melf77
having dreams about rocks
Member since July 2017
Posts: 70
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Post by melf77 on Oct 5, 2017 9:14:00 GMT -5
Seems like soft rocks would not only shape fast in coarse grind but also polish faster too. My experience has been the opposite, hard rocks are first to achieve polish in a batch of agate jasper and coral. Coral is super hard and it always polishes quicker than a bit softer jasper in the same load. Every time. Slow as hell to shape, but fast to polish $&@/)!&/. Slurry thickener may play a big role in polishing soft rocks. I would not discount that theory. To me, dry tumbling uses thick slurry. Basically the walnut shells or whatever is used is basically the slurry. Very padded. Some toothpaste is abrasive, to whiten your pearly's lol. Maybe some toothpastes would get er done. (Brain storming here). Maybe a visit to Sam's is in order. Some tooth pastes use pumice. Some use aluminum oxide/aluminum silicate compounds. Others. Hmmm At least the quality control is in place since it is used orally. Thanks for posting your thoughts. It's got me thinking too.
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,424
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Post by Wooferhound on Oct 5, 2017 14:18:51 GMT -5
Aren't there some hobbies that use toothpaste as a polish ?
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Post by grumpybill on Oct 5, 2017 14:26:12 GMT -5
Aren't there some hobbies that use toothpaste as a polish ? Back in the day, I used a combination of Ulta Bright toothpaste and lemon oil to clean and polish my guitars.
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Post by MrMike on Oct 5, 2017 17:28:05 GMT -5
jamesp , what about using some lava rocks in the rotary? You do like time released I am out of town, getting ready to ask wife to turn off vibe after 2.5 days this morning. I left it unattended. When I get back I will report. I figured the wife would leave the vibe on more when you're out of town.....
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Oct 6, 2017 7:19:33 GMT -5
I am out of town, getting ready to ask wife to turn off vibe after 2.5 days this morning. I left it unattended. When I get back I will report. I figured the wife would leave the vibe on more when you're out of town..... Dang it ! Thanks for reminding me. I forgot to tell her to turn off the (rock) vibe. Can't control the other vibe, lol. Bet it dried out. Oh me, that didn't sound right. Dirty minds, I know where that went.
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Oct 6, 2017 7:36:05 GMT -5
Interesting grumpybill. I have a pile of near tumble polished obsidian, rhyolite, glass, flourite and others melf77 that I can throw in the vibe to test various polishes. I could use a Lot-O, it seems do bo the best job on soft rocks. I have a Vibrasonic and it like to bruise soft rocks. But counterweights can be adjusted to gentler vibrations. Gentler meaning less amplitude, not frequency. Frequency is fixed because motor speed and ratio is fixed. Counterweights are driven at about 3300 RPM fixed speed. Amplitude settings on metal vibratories have a shake distance of about 1/16 to 1/8 inch. That would bruise rocks terribly. OK for metal. Rock vibes probably travel 1/64 of an inch or less. More like ultra sound.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 6, 2017 8:10:44 GMT -5
Aren't there some hobbies that use toothpaste as a polish ? Noted.
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Post by grumpybill on Oct 6, 2017 8:21:30 GMT -5
That was back in the late 70s. I haven't used anything abrasive on my guitars since then. Over the intervening years the nitro lacquer finish has worn off in places. Don't know that the toothpaste accelerated the wear, but it makes sense that it did. Oh...and off topic, but...3300 cycles per second is nowhere near ultra sound. The distance traveled only affects amplitude. 3300 Hz is in the "intelligibility" range of the human ear/brain where it's most sensitive, which is why vibratory tumblers seem loud.
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Oct 6, 2017 8:36:15 GMT -5
That was back in the late 70s. I haven't used anything abrasive on my guitars since then. Over the intervening years the nitro lacquer finish has worn off in places. Don't know that the toothpaste accelerated the wear, but it makes sense that it did. Oh...and off topic, but...3300 cycles per second is nowhere near ultra sound. The distance traveled only affects amplitude. 3300 Hz is in the "intelligibility" range of the human ear/brain where it's most sensitive, which is why vibratory tumblers seem loud. Yes, that is correct. I do want to make a point that short vibrations are probably better for rock polishing than long vibrations. For example the thin tight string on your guitar instead of the loose thick string for base. Music people get vibrations. If you could double the ratio on the counterweight so that the 3450 RPM motor was turning the counterweight at 6600 RPM instead of 3300 RPM may help our polish rate. But, the amount of counterweight would need to be reduced to reduce the amplitude. I.E. low amplitude/high frequency. But most companies probably don't want to sell a machine with a 6600 RPM anything on it. That is very fast. May create maintenance issues. I had to look it up. Ultrasound is 20,000 per second and faster. That is humming.
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Post by 1dave on Oct 6, 2017 8:52:58 GMT -5
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Oct 6, 2017 19:56:22 GMT -5
Seems toothpaste is a relatively new product as we know it today 1dave. Lots of new whitening methods in past few years.
