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Post by parfive on Apr 12, 2010 15:29:09 GMT -5
. . . and he even looks like your average beer sucking gut guy.
How cool is that?
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jerryde
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2005
Posts: 246
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Post by jerryde on Apr 12, 2010 16:38:06 GMT -5
Well at least he has kept millions from freezing to death and warm in the winter so they can earn a living and feed their families. Tell me how many truckers that have been killed by trying to earn a fair wage...or farmers killed on the dairy farms just so you can suck on your latte, or the the fishermen and women just so you can have your fresh oysters...the list goes on and on...
My father's family knows the dangers of coal mining in Colorado... in Coal Creek...just a different breed of people that love that kind of honest work...
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,466
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Post by Sabre52 on Apr 12, 2010 17:18:04 GMT -5
Feeeforms. Man so many things to address. First off Obama believes in redistribution of wealth from those who earned it to those who did not, which is Marxist and morally wrong in my book unless those folks are charity cases definitely unable to work for a living. As for tax breaks for the wealthy. The wealthy create the jobs and they "pay" almost all the taxes. You destroy the wealthy class and you watch how many non government jobs are lost. Half the country does not pay any taxes now and in my book should not even get a vote. Why should non taxpayers with no chips in the game, get any say on how the country is run? Hell, they ain't even in the game. They've nothing to lose, are gambling nothing and have only to gain from selling their vote to the highest bidder, which corrupts the political system.
That he is critical of capitalism comes out in many of his speeches where he likes to pick on his industry of the day. If you haven't seen it you've gotta be blind. And he is already gaining government control of may aspects of the economy, healthcare, banks, investment companies, car companies etc etc.
Re the working class seizing power. His unconditional support of the unions that back him with money and votes is one good example. I always find it interesting how he seldom goes against the unions when often the unions and their huge entitlement programs are the root of large economic problems, not the management in all cases, as Obama and others would have us believe. I'll qualify this by adding that yes, in many cases, management is at fault and oddly enough, in those cases the politicians in power bail them out too. Guess it's OK to bail out golfing buddies as well as unions. He even helped unions gain ownership of car companies at the expense of shareholders who invested in the car companies in good faith and were screwed by Obama's administration.
Lastly, I also believe a lot of the Marxist rhetoric we hear from the left is actually just a smokescreen anyway and a mere posturing to buy votes. After all, all the politicians in power, right or left "are" the rich, the heavily invested, powerful, corporation owning, lawyering bastiches that they claim to hate so much. So, I guess in some ways I am incorrect in that, I'm sure Obama and his gang are all for redistribution of wealth and the rise of the working class as long as it's not their wealth being redistributed and their power that is taken over by the working class. I think that's why they fear the Tea Party folks so much as it's a "real" movement to take power back to the people..Mel
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Post by texaswoodie on Apr 12, 2010 20:57:29 GMT -5
Yup Mel, the Tea Party is a serious threat to these guys. For the most part they are all about God, Family, and Country in that order. Yet they are radical racist to the Libs. Kinda tells you what kind of people the Libs are.
Something to think about. Has a poor person ever given you a job?
Curt
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free4rms
freely admits to licking rocks
My little pet walrus
Member since January 2007
Posts: 839
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Post by free4rms on Apr 13, 2010 21:01:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification, Mel. Let me see if I understand it: <<First off Obama believes in redistribution of wealth from those who earned it to those who did not, which is Marxist and morally wrong in my book unless those folks are charity cases definitely unable to work for a living. So as long as the redistribution of wealth works only in the direction of the wealthy, then it is ok? If more and more middle class people can't get a tax break and maybe get ahead in the world, it doesn't matter as long as the wealthy get a bigger and bigger piece of the pie? You destroy the working class and watch how many huge corporations file for bankruptcy. I wondered over this until I finally understood why you favor the wealthy over everyone else in the country. I didn't catch on at first, but it appears that you prefer an oligarchy form of government instead of our tired old democracy. Why else would you say: <Half the country does not pay any taxes now and in my book *should not even get a vote*. Why should non taxpayers with no chips in the game, get any say on how the country is run? Hell, they ain't even in the game. They've nothing to lose, are gambling nothing and have only to gain from selling their vote to the highest bidder, which corrupts the political system. In an oligarchy, a country is ruled by an elite group of people. Here is a good definition from Encyclopedia Brittanica: “government by the few, especially despotic power exercised by a small and privileged group for corrupt or selfish purposes”. Hmmm, remind you of any large corporations lately? So you think only those who have enough money to pay taxes (and many extremely wealthy people pay lower taxes than their secretaries) should have any vote at all, and that only those making enough money should