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Post by aDave on Mar 4, 2017 15:32:02 GMT -5
Good afternoon,
I've just started a polish stage in a rotary. The quick question is, "what should the consistency be like"?
The long story and question:
My 45c was loaded with a bit more than 1/2 barrel of rock with water to just below the first level of rocks. I topped off with plastic pellets to a level near 3/4. Added 8 tbsp of polish -- well, probably a bit more since they weren't level -- and started things up.
Last night I decided to check on the thickness of the slurry, as the sound of rocks was pretty subdued. Originally wasn't too worried, as I knew there was a decent enough amount of plastic and cushioning would occur. When I opened the lid, the slurry was had more thickness than I would have expected. Then again, I really didn't know what to expect, and that's why I'm asking.
I've looked for info, and what I'm seeing is that the slurry shouldn't be watery, but it also shouldn't be like oatmeal. Mine wasn't either; it was more like a thick gravy. I dipped my finger in it, and it didn't run off like water, if that makes any sense. Is that what I should be looking for, or does it need to be thinned? I wasn't smart enough to take a photo, so if you need to see one, let me know. Thanks and regards?
Dave
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Post by melhill1659 on Mar 4, 2017 15:43:08 GMT -5
🤓 here with my note book awaiting all your answers and ready to take notes! Thing is I think most of these guys polish in vibes.
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Post by captbob on Mar 4, 2017 16:11:08 GMT -5
I'm kinda puzzled that your polish thickened to a gravy consistency. Rocks & plastic beads & water + polish ought to give you something looking more like watery milk in a rotary. It will come out on your finger if dipped in, but slowly run off - not stick like a gravy.
Were your rocks done done? Asking if there is any chance you still had material being removed in your polish stage. When you added the plastic beads before starting the polish stage, had they settled - filling in all the gaps and giving you a 3/4ths full barrel? Was it 3/4ths when you opened it with beads all the way up to the top/covering the rocks? I go with over 7/8th full when polishing. Should sound like slushing in there - NO rock noise what so ever.
When I load a polish load, it's rocks, beads, rocks, beads - repeat until 7/8ths full. Sometimes I go past 7/8ths full depending on the rock, but don't worry about that yet - I would recommend you go to 7/8ths though. I also used filtered water during 1000 grit and polish stages. Like if you have a Brita water filter thingy for your drinking water. City water "can" ruin a polish, depending on your water ...
To answer your last question, I would add some more beads & water. For more cushioning and to thin your gravy.
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Post by aDave on Mar 4, 2017 16:32:58 GMT -5
I'm kinda puzzled that your polish thickened to a gravy consistency. Rocks & plastic beads & water + polish ought to give you something looking more like watery milk in a rotary. It will come out on your finger if dipped in, but slowly run off - not stick like a gravy. Were your rocks done done? Asking if there is any chance you still had material being removed in your polish stage. When you added the plastic beads before starting the polish stage, had they settled - filling in all the gaps and giving you a 3/4ths full barrel? Was it 3/4ths when you opened it with beads all the way up to the top/covering the rocks? I go with over 7/8th full when polishing. Should sound like slushing in there - NO rock noise what so ever. When I load a polish load, it's rocks, beads, rocks, beads - repeat until 7/8ths full. Sometimes I go past 7/8ths full depending on the rock, but don't worry about that yet - I would recommend you go to 7/8ths though. I also used filtered water during 1000 grit and polish stages. Like if you have a Brita water filter thingy for your drinking water. City water "can" ruin a polish, depending on your water ... To answer your last question, I would add some more beads & water. For more cushioning and to thin your gravy. Thanks captbob . Based upon your answer, I'm kind of leaning toward it being too thick as it's certainly not looking like milk. It's thicker. Also, with how you mentioned the beads should be added, the end result is that I probably don't have enough water (and beads) as you noted. When I loaded, I placed all of the rocks at the bottom, added water to the bottom of the top level of the rock(maybe even a hair less), and then I poured the beads on top. I did not allow for any bead settling into gaps, nor did I layer like you. Until seeing your reply, I always wondered how to properly work with pellets, but your answer certainly makes sense. Seems like I created an artificially low rock level by not adding pellets and only adding enough water to cover that "low" level of rocks. If I layer like you do, and then add water, do I add to bottom of the top layer of rocks or completely cover them with water? Thank you very much for your help. Regards. Dave
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Post by captbob on Mar 4, 2017 16:47:53 GMT -5
Yes, I usually go with water to the bottom of the top layer of rocks (at least) for finer grits & polish. Even more w/ "soft" rocks. More water = more cushioning. Cushioning paramount with fine grits & polish. I do NOT want to hear rocks in these stages.
Not so much water needed with the coarser grits. If you use kitty litter to create a slurry, more water necessary, and more frequent checks on slurry thickness. Litter will suck up some water! Kitty litter ONLY for coarser grits. I would not use the kitty litter past 120/220.
