rolleyholeman1
having dreams about rocks
Member since November 2023
Posts: 55
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Post by rolleyholeman1 on Nov 24, 2023 1:43:11 GMT -5
Hey all, figured I'd introduce myself.
I am Chris from East Tennessee/ Middle Tennessee as I do travel a bit between the divisions. Years ago my dad and I used to tumble the very interesting rocks found on the family farm, though time has taken its toll on this gear. It seems the rubber drums we have are all warped and such. But that's not too important.
What I do seems to best align with the "sphere making" section of this forum, though I do a bit more than that. I make "spheres" or actually marbles for the regional marble game known as "Rolley Hole". My knowledge of rocks is limited and I am very often confused by what exactly the material I prefer is. I always call it "quartz" though around here marbles are called "flint". I make marbles in a variety of colors from this local material found mostly in Overton County Tn and the town of Byrdstown. During the last couple years I have worked with Tennessee State Parks, but recently being laid off due to the off-season and unable to land anything, I have been making plenty of marbles.
Marbles for this game must be able to survive the impacts from opponents marbles. Glass marble simply won't due to how brittle they are. Using material on the Mohs hardness scale around a 6.5-7 roughly, we make marbles that can absorb an impact better and last for years. Many marbles are handed down from generation to generation, though I don't know anyone playing with heirloom marbles often. Sometimes these marbles are given to a marble maker for resurfacing, though that does take away some material and can affect the shooting of the marble. Players with beefy hands often play with a smaller marble around .75", and players with skinny hands like myself like a bigger marble of .80 or so. One of my best shooting marbles I made at .79. The finish of the marble also is important. Some players like a rough marble for more control, while others like a polished marble since it eases from the hand better. Players don't like to borrow my marbles since they're slick, but I have gotten more into making marbles that are a bit more rough.
I also do not use the sphere machines I see here. They seem neat, but I make marbles by starting with a cube, then grinding the cube into a cylinder, then shaping a sphere. Some start with a cube and hit all the edges and cut the marble out, but I don't do this process often, I seem to struggle there.
Anyways I was hoping to find someone fairly local who could cut material into cubes for me. That may not be best use of the forum, but I have exhausted my resources. I have found some good looking material and was using a state owned tile saw, but don't have access to it due to distance. Plus it takes a very long time to cut material with what I was using.
If anyone has any questions regarding Rolley Hole, I will answer to the best of my ability. I also have numerous resources on a marble forum which I have uploaded various documents and videos to. Youtube has a good amount of videos I have uploaded as well, which are old news videos covering the game. Some are much better than others at explaining it.
If Rolley Hole sounds familiar, we were also recently featured on CBS Sunday morning news.
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khara
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2022
Posts: 1,733
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Post by khara on Nov 24, 2023 2:09:34 GMT -5
Interesting hobby. I don’t think I’ve heard of anyone here making marbles though plenty of sphere makers. There are some bead makers here too and I’ve read about some home made bead making devices which are interesting and something I could have fun trying some day. Welcome! And I’d be interested in seeing some pics of your marbles at some point!
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Post by vegasjames on Nov 24, 2023 6:31:49 GMT -5
Welcome Chris from Southern Nevada. Flint/chert, a type of chalcedony, is a cryptocrytalline to microcrytalline quartz. So both names would be technically correct. Common chalcedonies, agate and jasper are also cryptocrytalline to microcrytalline quartz. If you want real hard, you could go with jade, although it is a lot more costly than chalcedonies. Rhyolites would also make excellent marbles. Some rhyolites, such as candy rhyolite, take a super high polish easily. Other rhyolites I have worked with such as confetti stone, feel chalkier, but are very tough stones. Tiger's eye should work really well also as it has fibers that should reinforce it, but in a chalcedony matrix. I have also come across some very hard, abnormally dense what some would call jasper and others chert/flint in Northern Nevada that when you find it the stone has a high natural polish on the surface. Never tried to work with it yet. If you are going to do a lot of marbles I suggest a better option wold be since you mentioned grinding the cubes in to a cylinder it to start with a cylinder. In other words, using a core drill or core drill bit to cut cylinders from the stone. Considering the small diameter, you could then easily cut the cylinders in to segments with a used tile saw or flip the cores sideways and core them a second time, which will save a lot of grinding time. Then look in to making a homemade marble machine, which is pretty basic. A rotating lap underneath a platform with holes where the preforms are put in so they can rotate on the lap within the holes rounding them in to marbles. I have seen these before, but cannot find any links to the design I am referring to, but you should check out this thread: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/76599
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Post by liveoak on Nov 24, 2023 7:38:45 GMT -5
Welcome from NW Florida.
