travelingsoul
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Member since September 2021
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Post by travelingsoul on Nov 1, 2021 17:00:26 GMT -5
Hello everyone, I recently moved to California, and I was hiking up at Coyote Lake Harvey Bear Ranch (Gilroy, CA) and I stopped on the side of the road to take a picture of the sunset. I noticed this red piece of rock sticking up. I picked the rock up thinking it was a Jasper. The rock has blackish looking spots with green/dark green/yellowish/red/blue colors on it, however, I’m not sure what this is. It also has a lot of pyrite or something like it, I’m assuming (??) all over. (I’m very new to rockhounding) The rock is extremely heavy for it’s size. I should get a scale and weigh it. I’ve posted on a couple different groups and haven’t had much for answers, other than possibly Cinnabar or Serpetine mixture? Which I’ve read up on after that name was mentioned and read about how it can be toxic when cut/polished because of mercury. My friend’s neighbor is a geologist, and I mentioned the rock to her so I’m considering giving it to her to have the neighbor peek at it, but I’m very curious if anyone else has any ideas. Also how do you determine the difference between pyrite, mica, etc?? Oh, I should add, I’ve scratched this with a knife hard and a knife doesn’t dent the rock at all. Just leaves a scratch, no grooves or anything.
One of the sides showing it has red/green
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Post by Son Of Beach on Nov 1, 2021 18:17:04 GMT -5
Whatever it is, it's awesome...love those little bit of everything rocks. Nice snag
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Post by mohs on Nov 1, 2021 19:11:20 GMT -5
yep
all that comes to mind is pegamitic
was there a lot serpentine type material in that area?
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travelingsoul
off to a rocking start
Member since September 2021
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Post by travelingsoul on Nov 1, 2021 19:16:35 GMT -5
yep all that comes to mind is pegamitic was there a lot serpentine type material in that area? No, I didn’t see any that was the weird thing. I walked the lake shore and the hills and never saw serpentine there. The majority of this rock was in the ground. Only the one red corner was sticking up.
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Post by mohs on Nov 1, 2021 21:04:31 GMT -5
the serpentine question was non essential question
like you mentioned that red- which may be the cinnabar- is unique & interesting
I have no idea of how to test for that
best I know is cinnabar is like a 3 on the mohscale have you tried scratching that specific area
good eye- u found a neat rock best of luck finding out....
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Tommy
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Post by Tommy on Nov 2, 2021 9:39:04 GMT -5
travelingsoul I was going to say welcome to CA but my next thought was my condolences That area of Morgan Hill is very rich in beautifully tortured lapidary rocks and it is not unusual at all to find one that has a bunch of different things going on. The red could be cinnabar - does the red specifically scratch with a knife or does it leave a metal streak when attempted? Scratch it's probably cinnabar, streak it's probably jasper. At Anderson Lake which is right next door to Coyote folks collect a type of magnesite which is what your photos four and five remind me of. Here is the best photo I could find of Anderson Lake magnesite rough before cutting - posted by choochoorocksAlso - Googled images for Anderson Lake magnesite
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travelingsoul
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Member since September 2021
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Post by travelingsoul on Nov 2, 2021 12:57:12 GMT -5
travelingsoul I was going to say welcome to CA but my next thought was my condolences That area of Morgan Hill is very rich in beautifully tortured lapidary rocks and it is not unusual at all to find one that has a bunch of different things going on. The red could be cinnabar - does the red specifically scratch with a knife or does it leave a metal streak when attempted? Scratch it's probably cinnabar, streak it's probably jasper. At Anderson Lake which is right next door to Coyote folks collect a type of magnesite which is what your photos four and five remind me of. Here is the best photo I could find of Anderson Lake magnesite rough before cutting - posted by choochoorocks Also - Googled images for Anderson Lake magnesite lol your condolences comment made me laugh! Thank you! There's quite a variety of things to see here in California...minus the traffic!
The red does scratch off with a knife. I'm curious what the blue is on top and in a few other areas. I picked up a rock about a mile from this location maybe and it has the same blue on it. Almost kind of wax like appearance, but I don't know that I'd say that it feels that way.
I did see Anderson Lake on the map and plan on going there at some point. I'm going to have either my friend's neighbor look at it or if I can somewhere to have it cut in half...then I'll do that. I'm very curious about what is going on with this rock.
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Post by stephan on Nov 2, 2021 12:59:23 GMT -5
I think what Tommy means by "condolences" is "good luck identifying your rocks." There is a good reason why it's called the Franciscan complex (or even the Franciscan mélange). I think @jadedvision is on track. Usually we need pretty extensive info to be sure, though, since there are so many possibilities. As for the safety aspect, you'll find many threads on this board discussing those aspects of rocks, with many opinions. As someone who does safety for a living, I am on record as stating that with the proper controls (grinding/cutting wet, with adequate ventilation) mitigates te hazard. Some people thing respirators are necessary. I do not. If you do choose to go that route, however, I am happy to provide guidance on selection and fitting, so that it is not completely useless. Also keep in mind that the mercury in cinnabar has low bioavailability. ETA: blue and waxy could definitely be serpentine. If so, steel will scratch it.
