sheltie
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since January 2012
Posts: 982
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Post by sheltie on May 15, 2013 8:02:36 GMT -5
In early March of this year I was slabbing a piece of agate when all of I sudden there was a terrible noise and I shut off the saw immediately. There was a chunk gone from the teeth of my Barranca Diamond 301 blade (I wrote about this here in early March. I emailed BD with photos and they pretty much blew me off by saying stuff happens. Several folks on various forums disagreed while one or two others said that it could happen, so I decided to take my lumps and buy another one.
Since I bought my saw new from HP I decided to seek their help. To make a long story short, I was shortly told that BD would replace my saw. They have not as yet and now it seems that they never really promised to do that at all and the owner of HP was just trying (and is still trying) to get BD to do the right thing and replace it and may have jumped the gun.
Last Friday it happened again. This time I was slabbing a piece of rhyolite and when I finished (no noise this time). When the slab was done I opened the saw and there was a piece missing again from the teeth. EXACTLY the same as the first time.
I can ALMOST understand such an instance happening to a five month old blade (but not really) but the same thing happening to a new two month old blade, from the same lot of blades? Get real!
Once again, HP is giving me a new blade to replace the busted one (I had to buy a new one last time but that's the one BD is "going to replace".
I know of one other person within the past couple of weeks who has had the same problem and was wondering is anyone else has as well?
I'm inclined to give BD and HP sufficient time to straighten this out for me. However, at the end of that yet to be determined time, I may take BD to small claims court for reimbursement of my cost for their deficient blades.
Any comments?
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Post by deb193redux on May 15, 2013 10:53:38 GMT -5
It must be very frustrating. It also does look suspicious against BD.
I think to win in small claims court, you would need some sort of evidence of defect beyond circumstance. For example, a metallurgy report showing a bad temper or tensile strength or even unacceptable impurities in the metal. OR a list of dozens of others that has very similar problems with blades from that batch/factory.
The other person might help your case because that was a different person and a different saw. I think the 1st thing a lawyer would ask is how is it known that it is not something you do, or something defective about your saw. I'm just saying what they would say to point out reasonable doubt.
I think it would also cost you more to go to the court, although filing the claim might get BD to respond. All BD would have to do is file for jurisdiction to be reassigned to their location, and you would have travel expenses to boot.
Also, if I follow, your 1st blade was OEM, and the 2nd bought online. If you did not actually buy it in Texas (i.e., they collected Texas sales tax) I think the jurisdiction you would need to file is where the sale took place,i.e., BD's sales office, or their distributor's sales office.
Still, it sure sucks. I would be cussing so loud it would raise the roof on my garage.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2013 11:06:46 GMT -5
I would start by filing a claim with the BBB. I have had multiple disputes resolved the minute the BBB contacts the business.
Good luck,
Tim
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2013 12:58:17 GMT -5
BBB could work. But only if the seller feels responsible after they get the letter.
Credit Card chargeback is another angle. May or may not work. Specially on the two month old blade. You got 90 days to chargeback.
Small claims is usually he said she said and whomever has more evidence and/or credibility with the judge gets the win.
Or, if I read it correctly they are fixing the problem by replacing blade?
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Charles
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since May 2012
Posts: 161
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Post by Charles on May 15, 2013 15:14:50 GMT -5
In most small claims courts lawyers are to allowed. You also don't need all the tons of evidence as you do in a normal court. Also you can't change the venue.
Disclaimer I am not a lawyer, I also do not play one on TV.
Charles
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Post by deb193redux on May 15, 2013 15:21:03 GMT -5
I follow Charles' point, but I am not sure if you have the jurisdiction. see www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/small-claims-book/chapter9-2.htmlWhere/how was the blade bought? i.e., where did you do business with them. Who did you do business with BD or a distributor? Remember their website sales route you to a distributor. Also I an not sure "injury" or "breach of contract" covers defective product.
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Post by deb193redux on May 15, 2013 15:24:27 GMT -5
also see www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/small-claims-book/chapter21-7.html"As with face-to-face disputes, your ability to sue in small claims court for a wrong you suffered via an Internet transaction depends on where the person or business you want to sue is located. You cannot automatically sue someone in small claims court when you have suffered an economic loss. The court has to have power over that particular party, which basically depends on where the person or business lives, works, or has an office. If your Internet-related dispute is with a person or business located in your state, then you shouldn't have a problem. However, only under specific circumstances can you sue a nonresident in your state's small claims court."
