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Post by HankRocks on Feb 21, 2018 20:58:42 GMT -5
Most folks who buy my pendants are not lapidary knowledgeable enough to understand any difference between the two methods, they buy because they like them. Of course I am not selling anywhere near the quality of material that I have seen several of you folks post so my price is, I suspect, a good bit lower. Then again the 8 year old who has $10 in their hand to buy Mom a pretty pendant for Christmas or birthday can do so and might get 2 or 3 dollars back.
I am doing a Gem and Mineral Show this weekend so the crowd will have a higher level of Lapidary knowledge. A friend sent me some nice wire-wrapped pendants to sell and I have priced them a good bit higher than my material. Will be curious to see how they sell in comparison.
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Post by toiv0 on Feb 21, 2018 21:14:21 GMT -5
Most folks who buy my pendants are not lapidary knowledgeable enough to understand any difference between the two methods, they buy because they like them. Of course I am not selling anywhere near the quality of material that I have seen several of you folks post so my price is, I suspect, a good bit lower. Then again the 8 year old who has $10 in their hand to buy Mom a pretty pendant for Christmas or birthday can do so and might get 2 or 3 dollars back. I am doing a Gem and Mineral Show this weekend so the crowd will have a higher level of Lapidary knowledge. A friend sent me some nice wire-wrapped pendants to sell and I have priced them a good bit higher than my material. Will be curious to see how they sell in comparison. where is the show?
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minerken
Cave Dweller
Member since August 2013
Posts: 466
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Post by minerken on Feb 21, 2018 21:53:16 GMT -5
I am actually surprised that @rockjunquies question was not raised before this. I hope this doesn't cause a fire storm here I know it would in certain circles but I'm not afraid so let me give you my take on it. Let me ask this question " prehistoric man made jewelry by taking what they felt was pretty, sacred, magical or what ever first they probably carried it around in their pouch, then someone figured out that they could tie a cord of sinew or leather on it, next one inventive person figured out how to drill a hole. While all this was going on one of them noticed that the more they handled it , it got a little more shiny hope you see where I'm going with this. Now lets look at faceting a diamond, in the old days they must have noticed that facets on some stones enhanced their appearance so they started hand grinding them, maybe rubbing them on another media then they studied their trigonometry and decided that they need more precise facets so the start of faceting machines and now they may even have CNC type of machines that actually do all the cutting and many times more precise than a human can.
So here is my question to you. What would an average everyday buyer pay for, or more for, a cab that looked like a (modern) cave man made it or one of your beautiful pieces of work that you used modern hight tech machines and highly refined polishes say everything was equal material. Heres what I think DeBeers would say " these diamonds have been cut using only the highest tech machines available to produce the most brilliant cut possible" ? Do you think they would then say because of this we are offering at a much less cost than the hand cut stones of lesser brilliance? Over many years I don't think that I have sold more than 500$ at the very most, most don't give a crap how I made them just how cheap they can get ones they like.
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Post by rockjunquie on Feb 21, 2018 22:05:36 GMT -5
I'm willing to bet that the average person who knows nothing about lapidary wouldn't give a rat's tail if it was tumbled or cabbed. However, the people in the business would obviously have a stake in their opinions.
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Deleted
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Member since January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 22:19:21 GMT -5
So here is my question to you. What would an average everyday buyer pay for, or more for, a cab that looked like a (modern) cave man made it or one of your beautiful pieces of work that you used modern hight tech machines and highly refined polishes say everything was equal material. I would say it depends on what the buyer is interested in buying: what he or she is planning to do with it. If a buyer wants cookie-cutter perfection, then they are probably going to look and pay for something in a calibrated size with an exact shape that will fit into pre-made settings or template designs. If a buyer is going to do a custom piece, then they are just looking for something that will look good in their design. If a buyer is looking first and foremost for a particular stone, then they'll look for pieces where someone took the time to select the best pattern and color combination that represents that gem variety. I've seen some perfectly cut stones where the cutter ignored color and pattern and just cut either to maximize yield and/or just focused on fitting whatever template they were using, ruining what could have been some extremely high-grade gems. I've seen some stunning, high-priced jewelry made (intentionally) using "cave man" cut gems, too. I'm not sure that using a tumbler for the final polishes is going to affect the outcome of cabs formed and sanded on wheels, except for some mixed-hardness stones where tumbling could cause some undercutting.
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Post by HankRocks on Feb 21, 2018 22:40:12 GMT -5
(The Clear Lake Gem and Mineral Show, at the Pasadena Convention Center.)