have a vote? Whew, pretty radical there, Mel. I wonder how many other forum members think this country should be run only by those of wealth. How about it folks? Do any of you guys and gals want to have a government run by the banks, the insurance companies, the CEOs with their multi-million dollar bonuses , the Enrons and AIGs of the world? Would you be willing go give up your vote to these guys? Not me. But before you decide, here are some really nice countries who have an oligarchy of some kind: North Korea, Cuba, South Africa when they practiced apartheid , Saudi Arabia, and there are others. Now, these were not all economic oligarchies, and there are other kinds, but I think you get the idea. You want to talk about morally wrong? I think denying any representation in the government to the less wealthy is completely immoral. And just so the ruling group in the oligarchy, the wealthy, can get wealthier? I guess the poorer ones can just eat cake. Oh, and the people who are " selling their vote to the highest bidder, which corrupts the political system" are the politicians who are pandering to the wealthiest lobbyists. One other thing you said confuses me, though. << he is already gaining government control of may aspects of the economy, healthcare, banks, investment companies, car companies How is he "gaining control" of these aspects of the economy? The banks were bailed out rather than the country suffering the consequences of more massive failures and an even greater financial disaster, but once the banks pay back the bailout money, they are no longer beholden to the government. Not only are they home free, they will have managed to accomplish this *and* make their CEO's and stockholders massively richer. So where is the control then? Same with the car companies. Some of them have already paid back the money or a good portion of it. And I don't recall any of these companies being forced to take the bailout money. Oh... and concerning the Tea Baggers (the ones that are splitting up into factions and lacking any real platform, just using catchy phrases) <<I think that's why they fear the Tea Party folks so much as it's a "real" movement to take power back to the people The Tea Baggers, a thinly disguised spin-off from the Republican party (regardless of their protests to the contrary) are legends in their own minds. Remember how they are going to vote Democrats out of office in November (are they targeting any Republicans at all)? Here is the latest CNN poll on how people would vote today: www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/04/13/Poll-Democrats-make-gains-in-House-battle/UPI-93821271202727/If you don't want to read the whole thing, here are some exerpts: If the election was held today, 50 percent of the public would back Democratic candidates and 46 percent said they would support Republican candidates , the CNN-Opinion Research Corp. survey released Tuesday indicates. The result is a change from the CNN poll conducted in March, when the GOP held the advantage. Wow, a change to the left in just one month... Hmm, seems the people are starting to realize the health care bill scare tactics were just that. Come November, the Dems will still lose seats, but will not suffer the devastating losses the Tea Baggers are already taking credit for. Especially as the economy slowly continues to improve.
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Post by texaswoodie on Apr 13, 2010 21:17:32 GMT -5
CNN poll................ROFLMAO
Yup, the "Tea Baggers" are a bunch of no count jerks who are not making any difference. Keep on thinking that Libs.
Curt
Curt
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snuffy
Cave Dweller
Member since May 2009
Posts: 4,319
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Post by snuffy on Apr 13, 2010 21:42:17 GMT -5
I really wonder who cnn polls,if its their viewers,thats not a very large sampling if you've seen the latest ratings. Just who do they poll?
snuffy
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,466
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Post by Sabre52 on Apr 13, 2010 22:31:38 GMT -5
Jeez Vance! Yeah government by everyone who contributes to the workings of a country ( all the workers, all the taxpayers) is an oligarchy. I'm afraid it's you who doesn't get the idea. All the people in the working taxpayer class is not an elite group except in your mind. Also, the redistribution of wealth only in one direction, towards the rich is IMO also a figment of your imagination. Lots of free riders out there getting a ride on the backs of working, taxpaying Americans. Almost half the country benefits from the taxes paid by the other half. From the stance you continue to take I'm thinking you must be one of the latter group because if it was the fruits of your labor being taken from you and given to others, I'd think you'd complain. Re: your opinion on the composition of the Tea Party, that's just pure lefty bull. The group has a large percentage of Democrats that are awakening to the wrongs being done by their party and a whopping percentage of independents too. Folks like you only wish it was mainly Republicans *L*. So sad, too bad Vance....Mel
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Post by Toad on Apr 13, 2010 22:56:21 GMT -5
LOL, Curt. No, a poor person has never hired me to do anything.
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Post by texaswoodie on Apr 14, 2010 6:45:24 GMT -5
****(are they targeting any Republicans at all)?****
As a matter of a fact, John McCain is on their list. I think there may be a couple of others but not sure.
Curt
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Post by Toad on Apr 14, 2010 6:48:20 GMT -5
Is John McCain a Republican? I always thought of him as an independant.
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free4rms
freely admits to licking rocks
My little pet walrus
Member since January 2007
Posts: 839
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Post by free4rms on Apr 14, 2010 6:58:39 GMT -5
<All the people in the working taxpayer class is not an elite group except in your mind.
