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Post by helens on May 21, 2012 1:57:47 GMT -5
I looked up Windmill bed just now... they have the same brown matrix as Richardson... EXCEPT there is yellow coloration sometimes around the center agate portion. You would not see that yellow by scratching the skin off.
While the same bed may differ in matrix coloration, it's not going to differ by much, since every egg formed in that bed typically formed in the same geological event. So in the case of matrix, unlike the patterns and colors within the center agate, it is a case of what you see is what you get. You can look at one and extrapolate that the other eggs found in the same bed will have a similar coloration. Is that wrong? Does the matrix color fluctuate wildly? Going back to the site I linked earlier, where the eggs found are grouped by beds they are found in... it is accurate. Every single matrix from the same bed are the same colors. NOT the centers of course.
Red is not yellow. And at first, I too thought it might be sulfur causing the color... maybe even a touch of sulfur with it changing to something else farther in... but the material itself in the very bottom that form the 'spokes' are yellow. So I tested it.
There is ZERO sulfur smell, which I just tested. I'm not talking about sniffing it, I'm talking about pushing very hard with pointed stainless steel jewelers pliers to try to dig a hole in it to expose fresh sulfur if any, then sniffing it.
The material inside is as hard as or harder than the stainless steel, I could not gouge a hole pushing as hard as I could. Stainless steel is 6.5 MOH, so that yellow sulfur would be harder than 6.5. Sulfur's MOH is 1.5-2, it should scratch out to sniff.
If it is a sulfide (lots of rocks have sulfide), it should have a lower MOH than steel (here's where I get fuzzy, have not studied geology). Did a quick search tho, and it yielded that rocks containing sulfides are colored BLACK. Reds and yellows are generally metal oxides or hydroxides.
Again, not saying it can't be a thunderegg, I just want to see a pinecone looking thunderegg with symetrical patterns like a pinecone, with a yellow and black matrix, with a smashed spot of pressure that shows a pinecone spike pattern identical to a smashed pinecone spot.
Then I want to buy it from you for the price of a thunderegg please, and I promise I will cut it open to see. If it's NOT a pinecone, I will cut mine open because you will have proven your point that it's possible.
If you can't find one at all with the above traits, then if this is a thunderegg, it's FAR rarer then a pinecone fossil, which I can find all over the internet, and worth MORE than a pinecone fossil.
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Post by helens on May 21, 2012 2:07:35 GMT -5
Your pictures do not show a yellow "matrix", but rather a yellow coating over what (judging by the chips) is a bluish or blackish core. The rhyolite matrix appears to be gray-brown. The exterior of your piece is absolutely nothing like the Araucaria cones in your links, nor does it resemble fir, pine and sequoia fossil cones from the U.S. What it does exactly resemble is a Priday thunderegg. The solution is simple: SLICE IT (it will retain any value, unless you plan passing it off to others as a fossil cone). Good points about it not resembling the Araucaria, it doesn't. I can't find a single pinecone it exactly resembles either, because I can't find a single pinecone that's 2/3 of the way opened like this is. The vast majority of pinecones I can find are not fully mature, and tightly shut. HOWEVER, the yellow does not appear to be a coating, because the spikes themselves are yellow. If you look at the black, it's not solid, it's interspersed all throughout the yellow, with one small concentrated area of black. HOWEVER, I can't say it's not actually black further in... it's remotely possible. So lets assume it is. Show me a Richardson thunder egg with a black matrix and a yellow skin over it please. Either one, yellow with black bits matrix, or black with yellow skin matrix.
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Post by helens on May 21, 2012 2:16:18 GMT -5
I was going to slice it. But I already told Jakesrocks he can have first dibs on it once we figure out actual value, then discount the value for him. If he finds that acceptable, the pinecone is his. HE wants it whole, so we are going to establish this if possible whole. I WILL NOT sell him a pinecone that might be a thunderegg, even if he agrees to it. If you guys are persuasive enough that Jakesrocks says, oh heck with it, cut it, then I'll cut it:). But you're not yet persuading me, because no one has shown me a pix of a pinecone looking thunderegg with a yellow matrix with black spots, AND cut it open to be sure that THEY didn't sell a $1000 pinecone for the price of a $5 thunderegg. And I have to tell you... I have seen a WHOLE BUNCH of DEFINITELY thunderegg looking pinecones that do not resemble my pinecone, they resemble thundereggs... selling for $30-$50 a slice because cut open... lo... seeds.... now it's worth $500 because they got 10 skinny slices for a $5 nondescript egg. Look at this listing. Bet that guy bought a thunderegg, cut it in half and screamed... SCORE!!! Doesn't look ANYTHING like a pinecone from the outside: www.ebay.com/itm/SiS-AMAZING-FOSSIL-LARGE-Polished-Petrified-Pinecone-/390419486261?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae6d09635His $5 very ugly and not pinecone-like thunderegg is now worth $129.