This is similar to the dyed/treated stone issue. A lot of folks don't care, they just like the altered stone and the resulting un-natural colors. The purist on the other hand wouldn't think of using or selling them, or at the very least clearly identifying them as such.
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Post by rockjunquie on Feb 21, 2018 23:40:24 GMT -5
OK, I got to thinking about this.... who do you think spends more time on a cab? A tumbler or a cabber? The reason that people think a tumbled cab should be less is because of the time involved, right? I don't tumble, so I don't know what that entails, but from reading here, I gather that you do the same as a cabber up to about the 280 or 600 wheel. Then what? Several tumble loads to polish? I'm seriously thinking that a tumbler spends more time on a cab. Obviously, we have to discount the time in the tumbler because you aren't actually working on it. But, loading and unloading a tumbler has to take some time. I think a good average for one of my cabs taken through the 100k is about 25 minutes. Some more, some less. (with decent life left on the wheels- God knows worn ones can slow you down) How does that time compare to a tumbled cab?
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Post by rockjunquie on Feb 22, 2018 0:01:00 GMT -5
So here is my question to you. What would an average everyday buyer pay for, or more for, a cab that looked like a (modern) cave man made it or one of your beautiful pieces of work that you used modern hight tech machines and highly refined polishes say everything was equal material. I kinda think that's apples and oranges. I'm not sure, but I think you are comparing cabbing to the caveman. I don't think that's fair, at all. A cabber can get a fabulous polish, too. I have to agree with what @rocks2dust is saying. It's up to the buyer and the buyer's needs. And to the eye of the lapidary artist.
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minerken
Cave Dweller
Member since August 2013
Posts: 466
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Post by minerken on Feb 22, 2018 0:02:51 GMT -5
I would say it depends on what the buyer is interested in buying: what he or she is planning to do with it. If a buyer wants cookie-cutter perfection, then they are probably going to look and pay for something in a calibrated size with an exact shape that will fit into pre-made settings or template designs. If a buyer is going to do a custom piece, then they are just looking for something that will look good in their design. If a buyer is looking first and foremost for a particular stone, then they'll look for pieces where someone took the time to select the best pattern and color combination that represents that gem variety. I've seen some perfectly cut stones where the cutter ignored color and pattern and just cut either to maximize yield and/or just focused on fitting whatever template they were using, ruining what could have been some extremely high-grade gems. I've seen some stunning, high-priced jewelry made (intentionally) using "cave man" cut gems, too. I'm not sure that using a tumbler for the final polishes is going to affect the outcome of cabs formed and sanded on wheels, except for some mixed-hardness stones where tumbling could cause some undercutting. I generally agree with all you have said like i before except after c the are always exceptions and beauty is in the eye of the beholder ( I know this for a fact as my wife chose me no highly crafted individual for sure)
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minerken
Cave Dweller
Member since August 2013
Posts: 466
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Post by minerken on Feb 22, 2018 0:39:24 GMT -5
So here is my question to you. What would an average everyday buyer pay for, or more for, a cab that looked like a (modern) cave man made it I kinda think that's apples and oranges. I'm not sure, but I think you are comparing cabbing to the caveman. I don't think that's fair, at all. A cabber can get a fabulous polish, too. I have to agree with what @rocks2dust is saying. It's up to the buyer and the buyer's needs. And to the eye of the lapidary artist. No NO NO quite the opposite I'm talking about a person in modern times that uses cave man techniques like rubbing a couple rocks together to try to get a polish " from above" " or one of your beautiful pieces of work that you used modern hight tech machines and highly refined polishes say everything was equal material. " I was referring to modern cabbers vs modern people who are trying to mimic prehistoric art specifically. And if you refer to my first post I said this ""In all fairness you can probably achieve as good or better a product using the traditional cabbing methods i.e. wheels. So is it worth it ""
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minerken
Cave Dweller
Member since August 2013
Posts: 466
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Post by minerken on Feb 22, 2018 1:39:10 GMT -5
As an example remember this person I know she tumbled but I was always under the impression that her cabbing was all done by hand I have never achieved this degree polish what ever way I have done it. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/post/843016/thread
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Post by toiv0 on Feb 22, 2018 2:23:56 GMT -5
Even if you buy calibrated stones, especially the larger faceted ones you almost always have to adjust a premade setting because as someone before me said here you maximize the stone it self. So a 8 mm might be 8.2 mm. A friend has a cabbing machine and wear and tear on a machine like bushings, bearings, wear on wheels can alter the exact size. I do hand and vibe and think vibes are faster but when you just need the onezee out comes the Genie. I don't use any pre fab settings except for some of the very small calibration and thats probably because I have a crap load of bezel cups from when I first started.