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sheltie
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since January 2012
Posts: 982
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Post by sheltie on May 15, 2013 15:35:07 GMT -5
Also, if I follow, your 1st blade was OEM, and the 2nd bought online. If you did not actually buy it in Texas (i.e., they collected Texas sales tax) I think the jurisdiction you would need to file is where the sale took place,i.e., BD's sales office, or their distributor's sales office. quote]
1st blade was the BD301 which came with the saw, but I had to pay for it (it wasn't included in the price of the saw. The second was identical and bought from the owner of HP (he lives 20 miles from me). I paid Texas sales tax on both.
Naturally, I'd rather not have this go to litigation at all. In my day (doesn't that expression make you feel old ;D) the good name of a business meant a great deal to them. Now maybe not so much.
I picked up my NEXT new blade this morning and had an interesting fact pointed out to me. The original blades were a one piece blade, i.e., the teeth and the rest of the blade were all one piece with the diamonds "drilled" into pockets of the edge of the blade. I was shown one that is over 20 years old and is still going strong. The current blades are apparently two pieces, i.e., the "primary" part of the blade and the outermost edge which includes the "teeth" where the diamonds are. That is where both my blades failed. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand where the fault lies.
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sheltie
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since January 2012
Posts: 982
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Post by sheltie on May 15, 2013 15:36:18 GMT -5
BBB could work. But only if the seller feels responsible after they get the letter. Credit Card chargeback is another angle. May or may not work. Specially on the two month old blade. You got 90 days to chargeback. Small claims is usually he said she said and whomever has more evidence and/or credibility with the judge gets the win. Or, if I read it correctly they are fixing the problem by replacing blade? They haven't yet and I'm not holding my breath at this time.
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sheltie
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since January 2012
Posts: 982
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Post by sheltie on May 15, 2013 15:39:10 GMT -5
I should've added in my OP that I checked the warranty for blades that BD makes and they have a one year warranty. I already know they don't honor that because I tried with the first blade. I just chalked it up eventually to rub of the green, so to speak. I won't make that mistake again.
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Post by phil on May 15, 2013 16:55:21 GMT -5
Are you sure that there isn't something wrong with your saw? The odds of two successive blade both failing like that are immense... You might be able to take both blades and broken pieces to a GOOD welding shop and asking them to braze them back together. Of course, I'd be checking for cracks and etc first. Failure to live up to the warranty is usually a court action, regardless of where and etc. Get your lawyer to send them a Notice of Intent to Sue for both blades, and you might find them real friendly again. That's my 2 cents worth, and worth every penny! <grin> Other than that, Good Luck!
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Post by johnjsgems on May 15, 2013 17:37:12 GMT -5
I've tried to stay out of this because I sell 301 blades. A lot of 301 blades. I've broken a chunk out of a rim while removing a saw table on a trim saw and have had a couple of customers damage the blade the same way. I've never had a slab saw customer with this problem unless a rock came loose in the vise while cutting. I would suspect some issue with your carriage or feed to have this happen twice. Very unlikely you would receive two defective blades. As far as the small claims thing, you can only file against a business in the state they do business. So, for BD/MK in CA. You could sue John Rowland as he is the blade supplier and in TX. Maybe a one piece Chinese blade would be better for you and your saw. I can't tell you how many forum members buy 301, 303C, and 303S blades from me but all are made the same way with the sintered rim laser welded robotically to a high carbon tool steel rim. I've never had any separate due to a manufacturer defect. And Phil, the warranty doesn't cover abuse or carelessness and the rim damage looks like that in pictures I've seen. The only way to get a warranty would be if it could be proved defective which would not be easy. Even harder with a second failure.
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sheltie
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since January 2012
Posts: 982
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Post by sheltie on May 15, 2013 18:28:15 GMT -5
John, I'm glad you weighed in because I value your judgement. Right now too much emphasis is being placed on legal matters and that's my fault for bringing it up. If I don't get what I consider to be a reasonable solution to my problem, then I would go that route. In the meantime, Sherman Rowland is working with BD to rectify the problem. And it IS a problem, unrelated to the saw. How do I know that? Because I just had one of John's friends who works with him to my place to fix a set screw (yeah, I know, a simple thing but not when you don't know what you are doing ;D) and he checked the saw out to see if there was anything else that needed attention. Everything else is fine. So I'm confident that the saw is working properly. Also FWIW, when the blade has all its' teeth (sorry for being sarcastic ), the cut is excellent. It's true and smooth every time. The fact that at least one other person recently has had the same problem confirms to me that BD had a problem with one "batch" of blades. I no longer think that it could've been a fluke that I have two busted blades. I have no clue how you could see from the picture I posted a couple months ago (the one from this past week is nearly identical) that I somehow abused or misused the blade or in anyway have been careless. As far as I know, and it's been confirmed by HP folks and others, I do everything by the book. I'm really anal in that regard. When I don't know how to do something, I'm unafraid to ask someone who knows how. I've done that with you several times on different subjects. If proving a defect is hard after two occurances, does that mean that it would be even harder after three times or even more, by different people? To me, that screams of a problem inherent in the manufacture of a product. Again, I appreciate your comments and will discuss them with John Rowland when he returns from China. I'm sure he values your opinion as well as I do. Denny
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Post by johnjsgems on May 15, 2013 18:55:08 GMT -5
Denny, you misunderstood me. I meant to say the picture you sent me (the first blade) looked just like they do if abused (like I've done myself by accident) not that you abused it. Proving it isn't abuse would be hard by the picture. The Rowlands should be able to find out through BD/MK if they have had issues like this. Like I said, I have not had a customer with the same issue.
