jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 10, 2014 16:26:18 GMT -5
I understand James and I don't have a specific answer to your precise analysis & wonderment but I will throw this out and let you all interpret as you might at the quantum level there will always be fuzziness Ain't no biggie Ed. Just food for thought. Before the fuzziness gets to thick in the nuero sector.
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Post by mohs on Oct 10, 2014 16:52:56 GMT -5
ha ha I definitely have fuzziness in synapse sectors mohs
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Post by Starguy on Oct 10, 2014 16:57:15 GMT -5
jamespMy guess is that your obsidian is so round that they are rolling down the face of the tumbling mass instead of sliding. That causes everything to get beat up a little and obsidian is prone to chipping / divoting. I've always had problems when I had too many spherical pieces in the batch. I don't have any great recommendations. All I can suggest is reduce the rolling pieces, or thicken the slurry. You our should be able to identify the rolling pieces because they will be more beat up than the flatter pieces. Rolling causes them to crash into everything while the flatter pieces are sliding at least part of the time. hope this helps Brent
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 10, 2014 17:09:33 GMT -5
jamespMy guess is that your obsidian is so round that they are rolling down the face of the tumbling mass instead of sliding. That causes everything to get beat up a little and obsidian is prone to chipping / divoting. I've always had problems when I had too many spherical pieces in the batch. I don't have any great recommendations. All I can suggest is reduce the rolling pieces, or thicken the slurry. You our should be able to identify the rolling pieces because they will be more beat up than the flatter pieces. Rolling causes them to crash into everything while the flatter pieces are sliding at least part of the time. hope this helps Brent All went well as far as the overall tumble. There was 35% filler in with them. Divot wear pattern buffaloed me. The lack of scratches as mentioned, makes sense with rounder stones. A mass of balls rolling and not sliding. But with perfection, heck of a constant frost pattern in the finer grits. At least they finished w/out frost bruises. I wondered about those star garnets you tumble being effected by their roundness.
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Post by mohs on Oct 10, 2014 17:09:40 GMT -5
Howdy James This is question I haven't got an answer for I bet you know
What the difference between silicon carbide & industrial diamond? More specifically as it applies to grinding belts
I know that that S/C is man made. I suppose industrial diamond could be either. & the industrial diamond is harder than S/C.
Do you know what the diamonds belts are made from? I'm talking about those more expensive graded belts The most fine grade S/C belt I use is 600grit
Are those 1200 grit belts (and higher) industrial diamond or just S/C graded finer ? thanks Ed
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 10, 2014 17:10:31 GMT -5
ha ha I definitely have fuzziness in synapse sectors mohs You sharp as a tack Ed.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 10, 2014 17:18:29 GMT -5
Howdy James This is question I haven't got an answer for I bet you know What the difference between silicon carbide & industrial diamond? More specifically as it applies to grinding belts I know that that S/C is man made. I suppose industrial diamond could be either. & the industrial diamond is harder than S/C. Do you know what the diamonds belts are made from? I'm talking about those more expensive graded belts The most fine grade S/C belt I use is 600grit Are those 1200 grit belts (and higher) industrial diamond or just S/C graded finer ? thanks Ed Diamond is a heck of a lot harder. That I know. I am versed w/SiC and AO. Not so much diamond except King Kong dry diamonds . And those take serious abuse. If the belt has a grit designation I would say it is as specified. SiC or diamond. But not sure. Like cab wheels.
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Post by mohs on Oct 10, 2014 18:29:39 GMT -5
right on james
I assuming that the Nova and belts are actually industrial diamond yes it and that would be harder surface
I suppose my question is: why don’t they make s/c products in finer grits?
They grind as efficient as diamonds for most material> And if it is cheaper to produce why doesn’t some one make products finer that 600 grit in s/c ? Its seem like the products would be less expensive.
I was thinking maybe s/c can’t be graded/crushed smaller than a certain grade? Seems like diamond can be made infinitely tiny. Maybe silicon carbide can’t?
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 10, 2014 18:54:37 GMT -5
Ed SiC has too many shark's teeth. AO is rounder and does no break down into smaller sharks teeth. Instead, AO gets rounder and smoother. Not sure how diamonds abrade. SiC stands for 'shark incisor cream'
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Post by Starguy on Oct 10, 2014 19:08:35 GMT -5
All went well as far as the overall tumble. There was 35% filler in with them. Divot wear pattern buffaloed me. The lack of scratches as mentioned, makes sense with rounder stones. A mass of balls rolling and not sliding. But with perfection, heck of a constant frost pattern in the finer grits. At least they finished w/out frost bruises. I wondered about those star garnets you tumble being effected by their roundness. jamespRolling stones in the tumble was always a problem with star garnets. You can always tell the trouble makers AFTER the polish which is a pain in the @$$. You almost need to get rid of them then go back to 220 grit. If you don't get rid of the rollers, the whole batch will look slightly frosted. With garnets I had a good mix of sizes. It seems like most obsidian / Apache tear tumbles seem to be made up of similar sized stones. I always tried to maintain a good mix of sizes. That seemed to reduce but not eliminate the rollers. You our might be able to add some crushed glass to the tumble to add some size variety to your tumble. Obsidian is tough stuff. Later Brent
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Post by mohs on Oct 10, 2014 19:45:27 GMT -5
Thanks James !
That diagram explains a lot I believe diamond is basically cubic so that would explain its tendency to grade fine
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Post by mohs on Oct 10, 2014 19:51:19 GMT -5
do you think James the 30 grit Shark incisor carbide poked those divots?
and isn't most tumbling polish aluminum oxide that structure might be more conducive to gentler material removal that might explain a certain amount....