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Post by HankRocks on Feb 22, 2018 8:40:36 GMT -5
OK, I got to thinking about this.... who do you think spends more time on a cab? A tumbler or a cabber? The reason that people think a tumbled cab should be less is because of the time involved, right? I don't tumble, so I don't know what that entails, but from reading here, I gather that you do the same as a cabber up to about the 280 or 600 wheel. Then what? Several tumble loads to polish? I'm seriously thinking that a tumbler spends more time on a cab. Obviously, we have to discount the time in the tumbler because you aren't actually working on it. But, loading and unloading a tumbler has to take some time. I think a good average for one of my cabs taken through the 100k is about 25 minutes. Some more, some less. (with decent life left on the wheels- God knows worn ones can slow you down) How does that time compare to a tumbled cab? Time spent depends on the shape of the cab and the material. Simple triangles and such are only 2 or 3 minutes on an 80 diamond wheel beveling the edges and I am done and it's on to the tumbler queue. If I am trying to do a heart shape then my time goes up. Not able to get anything quick because I need to get enough done to fill my 15 pound rotary. Some of my preforms wait several weeks waiting for a full load. Could get a smaller rotary but there is no urgency for me so I wait. The hand method does allow for quicker production of individual pieces. I have seen your wonderful tear drop and other more professional shapes and they would all take me more time. I discount the learning curve as that is there in either method, my first hearts looked more kidney shaped! not a big demand for a kidney shaped pendant.!!
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Post by rockjunquie on Feb 22, 2018 9:03:52 GMT -5
As an example remember this person I know she tumbled but I was always under the impression that her cabbing was all done by hand I have never achieved this degree polish what ever way I have done it. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/post/843016/threadYes, Krystee is my hero!! She used a flat lap then, too. I can't even get the hang of that. I can definitely approach that shine with the new spin on wheels, though. I see what your saying in the post above. I figured I misread you.
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Post by rockjunquie on Feb 22, 2018 9:07:04 GMT -5
OK, I got to thinking about this.... who do you think spends more time on a cab? A tumbler or a cabber? The reason that people think a tumbled cab should be less is because of the time involved, right? I don't tumble, so I don't know what that entails, but from reading here, I gather that you do the same as a cabber up to about the 280 or 600 wheel. Then what? Several tumble loads to polish? I'm seriously thinking that a tumbler spends more time on a cab. Obviously, we have to discount the time in the tumbler because you aren't actually working on it. But, loading and unloading a tumbler has to take some time. I think a good average for one of my cabs taken through the 100k is about 25 minutes. Some more, some less. (with decent life left on the wheels- God knows worn ones can slow you down) How does that time compare to a tumbled cab? Time spent depends on the shape of the cab and the material. Simple triangles and such are only 2 or 3 minutes on an 80 diamond wheel beveling the edges and I am done and it's on to the tumbler queue. If I am trying to do a heart shape then my time goes up. Not able to get anything quick because I need to get enough done to fill my 15 pound rotary. Some of my preforms wait several weeks waiting for a full load. Could get a smaller rotary but there is no urgency for me so I wait. The hand method does allow for quicker production of individual pieces. I have seen your wonderful tear drop and other more professional shapes and they would all take me more time. I discount the learning curve as that is there in either method, my first hearts looked more kidney shaped! not a big demand for a kidney shaped pendant.!! Yeah, I hadn't even considered that you needed to do a bunch to fill the barrel. So, all said and done a tumbler probably does spend more time on a cab, right? If that's the case, then why should a tumbled cab cost less, which seems to be what I always hear?
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minerken
Cave Dweller
Member since August 2013
Posts: 466
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Post by minerken on Feb 22, 2018 15:03:40 GMT -5
I think that what has given tumble polishing such a bad rep is all the massive lots of sweat shop cabs that are produced by the Chinese and other overseas mass production entities and I have to agree the cabs they have are all sub par to say the least but they don't reflect the dedicated cabber using tumbling for their polishing methods. I know that it would burn my butt to be set up next to a person at a craft show using these products that they purchased for a dime on the dollar for what a good to excellent cab would cost and asking the same but on the other hand if you are good at your craft they shouldn't really present any kind of competition. If you are a struggling newbie you have to keep in mind that your work may not be that much if any better and to excel you need to practice practice and practice and be wiling to accept criticism and that if your level of expertise is no better than the mass produced ones you really can't say "but I've made these by hand" the fact is if there aren't done better then they aren't worth any more.
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