pantagruel
starting to shine!
Member since November 2023
Posts: 34 
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Post by pantagruel on Nov 21, 2023 18:10:46 GMT -5
Hi All!
I think I'm on the right track, but I just want to make sure. I'm working my way through my first batch of rocks, all pretty smooth and from a beach, and none can be scratched by a steel nail. So hardness at least 6.5. I'm using a mini sonic and started with 220 SC (sometimes a few rounds there), then 500 AO, and just finished 1000 AO. the plan after that is an AO polish from the rock shed and Raybrite A after that.
almost all of the stones are shiny when dry, which is really exciting! but there are a few that have a shine but primarily seem dull underneath that shine or pseudo-shine. here they are, dry then wet:
in the photos, it's the three on the left, if not already obvious. My first thought is that I need to run those through 1000 again, but I'm not sure. I have some pretty good magnification and the surface on those three looks about the same as on all the others. The stone on the left is sort of borderline between dull when dry and shiny, and I think that one will take a shine. this is based on lots and lots of reading from this forum and other places. I also haven't gone about this thinking about kinds of rocks and minerals, except for the abundance of quartz that I've found, only that I didn't want to have any soft stones or very hard stones, hopefully keeping things between 6.5 and 7.5.
What do you think? What might I not be thinking about? or am I overthinking this? And it's time to plow ahead?
thanks!
Laura
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Post by pebblesky on Nov 21, 2023 18:45:52 GMT -5
The pictures are not super high resolution but apart from hardness, how grainy the rock is also determines how shiny it could eventually be. These few rocks might just be slightly more grainy (probably can't tell by a magnifier) than some of the finer materials. You might not even see too much improvement of them after 1000 AO, but it also doesn't hurt to try.
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Post by vegasjames on Nov 21, 2023 18:46:41 GMT -5
Welcome Laura, Are you sure you cleaned the barrels and stones really good between grits, and grits and polish so that there was no earlier grit still left that can scratch the stones? Maybe try burnishing the stones. rocktumbler.com/tips/burnishing/ |
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Post by Pat on Nov 21, 2023 19:22:08 GMT -5
Welcome from California.
Not a tumbler, but many tumbling experts here. You’ve come to the right place!
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brybry
Cave Dweller 
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Member since October 2021
Posts: 1,221
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Post by brybry on Nov 21, 2023 19:34:52 GMT -5
Learned the hard way, not every rock will take a shine or glass like shine. Since the polish stage isn't done yet, they may get better or may not get much better. Its aggravating to see the awesome when wet but dry pales in comparison.
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Post by rockjunquie on Nov 21, 2023 19:40:36 GMT -5
Welcome from Virginia. Not a tumbler, but plenty here are.  |
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pantagruel
starting to shine!
Member since November 2023
Posts: 34
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Post by pantagruel on Nov 21, 2023 20:07:12 GMT -5
Yes! I'm sure. And I burnished after every stage. Welcome Laura, Are you sure you cleaned the barrels and stones really good between grits, and grits and polish so that there was no earlier grit still left that can scratch the stones? Maybe try burnishing the stones. rocktumbler.com/tips/burnishing/ |
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Nov 21, 2023 20:29:27 GMT -5
Welcome from Northern Arizona!
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jimmie
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since August 2021
Posts: 233
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Post by jimmie on Nov 22, 2023 10:01:01 GMT -5
Don’t over think it. Occasionally you get a few dull ones. Experience helps with choosing rocks. I kissed tons of frogs to get a few good shiny rocks. I’m still fooled once in a while. Keep doing what your doing, time and experience are on your side.
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stefan
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2005
Posts: 14,113
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Post by stefan on Nov 24, 2023 7:45:41 GMT -5
So it is important to know that a steel nail, while a good test indicator (6.5) needs to be scratched by the rock (you need to be able to actually leave a groove on the nail). THis seems a minor distinction, but an important one. A well worn beach stone will have a certain resistance to being scratched easily, so just swiping the nail across it will not produce anything. You need to bear down and gouge the stone. I'm willing to bet that the nail will indeed scratch those rocks. That being said, all is not lost. Make sure to cushion the load well, and run that polish stage. With any luck you will see a nice shine on those. If not they are worth a dry polish attempt. I use crushed walnut shells, but corn cob works very well also. The barrels of the Mini Sonics are surprisingly porous so either get a separate polish barrel, or make sure you clean the daylights out of them (I have a separate barrel for polish).