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Post by helens on May 21, 2012 6:12:11 GMT -5
I dont have an encylopedic knowledge of thunderegg beds... all I know is that your pictures clearly show a thunderegg. the concentric rings are partially formed eggs. did you find it mowing your neighbor's lawn? Excuse me?
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Post by jakesrocks on May 21, 2012 8:23:36 GMT -5
Helen, one way to settle this once and for all. Take that piece to a local university and have them look at it. Just for the record, I'm still convinced that you have a pine cone. Somewhere around here I have a few T-eggs with the same outer coloring, but not the radiating internal structure, or the overlapping scale appearance. For those who are convinced that this piece is a T-egg, remember that most of what you see for sale on the internet has been professionally cleaned and prepared for sale at max dollar amount. Go to this link. The first pic shows cleaned specimens. The second pic shows them as found. www.westerncoloradopublishing.com/Fossil_Wood_Collection.html
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rockhound97058
freely admits to licking rocks
Thundereggs - Oregons Official State Rock!
Member since January 2006
Posts: 760
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Post by rockhound97058 on May 21, 2012 10:28:59 GMT -5
What rocks2dust posted is in fact a Thundereggs, however his photo only shows the agate"core" with no matrix attached. This is very common in Thundereggs. I will take some photo's today and share some other Thundereggs.
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Fossilman
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,688
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Post by Fossilman on May 21, 2012 10:30:18 GMT -5
In my honest opinion,it doesn't look like a pine cone....Ebay has prehistoric pine cones on their sight,all looking different than the photo you have..... There is one way to find out what you have,that is to cut it.....pine cones have a distinct pattern inside.... Either egg or cone,or as one said agate,I bet the pattern inside is really awesome!
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Post by rockpickerforever on May 21, 2012 10:33:16 GMT -5
You clearly love to argue for the sake of argument. This time, you are backing the wrong horse. I believe only one other person has agreed with you, everyone else believes it is a thunderegg. If you want to settle it, cut it open.
If you want people to ID your finds, don't ask for help and then argue with other's opinions. Not everyone likes to argue as much as you do. You will soon find that nobody will even respond to your pleas for help. Just my opinion... Jean
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Don
Cave Dweller
He wants you too, Malachi.
Member since December 2009
Posts: 2,616
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Post by Don on May 21, 2012 10:36:05 GMT -5
I dont have an encylopedic knowledge of thunderegg beds... all I know is that your pictures clearly show a thunderegg. the concentric rings are partially formed eggs. did you find it mowing your neighbor's lawn? Excuse me? obscure reference to an ongoing joke in another forum... gemstone.smfforfree4.com/index.php/topic,10223.0/topicseen.html I still say it's a thunderegg.
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rockhound97058
freely admits to licking rocks
Thundereggs - Oregons Official State Rock!
Member since January 2006
Posts: 760
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Post by rockhound97058 on May 21, 2012 11:53:23 GMT -5
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2012 12:01:48 GMT -5
Just for the sake of education, here are some examples that mirror the features in your pictures. I don't have a fancy photo setup, so please excuse the cloudy-day lighting. First are 2 thundereggs that show the foliate/petal formations on their outer shells, which are visible in your photos and which are not "petals": This is the bottom of a cracked Priday egg (Blue Bed) showing the yellow opal layer just under the "black" interior: Again, the radiating pattern with a central nub in your pictures is exactly what you find at the bottom of many Priday eggs: Finally, and a dead giveaway, the network of fine lines on the top of your egg is completely typical for Priday eggs. Those are pressure lines in rhyolite, and you don't find them on fossil pinecones, which formed in a very different manner: Perhaps others will have better pictures of Priday/Richardson eggs similar to yours. Modified: I see that rockhound97058 just posted more great examples. They aren't all that uncommon.
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Post by rockpickerforever on May 21, 2012 12:28:34 GMT -5
My last contribution to this thread Back (bottom?) side of the first of the two rocks I posted yesterday - black and yellow? I didn't post the bottom side then, as at the time, you were more interested in the smooth ("not scratchy") outer side. Pictured dry Wet All the wishing in the world will not make this a pinecone
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Fossilman
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,688
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Post by Fossilman on May 21, 2012 12:34:58 GMT -5
Looks settled to me!!!Nice pics you have there "rockpickerforever"....!