Having never heard of your Rolley Hole game, I had to look it up. Looks like you guys are having fun - although the funny part is the video never said how you play, except that it's something like croquet.
Patty
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dillonf
fully equipped rock polisher
Hounding and tumbling
Member since February 2022
Posts: 1,595
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Post by dillonf on Nov 24, 2023 9:41:08 GMT -5
Welcome.
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Nov 24, 2023 21:28:12 GMT -5
Welcome from Northern Arizona!
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rolleyholeman1
having dreams about rocks
Member since November 2023
Posts: 55
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Post by rolleyholeman1 on Nov 25, 2023 1:39:27 GMT -5
Welcome from NW Florida.
Having never heard of your Rolley Hole game, I had to look it up. Looks like you guys are having fun - although the funny part is the video never said how you play, except that it's something like croquet.
Patty This is actually due to the crew who was working on this segment. All members of the filming crew played Rolley Hole with us, and the main reporter not only played, but knew HOW to play and what was going on. They apologized to us for spinning the game the way they did and having the sections about how long time visitors don't know how to play. All of that nonsense simply isn't true. I can get any group of people playing and understanding the game in 10 minutes or less. Really it's a simple game to get anyone into. What takes time is figuring out how to shoot well and how to do strategy. There's some better videos on Youtube about this. I won't spin it as an easy game, but let me give an example here. I had a group of people playing with me a few months back. One of the player, who was probably 10 years old, was telling her grandfather what to do, and she was right in her strategy. She had never played before. Her grandfather, on the other hand, was making shots from over 10 feet away and turned out to secretly be an old marble player from the heart of marbles country out here. Regardless, it's not this unobtainable unlearnable game some people make it out to be. There can be some tricky rules here and there, but nothing some gameplay won't teach you. When I teach the game, I avoid telling any rules but the basics. I only tell rules as they appear.
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rolleyholeman1
having dreams about rocks
Member since November 2023
Posts: 55
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Post by rolleyholeman1 on Nov 25, 2023 1:45:37 GMT -5
Welcome Chris from Southern Nevada. Flint/chert, a type of chalcedony, is a cryptocrytalline to microcrytalline quartz. So both names would be technically correct. Common chalcedonies, agate and jasper are also cryptocrytalline to microcrytalline quartz. If you want real hard, you could go with jade, although it is a lot more costly than chalcedonies. Rhyolites would also make excellent marbles. Some rhyolites, such as candy rhyolite, take a super high polish easily. Other rhyolites I have worked with such as confetti stone, feel chalkier, but are very tough stones. Tiger's eye should work really well also as it has fibers that should reinforce it, but in a chalcedony matrix. I have also come across some very hard, abnormally dense what some would call jasper and others chert/flint in Northern Nevada that when you find it the stone has a high natural polish on the surface. Never tried to work with it yet. If you are going to do a lot of marbles I suggest a better option wold be since you mentioned grinding the cubes in to a cylinder it to start with a cylinder. In other words, using a core drill or core drill bit to cut cylinders from the stone. Considering the small diameter, you could then easily cut the cylinders in to segments with a used tile saw or flip the cores sideways and core them a second time, which will save a lot of grinding time. Then look in to making a homemade marble machine, which is pretty basic. A rotating lap underneath a platform with holes where the preforms are put in so they can rotate on the lap within the holes rounding them in to marbles. I have seen these before, but cannot find any links to the design I am referring to, but you should check out this thread: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/76599That's some cool info. Some of the material you mention, like Tiger's eye, are made into marbles sometimes. I was told not to grind tiger's eye because it contains asbestos, which I don't know much about. I do like the idea of using a core bit so I will look into that. Seems I'm having issues responding to this thread so I can't type much at a time, but in regards to a marble making machine, for now I will keep doing what I'm doing. I make marbles for the folklore aspect as well and people respond well to it. There's nothing like making a marble in front of 20+ people and having them in awe that someone would do such a thing, then taking a finished marble over to the yard. There's something special about that.
