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Post by sandsman1 on Sept 22, 2010 17:58:02 GMT -5
I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December. I don't agree with Darwin , but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher taught his Theory of Evolution.
Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer before a football game. So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the entire Book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans going home from the game.
But it's a Christian prayer, some will argue.
Yes, and this is the United States of America and Canada and Australia, countries founded on Christian principles. According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1. So what would you expect -- somebody chanting Hare Krishna?
If I went to a football game in Jerusalem , I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer.
If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad , I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer.
If I went to a ping pong match in China , I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha.
And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one bit.
When in Rome .....
But what about the atheists? Is another argument.
What about them? Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the collection plate. Just humour us for 30 seconds. If that's asking too much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand. Call your lawyer!
Unfortunately, one or two will make that call. One or two will tell thousands what they can and cannot do. I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the world's foundations.
Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying.
God, help us. And if that last sentence offends you, well, just sue me.
The silent majority has been silent too long. It's time we tell that one or two who scream loud enough to be heard that the vast majority doesn't care what they want. It is time that the majority rules! It's time we tell them, "You don't have to pray; you don't have to say the Pledge of Allegiance; you don't have to believe in God or attend services that honour Him. That is your right, and we will honour your right; but you are no longer going to take our rights away. We are fighting back, and we WILL WIN!"
God bless us one and all...Especially those who denounce Him, God bless America, Canada and Australia, despite all our faults We are still the greatest nations of all. God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray and worship God.
Let's make ensure from now on the silent majority is heard and we put God back as the foundation of our families and institutions.
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Post by Toad on Sept 22, 2010 22:36:47 GMT -5
Amen, brother!
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Post by parfive on Sept 22, 2010 23:06:34 GMT -5
“Yes, and this is the United States of America and Canada and Australia, countries founded on Christian principles.”
Quite the odd trio rounded up here, whether you’re talkin’ football or Christian principles.
Two of ‘em allow gays to serve in the military, one don’t. Don’t matter how you cut it, somebody’s Christian principles are in need of a tune-up.
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Post by Toad on Sept 23, 2010 7:30:50 GMT -5
Try and stay on topic, this is about prayer
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agatemaggot
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Post by agatemaggot on Sept 23, 2010 8:56:03 GMT -5
I am with Sands,
I have had enough of the whiners and liberal courts telling the majority what they will and will NOT do.
Harley
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Sabre52
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Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
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Post by Sabre52 on Sept 23, 2010 9:14:25 GMT -5
It kind of pisses me off that while lots of checks were put in place in this country to prevent " the tyranny of the majority", now, thanks to outfits like the ACLU we all have to suffer under " the tyranny of the minority". As far as prayer goes, if you don't like it, don't do it or don't pay attention to it. It's not gonna bite you on the ass or physically cause you harm. I too am sick of these friggin whiners and their progressive lawyers telling the majority what they have to do.....Mel
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Post by frane on Sept 23, 2010 9:35:27 GMT -5
I totally agree with this. I am so tired of my rights being taken away and if anyone feels they are not when they eliminate prayers , well, they are wrong. In 1998 in a government office that I was in, one of the employee's would say a silent prayer before beginning work and again before eating her lunch at here desk. She had a 2x3 inch little prayer on her desk in her cubicle. Someone complained about her prayer on her desk and that she was praying in the office and they were offended. She was told to get rid of the prayer and to stop praying at her desk. It was even suggested that she could go into the restroom and say her prayer so she wouldn't offend anyone else in the office. She fought back then and their solution was to put a wall on her cubicle so people could not easily see her when she said her prayer...That was a travesty! Since then, I tend to get very irritated when I hear of prayers being stopped. It is respect for others that even an atheist should be able to understand. I respect that they do not have to believe in anything, they should respect that we have a right to say a prayer or a blessing. Fran
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Post by Donnie's Rocky Treasures on Sept 23, 2010 9:49:04 GMT -5
I agree! Let's keep on the subject of prayer! This is what this county is all about, without prayer & our Christian beliefs this country is sunk! Time to fight for our rights again!!!!
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Post by tanyafrench on Sept 23, 2010 11:53:42 GMT -5
Hallelujah Brother, Thank you for standing up for us Christians. My God does not call for wars against non-believers and no others should be telling us what to think or believe. Let the Majority rule for once please.