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Post by helens on May 21, 2012 13:03:11 GMT -5
Just for the sake of education, here are some examples that mirror the features in your pictures. I don't have a fancy photo setup, so please excuse the cloudy-day lighting. First are 2 thundereggs that show the foliate/petal formations on their outer shells, which are visible in your photos and which are not "petals": This is the bottom of a cracked Priday egg (Blue Bed) showing the yellow opal layer just under the "black" interior: Again, the radiating pattern with a central nub in your pictures is exactly what you find at the bottom of many Priday eggs: Finally, and a dead giveaway, the network of fine lines on the top of your egg is completely typical for Priday eggs. Those are pressure lines in rhyolite, and you don't find them on fossil pinecones, which formed in a very different manner: Perhaps others will have better pictures of Priday/Richardson eggs similar to yours. Modified: I see that rockhound97058 just posted more great examples. They aren't all that uncommon. These pix do resemble the outside. The inside color on mine looks black, not blue, but that could be the lighting also. I have one question, have you cut it open to see what was in there?
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Post by helens on May 21, 2012 13:39:04 GMT -5
So... all this is about trying to figure out how much money you are going to make off another member of this forum?? Go take your rocks to a geologist and pay for a formal written geologic certification... and then handle this deal privately. You are relatively new to this forum. The members here have earned the respect they deserve. I advise you to think long and hard about what this forum is really about. It is not about what you can get out of other members, or how you can get the most out of other members... or how you can get exactly what you want out of other people. I'm curious, how many forums have you belonged to before you joined here? Jo, if you read the posts, you will see that I want to cut it open to settle things. But Don wrote me offering to buy it, and he doesn't want it cut open. 'Make money off of someone on the forum"? I have not only not made money off a SINGLE person on this forum, I have bent over backwards to give people more than they gave me, unless they shipped after me, where I had no control over what I was getting. I wanted to ensure that not one person on this forum could EVER say what you just said to me, and here's someone I've never dealt with personally saying it to me. I would not 'cheat' anyone, let alone Don who JUST generously shipped a donation to the Newbie box. I can't think of another person 'luckier' than I am in this life, and I believe it's simply good karma. I don't try to take advantage of ANYONE I deal with. And given that I've had dealings with multiple people on this forum, I challenge ANYONE whom I have 'sold' a SINGLE THING to to step forward. I challenge ANYONE who's done a trade with me and feels I mistreated them to step forward, and there are close to a dozen people I've traded with here. Since you can insult me so directly, perhaps you should start a thread asking people if I've cheated ANYONE they know of on planet earth. My REAL NAME is on my forum account, and ALL OVER my website, I have NEVER been anonymous, and if you google me, you'll come up with thousands of references that go back to the very beginning of the public internet itself. I hand wrote my first website in 1999 in html, on options trading. I know how I treat others, so I never need to worry about people knowing who I am. First and last name, City, State, Zip. If I didn't mind more spam or telemarketers, I'd post my mailing address, tho it's not hard to find in 10 seconds online with all the other information. To spend NO time looking someone up and then just blabbing out such an insult is unbelievable to me. If the thing is a thunderegg, I'm not selling it at all to anyone, because the most it would be worth selling for is $5, because that's all a thunderegg is worth to me, and I'll keep it. That's trying NOT to Cheat Don, because I won't sell it for $5, and I won't cheat him selling it as a pinecone either. It was collected by an old rockhound who traveled the entire country collecting and is the oldest living member of our 50 YEAR OLD Central Florida Mineral and Gem Society. He's been a member of the club for nearly 50 years, but can no longer attend functions. I'd guess he was close to 90 years old from talking to him. He's been hounding for more than 50 years. He had to sell his personal collection of fossils, which you'd know from reading the other thread. The ONLY reason I bought his fossils was because I wanted to help him, and no other reason. But I spent bill money to do it, so I need to recoup that money. And no, not on members of this forum. I saw this as a way to do something nice for the members on this forum originally. If I got my money back on Ebay, I'd have the flexibility to GIVE the remaining fossils away, or do a $1/piece starting auction. You have changed my mind, I had NO idea that people perceived me as that kind of person on this forum, it's been educational to ask a simple question. Which rock forums I have belonged to? Exactly 2. Gemstone forum, where 1/2 the people here post, and you can review my 50 posts if you'd like, name Helens. Opalauctions forum, which I expanded from. I have time for 1 forum, and I liked this forum because you could be open and blunt without censorship. I prefer the ability to be honest, and even for people to get ugly, like you are. Several of the people on the Opalsauctions forum are also members of this one, they joined shortly after I did, because not everyone is just interested in opals. I have answered your question completely. I have never posted to a single other rock forum ever in my entire life, or even knew ANYTHING about rocks or semi-precious stones before November 2011, although I knew quite a bit about precious gemstones before that. I obviously know a lot about glass, besides working in it myself, I have an extensive collection of perfume bottles that are linked to the IPBA and still referenced by the international perfume bottle association. What other rock forums do YOU belong to, and what gives you the right to say something so rude to someone, simply for trying to ascertain the truth of this question for the BENEFIT of the person who wanted to buy it? Or is it only you who have the right to ask rude questions, but not answer any?