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dillonf
fully equipped rock polisher
Hounding and tumbling
Member since February 2022
Posts: 1,622
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Post by dillonf on Nov 24, 2023 9:37:57 GMT -5
How long were they in 1000 grit? I have a Lot-O so take this with a grain of salt (actually always take what I say with a grain of salt  ) If I had those in my Lot-O for 2 days I wouldn't be concerned by their look, if I had them in for 4 days I'd expect more of a shine. I agree with all the previous advice. What pepplesky said about the "grainy" nature of the stone I have found particularly true with hounded rocks. If they feel grainy after pre-polish I pull them prior to polish. |
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dshanpnw
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since December 2020
Posts: 1,158
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Post by dshanpnw on Nov 25, 2023 19:25:21 GMT -5
Welcome from Washington state, our state gem is petrified wood. You are definitely on the right track, but maybe not with those stones. I would probably try the polish stage and see what happens. Like Brybry and Jimmie stated above, some rocks will not shine like others. Those look great when wet and that is where I made a lot of mistakes as a beginner. I brought home a lot of rocks because I liked them when they were wet, but they would not take a polish. I would prefer to find my own rocks, but if you were to buy some of the more popular agates or jaspers that are known to take a great polish and use your recipe you would have great results.
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Post by jasoninsd on Nov 26, 2023 18:23:23 GMT -5
Hey Laura! Welcome to the forum from South Dakota! Like others have said...some rocks refuse to cooperate!  |
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pantagruel
starting to shine!
Member since November 2023
Posts: 34
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Post by pantagruel on Jan 6, 2024 13:01:34 GMT -5
Welcome from Washington state, our state gem is petrified wood. You are definitely on the right track, but maybe not with those stones. I would probably try the polish stage and see what happens. Like Brybry and Jimmie stated above, some rocks will not shine like others. Those look great when wet and that is where I made a lot of mistakes as a beginner. I brought home a lot of rocks because I liked them when they were wet, but they would not take a polish. I would prefer to find my own rocks, but if you were to buy some of the more popular agates or jaspers that are known to take a great polish and use your recipe you would have great results. What a delay! I had quite a flare, but am doing better... I did try them in polish, and there was some improvement, but not much. I showed them wet, not that I expected them to necessarily get the shine that others were, but so that folks here could get a better look at what the rocks are. I do also have lots of purchased agates, jaspers, quartz family, and more, though I'm still working through stage 1 (I only got my rotary in late November!). Currently working through sardonyx and amethyst (different barrels, of course!). Maybe not traditional first starts, but I'm enjoying it and looking forward to going through rocks from the same batches in a few years so I can hopefully see my improvement! |
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pantagruel
starting to shine!
Member since November 2023
Posts: 34
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Post by pantagruel on Jan 6, 2024 13:14:12 GMT -5
How long were they in 1000 grit? I have a Lot-O so take this with a grain of salt (actually always take what I say with a grain of salt ) If I had those in my Lot-O for 2 days I wouldn't be concerned by their look, if I had them in for 4 days I'd expect more of a shine. I agree with all the previous advice. What pepplesky said about the "grainy" nature of the stone I have found particularly true with hounded rocks. If they feel grainy after pre-polish I pull them prior to polish. I had them in 1000 for 5 days, following a recipe I found in the forum (which suggests 3-5 days for 1000), here: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/post/1269451/threadYeah, re: grainy stones. I've started sorting into more categories of rock for tumbling the more I read and the now I see results after each stage (I look at each rock with a loupe after each stage, which had been really helpful). |
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pantagruel
starting to shine!
Member since November 2023
Posts: 34
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Post by pantagruel on Jan 6, 2024 13:24:14 GMT -5
So it is important to know that a steel nail, while a good test indicator (6.5) needs to be scratched by the rock (you need to be able to actually leave a groove on the nail). THis seems a minor distinction, but an important one. A well worn beach stone will have a certain resistance to being scratched easily, so just swiping the nail across it will not produce anything. You need to bear down and gouge the stone. I'm willing to bet that the nail will indeed scratch those rocks. That being said, all is not lost. Make sure to cushion the load well, and run that polish stage. With any luck you will see a nice shine on those. If not they are worth a dry polish attempt. I use crushed walnut shells, but corn cob works very well also. The barrels of the Mini Sonics are surprisingly porous so either get a separate polish barrel, or make sure you clean the daylights out of them (I have a separate barrel for polish). Yes! I misstated, but yes, the nails did get scratched by the rocks! Bearing down on the nail hasn't been good for my fingers, so my padding attempts failed, a friend got me Mineral Lab's hardness picks, which confirmed my previous understandings of the hardness of my stones. I've started using more non-abrasive ceramic media to rock, which has helped. I'm considering trying out ceramic spheres for polish stages, but not decided. And I do have a separate polish hopper for the mini sonic. Thanks for the crushed walnut/corn cob tip! I'll try those! |
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wseaton
starting to shine!