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Post by deb193redux on May 15, 2013 21:20:22 GMT -5
John echos my point. It is not what you suspect, but what you can prove. To prove the matter only with numbers (or people/blades) it would take more than two or ten. (Look how many cars have to fail before there is a recall.)
The situation sucks, but unless there is a lot number, I do not even think you can prove the blades were from the same batch.
I think you would have to bring the local Texas guy to small claims court, and he has been fairly good to you. I do not think the local court would have jurisdiction over out of state BD.
Maybe try a one-piece blade. The diamonds were not "drilled" but rather rolled or crimped into the notches on the rim. I only echo John's suggestion here because you have had rim problems on two successive blades.
The desirable properties of the steel that makes a strong core (very hard), and the desirable properties of the steel that rapidly exposes new diamond for hard rock cutting (softer) are not the same. The flexibility offered by sintered rims is considered very advantageous by the diamond blade industry - not just BD. This is a carefully and intentionally developed process, not some cheaper modern manufacturing technique as you imply.
I would continue to press for a replacement. I would continue to urge the HP guy to lobby on your behalf.
But I do not think you can sufficiently (to a legal standard) prove what you assert, and I do not think that this is beyond coincidence or circumstance of your saw. Two is damm suspicious, but is far far from a statistical certainty.
I think trying a carbon steel notched rim blade might be a good idea.
Sorry that you have had these difficulties.
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riverbendlapidary
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2006
Posts: 1,058
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Post by riverbendlapidary on May 15, 2013 22:49:21 GMT -5
Never seen this happen with USA blades, but they are making them in Korea now so who knows... What size is your saw? See if you can find a NOS or used blade on ebay or craigslist. MK, Congo (made by MK), Star Diamond, Old Raytech, Old Lortone, Old Felker blades and Vanguard Interlock Blades were all really good blades.
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sheltie
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since January 2012
Posts: 982
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Post by sheltie on May 16, 2013 8:36:50 GMT -5
John and Daniel,
Thanks for your comments and advice. I'll see where the process between HP and BD carries us and hope for the best. I've made them aware of your comments regarding the possibility of the saw as well and the fellow I spoke with - neither of the Rowlands - disagrees in my case.
I will say this, I will never buy another BD blade again, despite knowing the reputation is has. It's a lot easier on the wallet to pay $100 a blade than it is $300 or so. I'd been told that a blade would last for years and yet I've had two that lasted much less, one for about five months, the other two. Since I don't sell anything I do (that may change in the future) and am a hobbyist in the purest sense, it's getting difficult to justify to myself the spending of several thousand dollars a year of anything lapidary simply to satisfy an obsession. I quit playing golf (which is a VERY expensive hobby) because of health reason and started this hobby. The expense is rapidly catching up. If I added in things such as transportation expenses, it would be ridiculous.
None of which has anything to do with the blades, but you probably get my drift anyway. ;D
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Post by johnjsgems on May 16, 2013 10:13:03 GMT -5
It is funny to me but while at Quartzsite I sell the expensive BD/MK blades and the Aussie behind me sells super cheap Chinese blades. I have people buy my blades and say they hated the Chinese blades and will never buy another. I hear a number of people that say they only use the Chinese blades and they work great. Go figure.
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sheltie
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since January 2012
Posts: 982
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Post by sheltie on May 16, 2013 16:16:32 GMT -5
It is funny to me but while at Quartzsite I sell the expensive BD/MK blades and the Aussie behind me sells super cheap Chinese blades. I have people buy my blades and say they hated the Chinese blades and will never buy another. I hear a number of people that say they only use the Chinese blades and they work great. Go figure. I've heard the same thing many times. But I've come to the conclusion that if - for any reason - I'm going to eat blades, I'd rather do it at $100 per rather than $300+. ;D
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Post by johnjsgems on May 16, 2013 18:53:14 GMT -5
And you could be a happy member of the Chinese crimp rim team. One thing I can guarantee is the rim won't break off. I can also guarantee it will be noisier when cutting.
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