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Post by helens on May 21, 2012 14:02:10 GMT -5
Fossilman, we figured that out, Pat told me it was baculite, I confirmed it as baculite by looking up all the photos, and I thanked her in the thread already.
I did not say that the fossils were correctly labeled. Keeping in mind that this guy collected most of them decades ago, where there were far fewer books for ID, and no internet to look things up, he could make mistakes. People IDing things today make mistakes. The greatest authorities on the planet for a given thing can make an ID mistake. Not even science is immune from mistakes.
That's why I would like the experts to weigh in on whether this could be a pinecone. If I accepted his label of 'petrified pine cone' at face value, I would not need to ask the question or drive for the truth of it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2012 14:03:02 GMT -5
I have one question, have you cut it open to see what was in there? Fresh from the saw, the first Priday egg shown in that series of photos: There is always the possibility that the yellow migrated up into the agate interior to form a plume or some other formation that could vault the egg into valuable gem category. Those are one out of every couple of hundred eggs, though. The rest can still be collectable, though those with plain agate or simple water level banding are at the low end of the price scale.
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Post by helens on May 21, 2012 14:10:47 GMT -5
Thank you Rockstodust, I will cut it open soon then. That egg looks darn close to the outside of mine. I may have to take it to the club to do it, because I'm not sure my little saw can do it in 1 pass. If it IS a thunderegg, I hope my inside isn't as plain looking as yours. I will post photos when it's cut:).
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snuffy
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Member since May 2009
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Post by snuffy on May 21, 2012 18:53:57 GMT -5
obscure reference to an ongoing joke in another forum... gemstone.smfforfree4.com/index.php/topic,10223.0/topicseen.html I still say it's a thunderegg.[/quote] Hey,I see yall got a dose of the WIZARD on the other site ;D ;D I see he is up to his old deleting post tricks.About time he shows up here again,for the 3rd or 4th time.Although his posts would be a breath of fresh air from some stale ones put up here.
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sticksinstones
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since February 2012
Posts: 117
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Post by sticksinstones on May 22, 2012 0:12:16 GMT -5
Well rats, I missed a lot of fun it looks like!
The last series of photos should have settled it though. The stone is definitely a thunderegg and the exterior matrix is typical of several beds in central Oregon on or around Richardson's Ranch. My money would be on Blue Bed simply because that is the bed that I have had the most trouble with eggs that lose their caps when they sit around in the weather for very long. That's what happened to this one. The yellow you see isn't the matrix of the egg at all, it's a thin band of a yellowish green opal like muddy stuff that sits between the agate lens and the bottom "belly button" side cap. I'm sure a better geologist could name it, but as a guy who cuts a lot of eggs and almost as many cones I can assure you that it's not even a particularly unusual egg. If you look at the vertical cut in your first posted thunderegg photo you can see that "belly button" in the bottom center of the blue agate lens - that's the round spot with the radiating lines in the bottom center of the blue lens in your photo, just cut the other direction.
As to value they are dug in the rough at something like 55 cents per lb. the last time I did it (a few years ago) and the ones with the caps missing would normally get tossed in the pit and not get hauled out (though the agate can still be worth cutting). Even grading this way, the eggs I have sitting around in the weather end up with a pretty high percentage of them softening up in this gunk layer and the cap falls off (the layer is water porous at a minimum and might even be partly soluble - you should be able to pick it off in flakes with a pin until you get down to mostly dark blue agate - which can certainly appear black in some lenses).
Now the good news is that if you really want a cone, I have a bunch of them that aren't going to be good cutting specimens but are still very interesting fossils and I'd be happy to make you a deal on one. Oh... that was my listing on eBay for the large polished cone half and I assure you I didn't buy that rough for $5 :-)
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