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travelingsoul
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Member since September 2021
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Post by travelingsoul on Nov 2, 2021 13:01:51 GMT -5
I think you have a piece of serpentine, if you see a lot of pyrite the red and yellow areas probably have some iron content. I think there's a very good chance this is serpentine, but I think something else is going on with it. The pyrite is located all throughout the rock, not in one area more than another. The first night I found the rock, it kept me awake trying to research, google, find what this was. (The problem with having a curious mind, it sometimes doesn't shut off lol) At one point I got out of bed and checked to see if it was magnetic at all. lol I mean I was just curious. lol The red does scratch off it seems. I had tried it wet, because I was already looking at it. I'll try again and see what it is. This rock also has some kind of blue, something going on. This blue whatever is what I found on another rock earlier in the day while I was hiking. It was probably a mile from this location. I'll post a picture of that rock too.
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travelingsoul
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Member since September 2021
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Post by travelingsoul on Nov 2, 2021 13:07:43 GMT -5
I think what Tommy means by "condolences" is "good luck identifying your rocks." There is a good reason why it's called the Franciscan complex (or even the Franciscan mélange). I think @jadedvision is on track. Usually we need pretty extensive info to be sur, though, since there are so many possibilities. As for the safety aspect, you'll find many threads on this board discussing those aspects of rocks, with many opinions. As someone who does safety for a living, I am on record as stating that with the proper controls (grinding/cutting wet, with adequate ventilation) mitigates te hazard. Some people thing respirators are necessary. I do not. If you do choose to go that route, however, I am happy to provide guidance on selection and fitting, so that it is not completely useless. Also keep in mind that the mercury in cinnabar has low bioavailability. Thank you! lol I believe the complexity comment! I've been researching a lot on safety with cutting/polishing/grinding of any kind of rocks. I don't have an area to cut rocks and unless I can use a dremel tool or something on a balcony lol I definitely don't have adequate ventilation at this time.
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Tommy
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Post by Tommy on Nov 2, 2021 13:09:52 GMT -5
I think what Tommy means by "condolences" is "good luck identifying your rocks." I was actually thinking about the gas tax they tied to inflation which has now given itself a raise $0.51 per gallon and climbing fast, but yeah identifying rocks here is definitely challenging The solution to that is just keep collecting them to the point where you either know what you're collecting or you don't really care anymore haha.
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travelingsoul
off to a rocking start
Member since September 2021
Posts: 20
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Post by travelingsoul on Nov 2, 2021 13:14:15 GMT -5
This is the same kind of blue, I don't know what that is original rock post.
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travelingsoul
off to a rocking start
Member since September 2021
Posts: 20
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Post by travelingsoul on Nov 2, 2021 13:17:02 GMT -5
I think what Tommy means by "condolences" is "good luck identifying your rocks." I was actually thinking about the gas tax they tied to inflation which has now given itself a raise $0.51 per gallon and climbing fast, but yeah identifying rocks here is definitely challenging The solution to that is just keep collecting them to the point where you either know what you're collecting or you don't really care anymore haha. The gas prices....yeah, those are ridiculous! I'll just keep collecting them lol I mean at some point I might learn something.
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Post by stephan on Nov 2, 2021 13:33:04 GMT -5
I think what Tommy means by "condolences" is "good luck identifying your rocks." I was actually thinking about the gas tax they tied to inflation which has now given itself a raise $0.51 per gallon and climbing fast, but yeah identifying rocks here is definitely challenging The solution to that is just keep collecting them to the point where you either know what you're collecting or you don't really care anymore haha. I haven't gone anywhere in months that could be reached by bike, so I hadn't noticed, other than as I roll by a gas station.
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Fossilman
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Post by Fossilman on Nov 2, 2021 13:54:52 GMT -5
You re right about the Cinnabar its toxic and poison... Handle with care on scraping/cutting it...
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Post by stephan on Nov 2, 2021 14:53:59 GMT -5
Actually, cinnabar is too insoluble to be very toxic. If you ground the whole thing into powder and stirred it into a liter of water, you would have maybe one or two atoms of mercury dissolved.
The forms to worry about are elemental (free) mercury and methyl mercury. To make free mercury, you'd have to heat it 1000°F. To make methyl mercury, you'd need to enlist some pretty specific microbes. You would have to inhale quite a bit of dust to be affected. Scraping at a rock to test it won't get you anywhere close. Cabbing/polishing a couple of stones won't either. You'd have to work on it on a pretty regular basis.
Also, the red could be something else, entirely. If you have serpentine, it decomposes to red. Again, polishing one piece (or even a few) won't have any more of an ill effect than driving on the dirt roads to go collecting.