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Post by vegasjames on Nov 25, 2023 3:13:28 GMT -5
Welcome Chris from Southern Nevada. Flint/chert, a type of chalcedony, is a cryptocrytalline to microcrytalline quartz. So both names would be technically correct. Common chalcedonies, agate and jasper are also cryptocrytalline to microcrytalline quartz. If you want real hard, you could go with jade, although it is a lot more costly than chalcedonies. Rhyolites would also make excellent marbles. Some rhyolites, such as candy rhyolite, take a super high polish easily. Other rhyolites I have worked with such as confetti stone, feel chalkier, but are very tough stones. Tiger's eye should work really well also as it has fibers that should reinforce it, but in a chalcedony matrix. I have also come across some very hard, abnormally dense what some would call jasper and others chert/flint in Northern Nevada that when you find it the stone has a high natural polish on the surface. Never tried to work with it yet. If you are going to do a lot of marbles I suggest a better option wold be since you mentioned grinding the cubes in to a cylinder it to start with a cylinder. In other words, using a core drill or core drill bit to cut cylinders from the stone. Considering the small diameter, you could then easily cut the cylinders in to segments with a used tile saw or flip the cores sideways and core them a second time, which will save a lot of grinding time. Then look in to making a homemade marble machine, which is pretty basic. A rotating lap underneath a platform with holes where the preforms are put in so they can rotate on the lap within the holes rounding them in to marbles. I have seen these before, but cannot find any links to the design I am referring to, but you should check out this thread: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/76599That's some cool info. Some of the material you mention, like Tiger's eye, are made into marbles sometimes. I was told not to grind tiger's eye because it contains asbestos, which I don't know much about. I do like the idea of using a core bit so I will look into that. Seems I'm having issues responding to this thread so I can't type much at a time, but in regards to a marble making machine, for now I will keep doing what I'm doing. I make marbles for the folklore aspect as well and people respond well to it. There's nothing like making a marble in front of 20+ people and having them in awe that someone would do such a thing, then taking a finished marble over to the yard. There's something special about that. Tiger's eye does contain fibers that are generally considered asbestos, although I have seen some arguments that the asbestos fibers are replaced by other minerals. Regardless, even if still asbestos, the fibers are bound in a quartz matrix, and so is not going to go airborne as dangerous fibers. Even when grinding, the asbestos would no longer be in fiber form, so is no different that grinding quartz. Same protection against inhaling the silica dust is used.
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Post by liveoak on Nov 25, 2023 7:41:30 GMT -5
What takes time is figuring out how to shoot well and how to do strategy. Thanks for explaining that- it was a funny report in that way.
Seems obviously that people know how to play and enjoy it.
When I was a kid in NYC we planned a street game called Skully, it is played with bottle caps filled with wax (hell it was NY !) . As you say, the skill is in the shooting & judging distance.
Show us your marbles
Patty
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Post by Jugglerguy on Nov 25, 2023 9:26:27 GMT -5
This is really interesting, I have been thinking of making marbles for awhile. I like the idea of making spheres, but making large ones takes so much time and fairly large material. I think I’d rather have a larger number of small spheres from material I can find myself. I’d love to hear more about your process of making marbles. In the video, it looks like a much different process than the sphere machines people on this forum tend to use.