Praise God, Tanya
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Post by rockrookie on Sept 23, 2010 15:57:39 GMT -5
Amen !! what gets me ,is that the prayers before games . from my experience . are mainly for safety & injury -free game . and when an injury does occur . and we are waiting to see if it is serious .many people are praying weather noticable or not . try to stop that !! this is changing the subject slightly . in the few months after Sept 11 2001 . Prayer was everywhere . and not very many had the nerve to contest it then . how soon we forget !! --paul
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free4rms
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Post by free4rms on Sept 25, 2010 8:21:18 GMT -5
Hmmm, interesting posts here, but a bit confusing to me. I have a few questions to ask about several of the posts, so forgive me if I don't list the people posting one by one. I am wondering why some people think that Christians in particular are having their rights tromped on? The first amendment to the Constitution states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” This means that congress cannot establish any religion, not just the Christian religion. I believe that the reading of the first amendment implies and the intent is that no religion at all, not just Christians, can use tax supported facilities to promote their religion. By doing so, no one is given preferential treatment and no one group is being picked on. No religious group ever had the right to preferential treatment, so there were no rights to be taken away. And letting one group have ten minutes of prayer while other groups go to the bathroom is not a harmless little practice. It is offensive to other religions and non-religious people, too. Would Christians like it if a prayer (or equivalent) was given supporting satanists, or Wiccans, or someone who believes in killing infidels? Really… do you think they would be happy going to the concession stand? The only way to avoid problems like this is to keep all such activities out of state supported institutions. With everyone being treated equally in this fashion, no one is being stripped of any right or are told to stop praying. Anyone can pray anywhere they want to, just not in an organized fashion in a tax supported facility. I also wonder about the phrase you often hear that “America was founded on Christian principles”. What exactly are these principles and which ones are specifically Christian? Can anyone tell me? Are they written in the constitution somewhere? If by Christian principles one means ideas about morality, justice, proper social behavior and others, they are not unique to the Bible, but are also found in the teachings of other religions, and some much older than Christianity. And these favorable beliefs and behaviors are also taught, learned and practiced by non-religious people as well. And who did this “founding”? Our early, familiar historical figures at the time the Constitution was written? The main political players, thinkers, presidents? If so, then we are not talking about just Christians. If you take a look at the beliefs of these historical people, you will see that many of the significant players of the time were not Christians or did not limit their beliefs to Christianity. Many were deists, freemasons, even atheists. I also read posts from people who think that when it comes to religion in America that the majority rules. Where did that idea come from? Our country was not founded on some kind of contest where the team with the most players wins all. I thought that in this country, the idea was that all religions are to be treated equally, with no preferential treatment. Why can't we all just practice our religions or non-religions without incorporating them into the government? What's wrong with that? These are just a few of the questions this topic has raised for me and some thoughts I had on it. If there are some who think I have strayed off the subject of prayer, the original post did not deal with just prayer. It also dealt with the foundation of countries, which religion had the majority members, the theory of evolution, the supposed stripping of rights by courts, and more.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Sept 25, 2010 16:45:09 GMT -5
Vance: I know that is the standard boiler plate argument used by secularists etc to explain why folks can't pray. Heard it all before but what it amounts to is tyranny of the minority in which the majority of folks must suffer having their rights taken away so the few don't feel bad. Just like the little league folks who claim everyone has to have a trophy so "little Jimmie who don't know what end of the stick to hit the ball with" won't suffer from low self esteem and feel bad. Problem is, if most the taxpayers paying for public buildings, working in the offices etc, are not allowed their freedom of expression then their right to pray in buildings they helped pay for is being taken away because of a few complainers. I say let anyone who wishes to have a prayer in their preferred manner be allowed to do so. You say gee, because of a few folks, no one gets to pray period. Typical progressive reasoning like where, if most are successful and a few are not, lets take away from the successful and and using lowest common denominator type thinking, lets redistribute wealth so everyone is equally unsuccessful. Sorry, but to my way of thinking, that dog don't hunt and your arguments, though loved by secularists and lefties, are just an excuse for removing rights from everyone. Following your line of reasoning, if 90% of the population think we should not be able to rob banks and 10 % think we should, we'd have to have a law saying it's OK to rob banks so we don't hurt the feelings of the minority bank robbers. You see, in the case of law, there is a need for majority rule as that's freaking how laws work. Finally, getting back to prayer, I'm not so sure prayer which is a very personal thing is really promoting a religion. No one's asking to stand up a deliver a hour long sermon, just a brief moment to give personal thanks to the particular religious pantheon they believe in. I'm no longer very much into religion but when they give the prayer before our cowboy BBQ, I bow my head and allow others to pray because I respect the rights of of my fellow men and women. I don't act like a little wimp and cry, "Gee you guys are making me feel all excluded and weepy so's ya have to stop so my feelings aren't hurt!" *L*...Mel
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papat
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Post by papat on Sept 25, 2010 17:51:40 GMT -5
aman
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free4rms
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Post by free4rms on Sept 25, 2010 20:56:34 GMT -5