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Post by rockjunquie on Nov 2, 2021 15:05:36 GMT -5
Actually, cinnabar is too insoluble to be very toxic. If you ground the whole thing into powder and stirred it into a liter of water, you would have maybe one or two atoms of mercury dissolved. The forms to worry about are elemental (free) mercury and methyl mercury. To make free mercury, you'd have to heat it 1000°F. To make methyl mercury, you'd need to enlist some pretty specific microbes. You would have to inhale quite a bit of dust to be affected. Scraping at a rock to test it won't get you anywhere close. Cabbing/polishing a couple of stones won't either. You'd have to work on it on a pretty regular basis. Also, the red could be something else, entirely. If you have serpentine, it decomposes to red. Again, polishing one piece (or even a few) won't have any more of an ill effect than driving on the dirt roads to go collecting. I know a little about your background and appreciate your input about cinnabar/mercury. However, it really goes against everything we have been told. I won't cab that, malachite or bumble bee jasper. Can you explain to us why you are so confident that it is safe since no one else is saying it?
eta- Not arguing at all. Just want to hear more.
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Post by stephan on Nov 2, 2021 15:41:42 GMT -5
Actually, cinnabar is too insoluble to be very toxic. If you ground the whole thing into powder and stirred it into a liter of water, you would have maybe one or two atoms of mercury dissolved. The forms to worry about are elemental (free) mercury and methyl mercury. To make free mercury, you'd have to heat it 1000°F. To make methyl mercury, you'd need to enlist some pretty specific microbes. You would have to inhale quite a bit of dust to be affected. Scraping at a rock to test it won't get you anywhere close. Cabbing/polishing a couple of stones won't either. You'd have to work on it on a pretty regular basis. Also, the red could be something else, entirely. If you have serpentine, it decomposes to red. Again, polishing one piece (or even a few) won't have any more of an ill effect than driving on the dirt roads to go collecting. I know a little about your background and appreciate your input about cinnabar/mercury. However, it really goes against everything we have been told. I won't cab that, malachite or bumble bee jasper. Can you explain to us why you are so confident that it is safe since no one else is saying it? The difference is often in the routes of exposure. Ingestion could be somewhat problematic, because stomach acid could solubilize some otherwise insoluble compounds. However, even then, it's short-lived, because absorption does not occur to any appreciable degree in the stomach. It occurs in the intestines, which are basic. Inhalation of an insoluble compound depends on absorption to create toxicity (when tocicity is the same as poisin, which is not always the case). In order to absorb, it needs to be soluble, so that it can get into cells. Without that, all you get, for the lack of a better descriptor, is colorful boogers. The same thing is true for the forms of inorganic arsenic found in bumble bee jasper, orpiment, etc. Malachite is somewhat different, in that copper does not need to be organic or elemental to be absorbed. However, it being a micro-nutrient, the toxic dose is also higher. For this reason, a single/occasional exposures represent low risk. The problem is for those who receive chronic exposures -- in other words, those work with or are exposed to these materials routinely over a long period of time. They bioaccumulate, so the levels in the body build up over time, and gradually become toxic (this is also true for lead and other heavy metals, which is why certain fish should not be consumed on a regular basis -- they accumulated high levels of toxins over time, and eating one may not be a problem, but but eating them twice a week for ten years is another story). This makes chronic exposure different from acute exposure. ETA: I understood it a desire to understand, not an argument. Also, I don't mind a debate, as long as people are polite and willing to hear (ping-pong, not archery).
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Post by mohs on Nov 2, 2021 15:43:18 GMT -5
dumerotite may be the mineral that colors that metamorphic wonder blue
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Post by rockjunquie on Nov 2, 2021 15:49:09 GMT -5
I know a little about your background and appreciate your input about cinnabar/mercury. However, it really goes against everything we have been told. I won't cab that, malachite or bumble bee jasper. Can you explain to us why you are so confident that it is safe since no one else is saying it? The difference is often in the routes of exposure. Ingestion could be somewhat problematic, because stomach acid could solubilize some otherwise insoluble compounds. However, even then, it's short-lived, because absorption does not occur to any appreciable degree in the stomach. It occurs in the intestines, which are basic. Inhalation of an insoluble compound depends on absorption to create toxicity (when tocicity is the same as poisin, which is not always the case). In order to absorb, it needs to be soluble, so that it can get into cells. Without that, all you get, for the lack of a better descriptor, is colorful boogers. The same thing is true for the forms of inorganic arsenic found in bumble bee jasper, orpiment, etc. Malachite is somewhat different, in that copper does not need to be organic or elemental to be absorbed. However, it being a micro-nutrient, the toxic dose is also higher. For this reason, a single/occasional exposures represent low risk. The problem is for those who receive chronic exposures -- in other words, those work with or are exposed to these materials routinely over a long period of time. They bioaccumulate, so the levels in the body build up over time, and gradually become toxic (this is also true for lead and other heavy metals, which is why certain fish should not be consumed on a regular basis -- they accumulated high levels of toxins over time, and eating one may not be a problem, but but eating them twice a week for ten years is another story). This makes chronic exposure different from acute exposure. ETA: I understood it a desire to understand, not an argument. Also, I don't mind a debate, as long as people are polite and willing to hear (ping-pong, not archery).
Thanks. That made sense.
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