, BUT WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING FOR? ?? For a hobby with a relatively low barrier to entry, why is there such a lack of simple, concise and accurate information? I felt for you when I read that. Since I had not read any of those things since 2014, I wondered if you misinterpreted or if the literature was really so misleading. I don't have that Modern Tumbling book any more to check that. I just checked the Lortone manual, and sure enough see how you could conclude that because it lacks sufficient information for sure. I just checked the Covington manual and notice this part: "GRINDING TIME
A round barrel running at proper speed and carefully checked will rough grind a load of selected beach agate in 100 hours, fine grind in 100 hours, polish in 50 hours and detergent run in 12 hours. The same material in a hexagonal tumbler will require about 50% more time.
Hammer broken hard materials such as India Bloodstone or Montana Dendritic Agate in round barrels may require 3 or 4 rough grindings of 5 days each, with fine grind of 4 days, polish of 3 days.
Grinding time in rough grit varies and is difficult to specify. Keeping a log of your findings is very important. Set up a chart to show the type of stones, abrasive used, slurry consistency, how long it took for each step, and any other pertinent data.
The objective is to grind out the pits, surface fractures, rough spots, preparatory to finishing the surface by finer grinding. Do not expect every stone to be perfect. Use judgment about when to quit. Continuation of the grind after 75% is done is poor economy. Keep in mind the stones will not change much from rough grind to finish. Only minor blemishes will be removed and no amount of fine grind or polish will cure a defect.
Let the stones dry for a final test. When you examine them, look at each stone. Turn it over under good light. If 20 or 30 are rough grind completed, take the 20 and proceed with a finer grit grind."Although there is a lot of good info there, it too is crazy misleading in my opinion about getting beach agate polished in a total of less than 300 hours. Heck--that's only 13 days--less than 2 weeks. No freakin' way unless those babies were prerounded so well on the beach that you could start in 220 and I would even not be able to be done so soon then. The statement above that I just underlined is truthfully vague and in that way accurate. Am I the only person that sees individual rocks so long that they get to know them--or hate them? I've had rocks in my barrels for over a year many times. "Oh, there's that #$@! piece of jasper again! My God, that fracture/dent/concavity that I thought would be ground out last Christmas is STILL THERE!!!!" Right now I've got a lot of chert in process and a rough estimate is 6 month minimum start to finish. That's almost 2,000 hours! Now, admittedly going for perfection takes longer and I may tumble longer than almost anyone else especially since many of my rocks are minimum lemon size when I start. So I guess you are right and I can understand your frustration. The thought has crossed my mind that after doing this a few more years, I might write something that goes into just how long this really takes. What to call it? Hmmm..."Rock Tumbling to Perfection: Insanity and Frustration" "Rock Tumbling to Perfection--Save Yourself and Just do Hard Drugs Instead" or "Rock Tumblers Who Go for Perfection and the Psychiatrists Who Love Them".
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Post by HankRocks on Oct 18, 2021 12:38:41 GMT -5
On the other hand and as a wise man once said, "Perfect is the enemy of Good"
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Post by Bob on Oct 18, 2021 14:14:53 GMT -5
On the other hand and as a wise man once said, "Perfect is the enemy of Good" In 1983, I got a real estate license. Not to use it, but just to find out how much knowledge real estate agents had to have to get their license. Late into the process, found out had to "sponsored" by a real estate broker to complete the process and be able to say I truly had ever got my license. One sort of took me under his wing to teach me the ins and outs for 6 months because I gave him that commitment--though part-time--in return for his sponsorship. He got all upset when me or any other agent failed to properly move the little daily timeline buttons on this board he designed to show the time we planned on entering the office and when leaving. It was ridiculously tedious and unnecessary. But the worst was one day in the Courthouse when he was teaching me how to retrieve and understand property records and legal descriptions. At one point he was gone for a few minutes and I could hear him making some frustrating comments. I found him at the end of the room, sharpening his pencil in a wall sharpener, over and over to get it just right and it never would get just right so he had kept at it over and over. I stood there is disbelief at how much time was being wasted on getting that point perfect. I asked if we could just do what we needed to do w/o the pencil. He said no way, if there isn't time to do something perfectly then it isn't worth doing at all. At the time I had been overdosing on self-motivation books and tapes, how to start a business and all, and knew that type of attitude could be professional suicide. After maybe 10-12 minutes, I lost it, turned around and left while he was still at that sharpener. Yes, in 1983 he could easily have used a mechanical pencil but he had his quirks. Later that day, I told a confidant back at the agency office about this and that I predicted his agency would fail in less than a year due to his habits of not concentrating on the most important things to be done, and I packed up my things and left never to return. She called me about 10 months later and mentioned it had failed and he was closing shop. I didn't ask why. I found out shortly after that, he had been a professor of civil engineering at a local university before retiring and starting this real estate agency and was known for his tedious habits of perfection. I think of this episode in my life every time this topic comes up in the way that you triggered and I agree with you 100%. I come from a family of engineers and was an ME major in college before changing to biology, so I have some of that in my DNA too.