Do the rocks & beads thing and add the water and polish last. That way, the beads are filling in the gaps. Another thing you can do is add the rocks & beads, the water & polish - close the barrel up and roll it back & forth a bunch on the floor with your hand to "mix" the load. Then open and inspect for if barrel is as at the level you want it. Close back up if the level is good and tumble away.
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Post by aDave on Mar 4, 2017 17:26:42 GMT -5
Yes, I usually go with water to the bottom of the top layer of rocks (at least) for finer grits & polish. Even more w/ "soft" rocks. More water = more cushioning. Cushioning paramount with fine grits & polish. I do NOT want to hear rocks in these stages. Not so much water needed with the coarser grits. If you use kitty litter to create a slurry, more water necessary, and more frequent checks on slurry thickness. Litter will suck up some water! Kitty litter ONLY for coarser grits. I would not use the kitty litter past 120/220. Do the rocks & beads thing and add the water and polish last. That way, the beads are filling in the gaps. Another thing you can do is add the rocks & beads, the water & polish - close the barrel up and roll it back & forth a bunch on the floor with your hand to "mix" the load. Then open and inspect for if barrel is as at the level you want it. Close back up if the level is good and tumble away. Outstanding. Thank you, sir. After the painter comes by today, it's back into the garage to "repair" this stage. Glad I asked. I would have hated to waste a week or so with this stuff being too thick and not doing what it was supposed to. Regards. Dave
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Post by captbob on Mar 4, 2017 17:39:38 GMT -5
One last thing I'm thinking about - a 1/2 of a cup seems like a LOT of polish for that barrel. I doubt I don't even use that much in my 15 lb barrels. How much of the coarse grits do you use on the early stages?
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Post by spiceman on Mar 4, 2017 20:42:59 GMT -5
Did you clean the rocks and barrel real good before the polish stage? Or did you use a different barrel?
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Post by aDave on Mar 5, 2017 12:38:16 GMT -5
One last thing I'm thinking about - a 1/2 of a cup seems like a LOT of polish for that barrel. I doubt I don't even use that much in my 15 lb barrels. How much of the coarse grits do you use on the early stages? Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. We had an internet outage last night. You made me double check to see if I was looking at the correct chart in the Lortone books, and I was. I use 8 tbsp for all stages. I am using something labeled TXP (for polish) which I ordered online some years ago. Last night I went to "fix" the polish stage as you recommended. In taking a closer look at the slurry, I'm wondering if it's actually foaming. It's not getting the big obvious bubbles like occurs at the beginning of a course grind. It kind of looked like it had aerated some. By the time I was done trying to repair it, I decided to start over. I dumped everything out, rinsed rocks/beads and barrel, and started again. When I was rinsing, I pulled out a piece of quartz, dried it off, and it looked like it was already starting to take a polish. I'll check it again tonight to see what is going on and if anything has changed/improved. Regards. Dave
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Post by aDave on Mar 5, 2017 12:43:02 GMT -5
Did you clean the rocks and barrel real good before the polish stage? Or did you use a different barrel? Hi spiceman. Yes to both questions. I'm actually using three different barrels for the entire process. One barrel for the course grind, one barrel for the intermediates, and one barrel for the polish. The rocks were run through a burnish stage with Borax before doing the polish stage. The polish barrel was brand new/unused so it got a quick rinse with water before filling. Regards. Dave
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Post by captbob on Mar 5, 2017 13:21:46 GMT -5
You made me double check to see if I was looking at the correct chart in the Lortone books, and I was. I use 8 tbsp for all stages. I'm not questioning that you are following the written instructions, but I don't have a problem saying the instructions are wrong. Saying 8 tbsp of whatever grit/polish may be a guideline - probably written by someone looking to sell grit & polish. I just went to the Rock Shed site, and it says that a Lortone 45C tumbler is a 4 lb barrel. 8 tbsp is a half cup. I don't use smaller barrels like that, but I could see using a 1/2 cup of what you are using for coarse grit and maybe that much all the way up to 120/220. Beyond that, I would recommend cutting that amount as the steps progress. Might not do any harm using 1/2 cup of 500 or 1000, but I kinda doubt that much is necessary. Again, folks selling grit want you to use more! As to polish amount for a 4 lb barrel, I wouldn't think that more than 2 tbsp would be needed. 3 wouldn't hurt, but from that point on is overkill. 8 tbsp (1/2 cup) of polish in a 4 lb barrel is a ridiculous amount of polish. Hopefully others can chime in here. At the amount given in your instructions, that would be a cup and a half of polish in a 12 lb barrel? Oh my.... just went to Google and maybe found the instructions that you are following. (?) www.bellevuerockclub.org/tumble.htmlThat chart says to add 25 tbsp of polish in a 12 lb barrel! That's over a cup and a half of polish. (gonna be awhile before I quit laughing!) BTW - polish can be saved. What you dumped out last night could have been saved and used as your polish for the next year - or more. When you finish a polish run, dump everything, liquid& beads in a tupperware and save it for the next polish run. I don't think that using 8 tbsp of polish would hurt anything, just saying it is (completely!) unnecessary and may be the cause of your gravy like polish slurry. Again, not dissin' you for following the instructions. How would you know any different or why would you question them? Just saying they are wrong. As to your last post, I don't see the issue with your polish stage looking "aerated". Just went and looked at a container of polish "slurry" that has been sitting in a tupperware for over a week now and it is still a bit foamy / aerated. 'least when I dip my finger in it it comes out covered in a whitish liquid full of the tiniest of bubbles. That seems normal from my experience.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 5, 2017 13:27:17 GMT -5
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Post by aDave on Mar 5, 2017 14:31:37 GMT -5
captbob, Thanks for the additional info. I'll pop the lid off the barrel tonight and see what it's doing. I don't feel dissed in anyway by you questioning what I did, so no harm in being critical of the instructions. As Jugglerguy posted, that's one Lortone book I have (and looked at...see page 3). I also have a separate Lortone book and it mentions 8 Tbsp for all stages. Maybe you got it right...more for selling grit! In any event, I'll perhaps let this current stage run with the 8 Tbsp and the next time cut it back to what you are recommending to see what differences there are...other than co$t. I still have the bucket with polish and beads that I dumped and the water that was used to rinse. Will the polish settle to where I can pour off the excess water? Then would I just let the polish dry out, like when disposing of slurry from a bucket, or do I want the liquid concoction? Thanks and regards. Dave
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Post by captbob on Mar 5, 2017 15:07:20 GMT -5
One thing on the plastic beads.