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 10, 2014 21:23:18 GMT -5
do you think James the 30 grit Shark incisor carbide poked those divots? and isn't most tumbling polish aluminum oxide that structure might be more conducive to gentler material removal that might explain a certain amount.... It darn sure looked like the 220 AO completely removed the deep pits from the 30 SiC Ed. Both photos same magnification. After 30 grit: after 220 grit:
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Post by Pat on Oct 10, 2014 21:32:13 GMT -5
jamesp your photos are the best photos I've seen showing the work of the grit progression.
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Post by mohs on Oct 11, 2014 0:46:09 GMT -5
grit structure profile could explain a lot
I really like the S/C green wheels for rough grinding they are very efficient at removing stock
but if its structure is gnarly like the diagram depicts then that would be bad for the finer grits
I like to see a diagram of what industrial diamond grit structure profile looks look likes. It might more resemble the aluminum profile.
I’ve never used the finer grit diamond belts but after this discussion I’m more inclined to upgrade. I assume Nova wheels use industrial grade diamonds So in theory it should be comparable.
I was always somewhat confused on the difference between s/c and diamond. Besides the hardness factor-- if the grit profile is vastly different --- it could make quite a difference in the smoothing operation.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 11, 2014 6:31:35 GMT -5
grit structure profile could explain a lot I really like the S/C green wheels for rough grinding they are very efficient at removing stock but if its structure is gnarly like the diagram depicts then that would be bad for the finer grits I like to see a diagram of what industrial diamond grit structure profile looks look likes. It might more resemble the aluminum profile. I’ve never used the finer grit diamond belts but after this discussion I’m more inclined to upgrade. I assume Nova wheels use industrial grade diamonds So in theory it should be comparable. I was always somewhat confused on the difference between s/c and diamond. Besides the hardness factor-- if the grit profile is vastly different --- it could make quite a difference in the smoothing operation. I have a friend that bought oversea containers of Brazilian agate. He would go to Brazil and pick from the various suppliers. They shipped them back in 55 gallon drums, mostly full of slabs. ave weight 660 pounds. Back 15 years ago they were $2.50 - $3.00/pound, mirror polished both sides. He said they had a diamond belt about 6 feet long, about a foot wide laid flat and rolling fast. That they did a one step polish right off the saw. He said they wet their fingers and flipped the slab on to the belt. Moving the slab in an orbital motion with their fingers. And before the heat got to intense they slid it off the edge and into their lap. Picked a cold slab while the hot slab cooled and kept going. It makes sense, how could they polish that many slabs and sell that cheap?? No way they used a lap. Howard is up in Indiana, I need to call him and get details on that belt operation. If you look at the polish on their slabs they look almost molten as if flame polished. Dave1 mentioned the Beilby effect: Sir George Beilby (17 November 1850 – 1 August 1924) discovered that during polishing the surface of gemstones actually melted and flowed as a “glassy” layer over very fine scratches. He proved it by noting a certain scratch pattern, polishing the surface, and then recovering the scratch pattern by etching away the polished surface with acids." Well. if you have a belt that long coated in fine diamonds it would stay cool and last a long time. It would stay cool but the slab would sure get hot at high belt speed. Like a buffing pad. And cool diamonds could remove a lot of saw scratches even if it was a polish grade.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 11, 2014 6:45:20 GMT -5
jamesp your photos are the best photos I've seen showing the work of the grit progression. The obsidian made those photos possible Pat. It frosts deeply and is black. Giving a great micro shade relief to the wear pattern. Agate and coral wear much shallower and smoother, never could get such detailed photos with those harder materials.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 11, 2014 6:58:12 GMT -5
All went well as far as the overall tumble. There was 35% filler in with them. Divot wear pattern buffaloed me. The lack of scratches as mentioned, makes sense with rounder stones. A mass of balls rolling and not sliding. But with perfection, heck of a constant frost pattern in the finer grits. At least they finished w/out frost bruises. I wondered about those star garnets you tumble being effected by their roundness. jamespRolling stones in the tumble was always a problem with star garnets. You can always tell the trouble makers AFTER the polish which is a pain in the @$$. You almost need to get rid of them then go back to 220 grit. If you don't get rid of the rollers, the whole batch will look slightly frosted. With garnets I had a good mix of sizes. It seems like most obsidian / Apache tear tumbles seem to be made up of similar sized stones. I always tried to maintain a good mix of sizes. That seemed to reduce but not eliminate the rollers. You our might be able to add some crushed glass to the tumble to add some size variety to your tumble. Obsidian is tough stuff. Later Brent I sure did use crushed glass Brent. And it had to be constantly replenished almost daily as it sure wore fast in the coarse and 220 steps. I had bought a ton of crushed glass at the recycler($70/ton) so I had plenty. Also used 10 pounds of sugar total to thicken the slurry for a 12 pound load of obsidian. That way the slurry is thick from start to finish of each grit step. No choice waiting for a slurry to thicken. Just a few hours w/a thin slurry and you get the frost bruises on obsidian. Do you use glass w/your garnets as filler ?
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Post by Starguy on Oct 11, 2014 12:43:05 GMT -5
Do you use glass w/your garnets as filler ? jamespWith garnet I omly used plastic beads.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2014 15:25:06 GMT -5
plastic floats and garnets are dense. Sure would love to see a video how that works in the barrels. I never had result with plastic - n= 3 batches. I need more experience.
Jim have you tried limestone "flour" to thicken? Cheaper than sugar I am sure. $3 per 50# bag. They use it to chalk the lines on little league fields. The mine is 50 miles from here so it may cost a bit more in Hotlanta.
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