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Post by Son Of Beach on Oct 18, 2021 14:16:38 GMT -5
While I'm not to the point of keeping written logs, I am keeping mental tabs on a lot of my rocks I'm tumbling about 30-50 a week, seeing if improvements are being made or if the same faults are happening over and over. Eventually you have to just call it as good as it gets, but some are worth that 2-3 extra weeks in my opinion. I'm on week two of my first 12lb tumbler and I can already tell those bigger rocks are just going to take longer, but the payoff will be worth the wait. There is always more to learn about tumbling but you won't know until you get into it. Not every batch will be exactly the same, close but not exact.
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Post by Bob on Oct 18, 2021 15:32:03 GMT -5
Agreed.
It pains me to remember all the rocks I would pick up in river gravel bars and say to myself "So what if it has a 90% deep inside corner? Grit is an abrasive and it will win in the end no matter what."
Well, that may be true, but turning a very bent rock the size of a lemon into a smooth rock the size of a grape in a year isn't exactly efficient. Given all the grit it took, I must have $paid$ dearly for that idiocy. I used to never see a rock I didn't like laying out there. Now, I can visualize what it's going to take, and that just comes with the experience you are building now. There are times I will toss 90% of the rocks back on the ground and walk on.
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heathervee
having dreams about rocks
Member since August 2021
Posts: 57
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Post by heathervee on Oct 20, 2021 12:46:30 GMT -5
That's the real rub isn't it. Would you rather have correct directions and know what you are getting in to, or optimistic directions and disappointment in the final product. Imagine if directions for cooking food was this way. Yep, there may be a bit of bait and switch. Though in our case I have to blame this forum a bit. Our very first batch was made up of four one week cycles. We were pretty pleased with the results. The rocks were definitely smoother and shinier than they were before. Then we had to go looking for info and found this place with all of its pictures and we really saw what was possible...............been a quest ever since. Same!!! I thought my rocks looked OK until I saw the results people who knew what they where doing where getting!
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heathervee
having dreams about rocks
Member since August 2021
Posts: 57
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Post by heathervee on Oct 20, 2021 12:57:19 GMT -5
Nat Geo has been quoted by many to be garbage. Their "polish" is around a 1200 grit, and not going to get great polish results with that. You want something around 0.5-1 microns, or roughly 12,000 grit size. I tumbled a load with 1200 aluminum oxide just to prove a point, and it was great for pre-polish, but it didn't shine a single stone. I find as long as I get them perfectly smooth in stage one (however long that may be, sometimes a few months for certain rocks), I can usually go 7-10 days on the rest, and 3-4 on polish. I also burnish for up to 24 hours after every stage (unless repeating stage 1) because it DOES make a difference. I have never seen any benefit to crazy long polish cycles (my longest cycle was a week). If I want a really good polish fast, I throw them in the vibratory for 48 hours, otherwise it's 3-4 days in the rotary with 4-6 tablespoons of polish per 3 pounds of barrel, and a 1/2" cube of Ivory soap. Never failed me yet. "You want something around 0.5-1 microns, or roughly 12,000 grit size. I tumbled a load with 1200 aluminum oxide just to prove a point, and it was great for pre-polish, but it didn't shine a single stone." - see, this RIGHT HERE is what I'm talking about. Every grit kit I've seen on the market is 4 stages, with aluminum oxide as the final stage. (except the nat geo kit, which is hot garbage). I don't even see 12,000 on The Rock Shed, which everyone says is 100000x more reputable than other sellers. I'm all for fluff around and find out, but it seems like the lack of good and consistent info out there would drive people away from the hobby, unless you already have a geo background and come into with knowledge.
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