My tumbling loads live & die by the beads. Meaning - I LIKE 'EM! I go with beads only as filler from 500 grit on. Often start mixing them in with ceramics with 120/220 & 320 grit, depending on the rocks in the load.
The one thing - you need to keep (store used) beads separate for specific grits. Don't take beads used in 500 grit and put them in your polish run. This may be picky, but something I have always done to prevent contamination. Probably okay to move them along if you rinse the heck out of them, but I figured long ago that it was just easier to have enough beads that I don't have to mess with cleaning them other than a quick rinse and forget.
You may use beads from finer stages in coarser steps if you need them, but then keep them marked for that step.
Your question - yes, the mixture can be left aside to allow the water to evaporate. Takes a long time. Much longer than just evaporating plain water. Or, the polish will settle, may take awhile. But the beads are floating (I only use floating beads, beads that don't float are a PITA) so you will probably lose some polish (stuck to and amongst the beads) if you try to dump off the water. If you try to dump water, the polish settled to the bottom will remix super easily. I just put the whole mix in a container and seal it as is, ready to go next time I need it. Maybe easier/faster than trying to lose the water, and I don't lose any polish that way.
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Post by aDave on Mar 5, 2017 15:26:51 GMT -5
Thanks for all of the help captbob. As to the pellets, at least I have been doing something right...I don't move along the pellets with the rocks. I scoop them out of the rinse bucket (yes, it's great they float) and only use them in the same stage they were used in before. I had been told long ago that grit might embed in them. Never wanted to take a chance. Have a great rest of your day. Off to go run a skiploader. Regards. Dave
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Post by tims on Mar 6, 2017 22:03:37 GMT -5
Very informative thread. Was curious captbob , when you reuse the polish slurry do you still add polish on the next load? If so, the normal amount or significantly less? I've only finished one load in 12# rotary and used 1.5 cups of polish, where the manual calls for 2.4 (24 tablespoons). Sounds like it's safe to trim that back a bit more.
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Post by Garage Rocker on Mar 6, 2017 22:09:48 GMT -5
All this talk about CUPS of polish makes me want to go hug my Lot O.
1/2 teaspoon!
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Post by captbob on Mar 6, 2017 22:17:10 GMT -5
Hey tims, I usually add a little new to the existing polish slurry, but very little. The polish won't wear out any time soon like grit will. Probably don't need to add any for a few/several runs with the used slurry, adding a spoon full or two may not even be necessary. A cup is 16 tablespoons. 24 would be a cup and a half. That is a LOT for a 12 lb barrel! I don't even use a half cup -8 tbsp- in a 15 lb barrel.
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Post by captbob on Mar 6, 2017 22:21:16 GMT -5
All this talk about CUPS of polish makes me want to go hug my Lot O. 1/2 teaspoon! That's just it.... there shouldn't be ANY talk with cups and polish in the same sentence! 2-3 tbsps is what I usually go with. 4 if I'm feeling frisky. But that is in a 15 lb barrel. As I said before, a cup and a half of polish is a ridiculous amount of polish. Huge waste.
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Post by aDave on Mar 6, 2017 23:17:04 GMT -5
All this talk about CUPS of polish makes me want to go hug my Lot O. 1/2 teaspoon! I'm with you on this. Although early, I'm looking at a vibe down the road to handle anything past the shaping. My rotaries are small right now, and I'm looking to step up to a larger size just to handle the first step. I just haven't decided which route to go...Lortone or Thumlers. I've perused a multitude of threads regarding each. There are pros and cons for each for me. Right now, I'm leaning toward the QT-66, but have not pulled the trigger yet. I wish there was a distinctive advantage of one over the other, but I haven't seen that yet. Best regards. Dave
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