Nope, sorry Mel, this is not an argument used just by secularists, it was used by the men who wrote our constitution. And it is supported by many of the religious denominations in our country. This prayer argument is all about people who can't abide by our nations' laws in this case (and cry that they are being picked on) and who wish like hell they could figure out a way to get past that pesky amendment. I noticed in your slippery argument that you ignored the part of my post where I asked "what rights were taken away"? The constitution and no laws give you any of the rights you claim. By "rights" do you mean you can just make up your own rights and do not have to answer to the laws of our constitution? Those rights?? Heck, if those are the rules you make up and play by, then lets all join the sunnis and shiites and kill each other all day long. Or Irish protestants and catholics and murder each other in the streets. And, once again, I ask you.. where do you get the idea that no one can pray? Just because a person thinks his religion should be state supported, and the constitution stops him, he thinks he can't pray? Just what is it he does in the privacy of his own home, in his church, or anywhere in the entire world he happens to be? Just because he is not allowed to proselytize in government buildings does not mean he can't pray. Or maybe no one explained that to him. You say that in the case of the law, there is need for a majority rule. That's right... and the writers of our constitution voted as a majority to disallow establishing a national religion. If you can't live with that, form your own majority and see if you can get the first amendment repealed. I am so happy for you that when someone prays at a gathering, you are not offended. I am not either. But when someone does so at places the Supreme Court and many other courts have decided are out of bounds, I think that's not right. You may not think that to say that prayers based on a religion that says"Thou shalt have no other gods before me" is offensive, but if you do not believe in that particular god, it is highly offensive. But I don't act like I am being picked on when that happens, I just let the courts decide what is legal and what isn't. Unless and until the first amendment to the constitution is changed, that's good enough for me.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Sept 25, 2010 22:33:23 GMT -5
Vance: As usual we're never going to have the same take on anything, though it does tickle me seeing you support the constitution so avidly while the president you love so well regularly tramples it. Trying to guess what the founding fathers really intended is like trying to figure the meaning of an ancient scripture. The meaning can be warped by a particular judge's or preacher's take on the writings. I think the freedom of religion section of the first amendment guarantees two things 1. No state supported religion or preference of one over another and 2. the right of free exercise of your religion. I really don't think the founding fathers who simply didn't want the Church of England to be the states' only religion meant to say that to avoid offending folks like atheists we must have no religion at all in state or federal institutions because they were godly folks in those days. Especially, when by following this doctrine we exclude all religions thereby violating the second section of the law. And heck, in my opinion the supreme court screws up all the time. Just wait till the two new judges start messing with the constitution . How long have lawyers, politicians and judges been fighting over the second amendment when it was plainly put in place by the founding fathers primarily to make sure we were armed in case our own government gets out of hand. Glad to hear the constitutions is good enough for you Vance! Now write Obama, give him Hell, and tell him to start following it....Mel
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free4rms
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Post by free4rms on Sept 26, 2010 8:09:38 GMT -5
Nah, no thanks. I don't think I will get sidelined by joining your perpetual Obama bashing expedition. I only wanted to comment on the somewhat more limited issues in the original posts. But I will say that I don't think this prayer issue has anything whatsoever with offending or not offending anyone. And neither does the writing of the second amendment. It is ridiculous to think that any amendment would be written just as a feel good effort. I agree that the founders wanted to prevent the same restricted religious atmosphere from developing in this country, but I think they had the wisdom to know that in order to prevent this, the easiest thing to do was to prohibit the establishment of any religion as a state religion. And you are right, Mel. As usual, we rarely have the same views on most issues.
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Post by sandsman1 on Sept 27, 2010 6:36:56 GMT -5
im just wondering you dont have to answer if ya dont want to, but do you believe in god vance ?
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free4rms
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Post by free4rms on Sept 27, 2010 8:05:55 GMT -5
I will choose not to answer the question because that is a private matter and irrelevant to this discussion.
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chassroc
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Post by chassroc on Sept 27, 2010 9:24:35 GMT -5
I believe in Freedom of and from religion.
I don't want anyone trampling my rights by preventing me from practicing a religion or by forcing me into a religion or forcing me to practice a religion. If you are going to claim to stand for the Constitution, you should never exclude the founding fathers demand that this country be free of mandatory religion.
The thing I find most offensive is a practice that Politicians from both sides of the aisle feel is their right. Every speech includes "... and God Bless the United States of America". They use it when they make war as well as peace, when they are telling the truth and when they lie . How dare they presume that God is with us when innocents may be killed by their actions? How dare they presume to think that God is on their side, no matter what they do? I do not think that God talks only to Americans (and not to the other side). I do not think that God is a Democrat or a Republican , a Liberal or a Conservative. And I truly think the person that thinks they can conclusively determine that God is Mormon, or Born Again, Baptist or Congregational, Catholic or Lutheran, Presbyterian or Episcopalian, Greek Orthodox or Evangelical, etc or for that matter Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim is a seriously delusional human being.
And we all can evolve and change our thought process about religion and other matters over the years...When I was in Grammer School there was a boy in my class who was a Jehovah's Witness. This poor kid's faith prevented him from joining in on something(I think it was the one nation, UNDER GOD, but it might have been another prayer that he would not do. As a result, everyone treated him as an outsider. I thought, "If I was him I would just go along with what everyone else was doing" ...Now I understand why he did what he did and would defend his rights. I may not always agree with the ACLU but who else will protect and defend those who have unpopular beliefs.
Charlie
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Post by Toad on Sept 27, 2010 11:37:41 GMT -5
Don't worry, Charlie. The way this country is headed, Christians will be a minority needing protection from the ACLU. We'll see if they can stomach protecting our unpopular beliefs.
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