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Post by gmitch067 on Nov 3, 2017 21:11:10 GMT -5
Aren't there some hobbies that use toothpaste as a polish ? When I have the Grandkids visiting, I invite them to sit down and work some cheap Amber chunks (from Amazon). They use SiC wet/dry sandpapers to shape the rocks and then I give them some Crest white toothpaste to polish them on a kitchen towel... Nice shine! the kids are happy.
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Post by gmitch067 on Nov 4, 2017 1:27:20 GMT -5
Hi jamesp. I need some advice regarding using Pumice to recover two failed-to-polish tumbler loads. Lortone 3A-1: Indego Gabbro; Mohs 4-5 Lortone 3A-2: Hematite; Mohs 5-6 Both tumbler loads went through about the same stages and times: 80 grit SiC, 2-3 wks to shape 220 grit SiC, 1 wk 600 grit SiC, 1 wk 1200 grit SiC, 2 wks AO-14000 polish, 4 days (checked every 2 days) Burnishing, 1 day Note: Both tumblers utilized small well worn ceramics as cushioning. Both loads failed to polish beyond a slight satiny sheen for the Hemitite, and much worse for the Gabbro. I have some Pumice in 0-1/2, F, and FF grades. After the burnish stages completed, I added 4TBS of FF Pumice to each load and tumbled them for 4-days (checking every 2-days). I did NOT dump the contents… only checked a small handful of stones and then returned them to the light slurry. Both Hemitite and Gabbro looked better (especially the Gabbro)… but still no shine. Last night I added to each drum’s slurry 1TBS of fresh FF Pumice and 1TBS of AO-14000 polish – with the intent of checking them every 2-days for results. Question: By adding the AO-14000 polish, did I in effect just return the tumbler loads back to where they started after the first failure?
Question: How would you recommend attacking this problem using Pumice? Note: I realize the Hematite is probably too hard to be touched by Pumice… But the Gabbro might benefit.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 4, 2017 7:18:11 GMT -5
Hi jamesp. I need some advice regarding using Pumice to recover two failed-to-polish tumbler loads. Lortone 3A-1: Indego Gabbro; Mohs 4-5 Lortone 3A-2: Hematite; Mohs 5-6 Both tumbler loads went through about the same stages and times: 80 grit SiC, 2-3 wks to shape 220 grit SiC, 1 wk 600 grit SiC, 1 wk 1200 grit SiC, 2 wks AO-14000 polish, 4 days (checked every 2 days) Burnishing, 1 day Note: Both tumblers utilized small well worn ceramics as cushioning. Both loads failed to polish beyond a slight satiny sheen for the Hemitite, and much worse for the Gabbro. I have some Pumice in 0-1/2, F, and FF grades. After the burnish stages completed, I added 4TBS of FF Pumice to each load and tumbled them for 4-days (checking every 2-days). I did NOT dump the contents… only checked a small handful of stones and then returned them to the light slurry. Both Hemitite and Gabbro looked better (especially the Gabbro)… but still no shine. Last night I added to each drum’s slurry 1TBS of fresh FF Pumice and 1TBS of AO-14000 polish – with the intent of checking them every 2-days for results. Question: By adding the AO-14000 polish, did I in effect just return the tumbler loads back to where they started after the first failure?
Question: How would you recommend attacking this problem using Pumice? Note: I realize the Hematite is probably too hard to be touched by Pumice… But the Gabbro might benefit. A note on abrasives Glenn. AO 14,000 polish is not all AO 14,000 in size. It is probably 10% 1000, 20% 8000 40% 14,000 20% 20,000 and 10% 25,000 (ROUGHLY) or a similar mix. Most is not precision screened. The government allows abrasive companies to market 14,000 or most any abrasive with a controlled range of sizes. If you insisted on 14,000 +/- 5% variation most could not afford it. Precision screening super fine abrasives = $$ The military may insist on AO 14,000 +/- 5% for a high stress helicopter rotor shaft where the slightest scratch would create a stress fracture - a bad day.(Example) A government employ unknowingly scribed part numbers on some helicopter rotor shafts resulting in catastrophic failures. For example, this is a typical allowable size distribution, in this case 90 micron pumice: From this pumice link: www.comcoinc.com/have-you-considered-pumice/So to answer your question about 14,000 from the Rock Shed which is an excellent excellent product --for tumbling--. Yes, you will loss polish till the 14,000 breaks down. Because it has a percentage of (estimating) say 10 to 20 percent 1000 to 3000 size particles in it that will kill a wet shine. Rock tumbling humans can give polish the royal test. A test that the abrasive companies must use very complicated screening equipment to perform. We can simply put wet polished agates in a vibe with fresh Rock Shed AO 14,000 and come back 4 hours later and find the polish severely damaged. Come back say 20 to 40 hours and find the wet polish has come back. Only after the abrasive crushing vibe has reduced those 1000 to 3000 particles. why ? Again, because there is larger than 14,000 particles mixed in, like 1000 to 3000 sized polish killers. Doubt 100% pure expensive 14,000 would kill a wet shine.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 4, 2017 8:19:36 GMT -5
gmitch067Gabbro has a lot of different stuff in it. Probably has silica in it. May be tricky to assign a soft abrasive to it. Take a homogenous serpentine for instance. It can range from Mohs 3 to Mohs 6 depending on silica content. It may all look the same green color, but still vary in clear silica. Or may not have silica at all. Whereas rocks like obsidian or fluorite are pure. Constant in hardness. if you want to experiment with finishing abrasives you should consider a vibe. Sure makes the abrasive breakdown process way faster. My vibe holds 14 pounds. I usually experiment with 2 to 4 pounds of rock. Meaning the other 10 to 12 pounds is small agate type media. I would get the cou de gras of polishing vibes, the Lot-O. It is the newest technology out there.