I was also interested in how learning how to play the game until I saw how large the playing field was. It looks like you’d either have to live in an area that already has a field or court or whatever you call it, or commit to making one yourself. Is there actually a hole there somewhere?
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rolleyholeman1
having dreams about rocks
Member since November 2023
Posts: 55
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Post by rolleyholeman1 on Nov 26, 2023 2:33:33 GMT -5
This is really interesting, I have been thinking of making marbles for awhile. I like the idea of making spheres, but making large ones takes so much time and fairly large material. I think I’d rather have a larger number of small spheres from material I can find myself. I’d love to hear more about your process of making marbles. In the video, it looks like a much different process than the sphere machines people on this forum tend to use. I was also interested in how learning how to play the game until I saw how large the playing field was. It looks like you’d either have to live in an area that already has a field or court or whatever you call it, or commit to making one yourself. Is there actually a hole there somewhere? The yard itself has 3 holes, and players must make a total of 12 holes in order similar to crochet, which is another game many people have never played. The issue when explaining Rolley Hole now days is the old references are lost in a culture that has moved past a lot of these things. When I expalin it out to people, usually they're totally lost, or in Tennessee they pause and then excitingly say "OH so it's like Pig!'. "Pig" is a regional card game played commonly at the Forbes General Store just outside Alvin C. York State Park, and the only comparison is that both are a regional game. As for the yard's compesition, a marble yard takes a lot of work and care to be a good yard. It needs to be the right moisture and have the right loamy soil found in some rivers and streams in the area. The soil is brought to the yard in tied up pantyhose (as is tradition), and is sprinkled on the yard. Then the yard is wet to get all the soil to blend together, and once it's dry you have to drag a metal tire rim around it to get that powdery surface again. Powder on a marble yard is crucial, and a yard with no powder is no good at all for most players. We use the dirt on our hands to help slip the marble out when shooting, so before a shot you will see players "sweep" their hand through the dirt, then shoot. It's a lot like chalking a pool cue, or climbers having a bag of chalk. The dust on the surface also absorbs impact like the felt on a pool table. You may want to land a marble right in front of an opponent, letting your marble smack the ground and then the opponent. I can talk about it all day really. A fun story involving yard care comes from a day and age when marbles were so popular, that the Clay County Courthouse had its own marble yard. When it was too wet, locals would douse the yard in gasoline and light it on fire to have the right moisture level for playing. This was common across all the marble yards except the few yards that had coverings or were indoors. I don't know how many yards are left, but talking to players there seems to be maybe 5 active yards or so now, with some yards getting restored with permission from the new (not marble playing) landowners. Here are some links to marble making videos from people I know and learned the craft from: This one is by Matthew in Utah : This one is by the Waldens who are local : My process is similar to these. The locals here all picked up the modern way of marble making from a marble maker by the name of "Bud Garrett" who started using electric grinders and tools to make his marbles. He was, and still is, a very famous marble maker in this area. He used to make marbles and sell them in a bucket at the local hardware store. Fittingly, Bud passed away while playing Rolley Hole on his own personal marble yard in Free Hill, Tennessee. Here are some resources for him: southernchanges.digitalscholarship.emory.edu/sc10-1_001/sc10-1_005/tnartscommission.org/permanentcollection/robert-bud-garrett/claycountycourthousetn.com/bud-garrett-musician/Bud's marbles carried a guarantee I have not heard anyone else having. If a marble broke due to faults, you could return the pieces and in exchange, he would give you another marble. A lot of the marbles I have seen from him are like marbles I make which have crystal structures and pits in them. If they were good enough for Bud, they're good enough for me. Some makers have gotten increasingly picky which in some ways is good, but you see less variety. Hopefully I didn't go on for too long about Rolley Hole. Seems to be a bad habit of mine. Even when I worked at other parks I was still spreading Rolley Hole around. We just have a good time with it.