Nope, not by the definition of an oligarchy. If you select one portion of a population that shares a main characteristic (paying taxes), give them all the power to control the government (by giving them all the voting power), they become the elite group and that is an oligarchy. You statements about denying voting rights to any citizens for whatever reason still makes me think you do not prefer a true democracy in the U.S. If we don't agree on this issue, then we will just have to agree to disagree, I think.
By the way, you can guess all you want about my tax status. But here's a clue for you, I pay a significant share of taxes every year, and I still stand behind my position on taxation.
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Post by texaswoodie on Apr 14, 2010 7:02:04 GMT -5
McCain is a RINO Todd.
Curt
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free4rms
freely admits to licking rocks
My little pet walrus
Member since January 2007
Posts: 839
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Post by free4rms on Apr 14, 2010 7:11:58 GMT -5
A little more on the issue of the Tea Baggers. Can anyone tell me where the tea baggers really stand on issues, any issues? I mean, anyone can say they believe in fiscal responsibility, less taxaton, etc . But I have never, ever seen any nitty-gritty details, like less taxation for whom, how the economy is going to rebound without any influx of money at all and what they think the results would be without incurring the debt needed to get us out of the economic mess. Now, you right wingers will all jump in and put words in their mouths for them, but can anyone show me some actual footage of specifically how and what they would want their candidate (yet to be named) to do? Any legitimate tea bagger websites with specifics? Otherwise, I have to assume that they are just using catchy phrases designed to appeal to the unquestioning masses, like Mom's apple Pie, the Amercian flag, that sort of stuff
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,466
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Post by Sabre52 on Apr 14, 2010 7:56:50 GMT -5
Yup, McCain is a RINO not a Republican.
Vance: I think it's great you pay taxes and have chips in the game and I fully support your right to stand on a street corner and pass out your money to everyone with their hand out. I would not however support your desire to take other peoples money and stand on a street corner and hand it out which is what you'd love to do to give yourself that warm and fuzzy feeling. I think the US is supposed to be a republic, not a true democracy which basically does not work, and I agree that while I believe in democratic principles, I do not believe in the concept of a democratic welfare state complete with entitlements for all, which you appear to embrace. I would envision voter limitations/requirements merely as a way to limit corruption of the election process by those willing to sell their votes for entitlements. You see it's kind of like vampires and bloodbanks. The folks wanting free stuff are like a pack of vampires wanting fresh blood and folks like you come up with the concept of the bloodbank in which you dole out not only your own blood to the vampires but blood which you take from others as well. Matter of fact, you become mighty free with blood as long as it ain't all yours. The theory is, you satiate the vampires and they support keeping the folks in your bloodbank in power. Problem is, the bloodbank folks, oh they figure they don't have enough blood to spare but folks in some other group, well they're glutted with blood so the bloodbank folks, well, they go take much more blood from the other folks which eventually drains them dry and makes them want to join the vampires or leave the country. In the end this leaves even the bloodbank folks looking at a huge hoard of bloodstarved vampires. Moral of the story is: If you create enough vampires, eventually everyone with blood becomes lunch!" Which , is exactly how a welfare state works.
RE: The tea party stand on issues. I believe the major platform which is common to all is fiscal responsibility with less taxation for all and less spending which is a pretty dang good platform element to start with and something the Dems and lots of Republicans do not seem to understand. This platform in fact works real well in Texas which has a budget surplus, better employment than most of the country and no state income tax....Mel
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Post by Toad on Apr 14, 2010 8:28:10 GMT -5
Sorry, what's a RINO?
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,466
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Post by Sabre52 on Apr 14, 2010 9:04:46 GMT -5
RINO was a term coined for folks like Ahhnold in California and McCain and stands for "Republican In Name Only", A supposed Republican who behaves and votes like Democrat....Mel
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Post by Toad on Apr 14, 2010 9:12:39 GMT -5
Thanks. So the elephants get help from the Rhinos on occasion.
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Post by parfive on Apr 14, 2010 11:58:16 GMT -5
Vampires and bloodsuckers, eh?
You ever hear of K Street? Hardly a ghetto slob in sight!!
So spare me your indignation about "corruption of the election process."
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,466
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Post by Sabre52 on Apr 14, 2010 14:03:22 GMT -5
Ah yes, K street. Home of the blood bank brokers of bribery and blood redistribution. Sure I heard of it *LOL*. I don't find it a matter for indignation but rather a matter for scientific curiosity about how a species apparently able to think could even tolerate such a situation. Corruption of the political system takes two groups. Those who are willing to pay folks for their votes and those who are willing to sell their votes for personal reward, high or low in social position. Or maybe three groups the third being those who are willing to overlook and do nothing about about such activities except whine about the inequities. I think maybe America is starting to wake up and that maybe, hopefully, in the future, some repair of the system will occur. If not, heck, I figure folks get the government they deserve and I'm an older feller anyway and have no kids and the future mess will become someone else's problem soon enough *S*....Mel
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