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Post by HankRocks on Nov 4, 2017 9:07:37 GMT -5
Jamesp, with the range of grades in AO 14,000 it would seem logical that reused polish would get finer and finer as the coarser grades breakdown. That might be offset by some of the rock being polished breaking off and adding "scratchers" to the mix. In time those "scratchers" would get polished.
Have also captured the AO 80 slurry after running my latest batch(rotary) of preforms, plan on using it as a slurry for the next batch(rotary) to run AO 80, seems like it would make a great slurry. The first 80 AO batch is coming off the Vib Polish today and it's taken a better polish in 2 less days than my previous batches. I will call it a success.
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Post by gmitch067 on Nov 4, 2017 9:10:49 GMT -5
Thank you for your advice and very interesting info on the AO polish abrasive qualities jamesp. I have the UV-10 and UV-18 vibes already to have fun with, but will consider the Lot-O if I want to expand further. Thanks again! Glenn
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Nov 4, 2017 9:48:53 GMT -5
Jamesp, with the range of grades in AO 14,000 it would seem logical that reused polish would get finer and finer as the coarser grades breakdown. That might be offset by some of the rock being polished breaking off and adding "scratchers" to the mix. In time those "scratchers" would get polished. Have also captured the AO 80 slurry after running my latest batch(rotary) of preforms, plan on using it as a slurry for the next batch(rotary) to run AO 80, seems like it would make a great slurry. The first 80 AO batch is coming off the Vib Polish today and it's taken a better polish in 2 less days than my previous batches. I will call it a success. I recently ran three loads in the vibe each using fresh AO 80 for 48 hours each. I set them aside with their decent pre-polish. About 5 pounds of agate each load with 9 pounds of small agate media. Then I took those pre-polished 5 pound loads of agates and ran each 5 pound batch in the same polish. Never turned the vibe off or cleaned it out. Again, about 5 pounds of agate with 9 pounds of small quartz media each run. The same polish was totally effective for all 3 loads. Slapped the ole wet shine on each load. I simply hand picked most of the target agates out of the vibe when done while it was running and replaced them with the next 5 pound batch of agates. Yes AO polish is reusable. How many times I do not know. You would think it would become AO 50,000 or AO 100,000 after time.... I find alum ox to be the finest finishing abrasive known. Due to it's ability to round. And when saying 'finishing', that means ALL next steps after SiC 30. Because all steps after coarse grind are just effecting the thin outside layer. Like 50 microns of the outside layer. If sharp AO 22 can take stones with a nasty SiC 30 finish to a fine pre-polish(actually a great polish) in 48 hours in Vibrasonic it tells you that the AO changes from sharp to smooth. Note that the AO 22 particles never disintegrated. After 48 hours down they were still remaining at the bottom of the vibe hopper, but altered to smooth. Can about guarantee you that sharp virgin aluminum oxide particles the size of BB's would also slap a fine polish down in 48 hours as well. The only abrasive these 2 rocks ever saw was SiC 30 in the rotary and AO 22 in the vibe: And this rock got severe treatment. It ran in fresh SiC 30 for 24 hours before going to the vibe with AO 22 for 48 hours. It had a very rough surface, the AO 22 had a lot of changing to do:
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Nov 4, 2017 9:54:09 GMT -5
Thank you for your advice and very interesting info on the AO polish abrasive qualities jamesp. I have the UV-10 and UV-18 vibes already to have fun with, but will consider the Lot-O if I want to expand further. Thanks again! Glenn so are you making all these runs in the UV ?
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 4, 2017 10:00:30 GMT -5
HankRocksI just bought 10 pounds of white fused AO 220 for cheap on Ebay. May try it out on some situations in the vibe like soft stones and re-polishings. AO 220, I for years had a 2 gallon bucket of it when I only ran rotaries. For a couple of years I used it instead of SiC 220 in the rotary. Sometimes I would get busy and leave the rotary running for 3 weeks with the AO 220. Noticed an unusually fine shine starting to develop that never happened with SiC 220 run 3 weeks in the rotary. AO is just a great finishing treatment. as long as it starts out coarse enough to remove the pits from the last abrasive the rocks saw.
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