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rolleyholeman1
having dreams about rocks
Member since November 2023
Posts: 55
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Post by rolleyholeman1 on Nov 26, 2023 2:35:59 GMT -5
What takes time is figuring out how to shoot well and how to do strategy. Thanks for explaining that- it was a funny report in that way.
Seems obviously that people know how to play and enjoy it.
When I was a kid in NYC we planned a street game called Skully, it is played with bottle caps filled with wax (hell it was NY !) . As you say, the skill is in the shooting & judging distance.
Show us your marbles
Patty
Since I do not have photos on my laptop, I will link a thread here from the marble forum which is a ton of my photos from marble making plus some marble discussions. marbleconnection.com/topic/36265-making-rolley-hole-marbles-this-year/
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rolleyholeman1
having dreams about rocks
Member since November 2023
Posts: 55
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Post by rolleyholeman1 on Nov 26, 2023 2:47:38 GMT -5
As for my marble making process, I wont go crazy into detail. Really there isn't a lot to what I do, it just takes time to do it. First off I walk the local rivers and streams looking for the golden-brown crust of a good nodule. Sometimes I find an odd piece like the piece I made by butterscotch marbles from. That piece (and I wish I took photos) was a flat rock that when walking the stream, was this dark black color. I picked it up because it looked weird. I quickly saw it was quartz, and took it back and cut it. The rock was flat, and only 1" tall, and maybe 10" long and 8" wide.
Anyways, I use a tile saw to make rough cubes the best I can, but this is a pain and takes forever with my tools. Many people can quickly cut stuff with proper saws while I can't. Others also have less wasted material while my wide blade hacks big sections away and sometimes my cuts leave pieces just too small to do anything with.
From there I trace a circle onto a cube and grind away with a 60 gritt cheap diamond wheel from Amazon, then shape the cylinder on the ends to a point/cone shape. From there it's a matter of keeping all sides pretty even to make a rough sphere.
Once a sphere is formed, I place it into an indentation in an old grinding wheel, and I spin the marble in the indentation using a rubber wheel that was once some sort of sanding drum attachment. Many people have various rubber wheel that do better than what I have. My other wheel for spinning is actually and old skateboard wheel. The goal here is to spin the marble but you need some bounce to really get it to cut. Past that it's just a matter of measuring with calipers to get an even sphere. I use some cheap digital ones for this made from plastic, then when it looks good I will use a metal analogue gauge my dad used for engineering. With that I can really get the size close, usually within a thousandth of an inch, though I will admit I am not as refined as a lot of guys are. When you make a lot of marbles, you get better and better feeling the bad spots.
I also like to cover a marble in permanent marker and then spin it. As the marker wears away, it stays in the low spots so you know where to work. The lowest spot is as large as the marble will ever be, so you have to take that marble back to the grinder and wear it down for spinning again. You need to leave it rough to let it cut. Sometimes you can accidentally polish it too much and then it won't grind in the cup all that well. When it gets too smooth, you won't see any dust coming off which is no good.
Hopefully that helps some. I have had people asking me for educational videos on this but I have no way to hold a camera, and also feel a little insecure teaching it when there's true masters who could really do better.
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Post by vegasjames on Nov 26, 2023 7:40:11 GMT -5
Here is a really good tutorial video where he actually explains the process of making a stone marble
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Post by Jugglerguy on Nov 26, 2023 17:48:57 GMT -5
Hopefully I didn't go on for too long about Rolley Hole. Seems to be a bad habit of mine. Even whenI worked at other parks I was still spreading Rolley Hole around. We just have a good time with it. You didn't go on too long at all. I find this game fascinating. I love how some games are played in only a small geographical area but are loved by the people who live there. We have a card game here in the north east part of the lower peninsula of Michigan called Spitzer. My wife's parents tried to teach us how to play it, but it was pretty confusing. Still, there are Spitzer tournaments in the area. It's a very interesting game from what I've seen.
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rolleyholeman1
having dreams about rocks
Member since November 2023
Posts: 55
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Post by rolleyholeman1 on Nov 27, 2023 0:50:07 GMT -5
Hopefully I didn't go on for too long about Rolley Hole. Seems to be a bad habit of mine. Even whenI worked at other parks I was still spreading Rolley Hole around. We just have a good time with it. You didn't go on too long at all. I find this game fascinating. I love how some games are played in only a small geographical area but are loved by the people who live there. We have a card game here in the north east part of the lower peninsula of Michigan called Spitzer. My wife's parents tried to teach us how to play it, but it was pretty confusing. Still, there are Spitzer tournaments in the area. It's a very interesting game from what I've seen. Regional card games are always interesting. Like marbles it's something that kinda died out but it kept going by a small group of dedicated fans. With marbles, especially Rolley Hole, things get pretty interesting since the game of Rolley Hole takes it's origin from a the United Kingdom and Australia. And Australian game called "knucks" (which some of the old timers use the name for Rolley Hole), is pretty much exactly the same. Up north similar marble games played with holes were once common in the dirt alleyways of New York City and areas in New Jersey. It's just one of those things that comes in waves too. It will wane in popularity for a while and then suddenly come back. The issue with Rolley Hole is that our yards are so refined that when people try to replicate it in other areas, they just can't due to the soil. Geology also plays a part because a lot of areas people just can't find the material and that caused some to lose interest since they have to import their marbles.
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rolleyholeman1
having dreams about rocks
Member since November 2023
Posts: 55
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Post by rolleyholeman1 on Nov 27, 2023 0:57:41 GMT -5
Anyways folks, when bumming around my garage I found a couple rock tumblers that seem to have good drums, so I might make some rough spheres and see what these things can do. I have some worries with this though. I have been shown some nice marbles but people point out faults and shake their heads, saying those marbles were put in a rock tumbler. I have various buckets of compound I will have to look into learning to use. Next to me I have a small bucket of "abrasive" 220 grit and another bucket that says 60/90 grit. Somewhere around here I have larger buckets but need to remember where I saw them.
My dad used to work at a place that had their own in-house private listing sight like Craigslist, so I suspect he had bought someone out of all this stuff probably around 20 years ago. I don't remember us ever finishing any stones but do remember the machines running on the back porch. I have 3 or 4 of these big blue units laying around, and some cheap looking grey plastic unit with a red drum.
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rolleyholeman1
having dreams about rocks
Member since November 2023
Posts: 55
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Post by rolleyholeman1 on Nov 27, 2023 1:22:56 GMT -5
Ran out to the garage real quick and I may have less rock tumblers than I thought. My mom likes to move stuff around so I may have seen one tumbler in multiple locations.
What I did find is a "rolling star" 3 lb small tumbler with drum which looks like it'll be just perfect. The other unit I found is a multi drum Lortone 33B that I don't see the drums for. I have seen the rubber drums in our storage building in the past, and they had been smooshed by something sitting on top of them. I couldn't get those to seal and the metal tops just pop right off. So I'm not out of the woods yet.
I found a stack of small cans labeled 1-5 all with different grits, and one with pebbles that look plastic.
Seems I have all the stuff to get off to a rolling start. With how long it takes to spin a marble, I wonder if I can start out putting a bunch of spheres in a tumbler and leaving it for a while. Then I can move on over to the marble machine to surface and finish. I find myself spending too much time making and listing marbles with little online success, so if I can cut the process I would be more obliged to lower the price of my rather expensive marbles. At the park I have some areas I also dumped quartz shards that may be fun to tumble.
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Post by rockjunquie on Nov 27, 2023 8:01:39 GMT -5
Welcome from Virginia!
As a kid in Rhode Island, I played marbles a lot. We played for keepsies. I had a huge jar of fantastic marbles. I was the neighborhood champ. Sadly, I have forgotten how to play. I don't know if it is the same version as yours, either.
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