Member since January 2024
Posts: 30
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Post by wseaton on Jan 6, 2024 19:54:19 GMT -5
I'm a bit of a beginner myself, but after trial and error I've managed to polish pretty much everything I've tried, including various granites, and I see a lot of the same pitfalls here that cost me time. If you handed me those 4 rocks I could spiff them up in 4 days max in my dual harbor freight and I don't care about hardness. I got money on it :-) They are more than ready for a dedicated polish step. The problem is elsewhere.
First, 1000 AO is a waste of time in a rotary. I know 1000-1200 AO works in a vibratory, but I found it useless in a rotary, and 1000-1200 is typically sold in hobby kits. I go from 500 directly to true polish (Rock Shed, etc) and never had a problem getting a respectable shine in a couple days. All 1000 did was waste my time and get stuck in all the cracks of the rock.
These look exactly like rocks run in 1000 AO, and a month from now they wont be any different. When I go from 500 to true polish my rocks aren't nearly as initially shiny as yours, but they polish up super fast in a good dedicated polish (Rock Shed). So, IMO, 1000 is a waste of time. Again, I've done granite, agate, beach rocks etc with my same system and I will never touch 1000 again. Plus, at most I run 500 for 4 days max....typically 3. If stage 3 and 4 combined takes more than a week I have my barrel loaded wrong.
The best media I've found for rotary polishing phase is 1/4" ceramic. Pea gravel the same size works about as well, but the 1/4 is cheap and it's consistent.
The worst media I've found for polishing is other rocks the same size.
Larger ceramic works works really well, but 1/4 works a bit better when final polishing because it has more surface area, and it's more fluid in a 3'ish pound barrel.
Another trick I've found is using at least 50 % ceramic (or pea gravel) by volume compared to rock in stages 3 and 4. This helps keeps things fluid in the tumbler in terms of motion and reduces issues with rocks of different hardness banging against each other. Stage 1 and to a lesser extent stage 2 wants mass of other rocks helping grinding and shaping. 500 onwards is more about surface area.
So, what I would try is maybe try 3 of those stones at a time, fill the rest of the barrel up with ceramic media no more than 3/4 full, and use two heaping tablespoons of true polish. Again, this assume you have a 3lb barrel. If you dont have super shiny rocks in 3 days I will be shocked. And, you can save and reuse the polish because it has lots of capacity.
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Post by Starguy on Jan 13, 2024 14:45:10 GMT -5
pantagruel and wseatonGreat discussion! I kind of take a different approach. While I understand why ceramics are used, I believe they are rarely needed. The money used to purchase ceramics could be used to buy small agates. They work just as well and they stand a chance of turning out attractive. I truly feel ceramics are a waste of time, energy and grit, and they’re not cheap. As you mentioned, the worst case scenario is a barrel full of the same size rocks, (especially medium and large rocks). Ideally there will be smalls filling most of the voids between the medium and large rocks. That will help with the fluid, sliding motion in a tumbler. Rolling and collisions cause damage and a poor finish. I’ve had some success using a standard recipe for my rotaries. While they’re rolling I try to spend a few seconds listening to the barrel. If impacts and clattering are heard, it’s a good sign to add more small agates at the next cleanout. I don’t have any problem sending rocks back to coarse if they aren’t looking the way I expect. For tender rocks like obsidian or crystals, some plastic pellets for cushioning can be helpful in later stages. Good luck. Looking forward to more photos.
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RockyBeach
spending too much on rocks
Member since July 2023
Posts: 342
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Post by RockyBeach on Jan 13, 2024 19:48:22 GMT -5
pantagruelI have found that burnishing between stages and especially after the pre and polish is essential. It's amazing how much still comes off and darkens the water after rinsing and rinsing at the sink. I use a couple of TBs of Borax and a drop of Dawn and a full "tub" of water. Other posters have suggested the Borax and soap with a "dry run" ie just enough water as is used during the various stages. Some rocks simply do not shine but burnishing clears off that smokiness so often left on the shiny ones. I did that final stage on a lot that I had considered finished but I had had not burnished and wow !
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pantagruel
starting to shine!
Member since November 2023
Posts: 34
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Post by pantagruel on Feb 1, 2024 22:25:07 GMT -5
Thanks, everyone. I wasn't able to work on this for a while, but when I recently did, everything has a great polish except one small stone that retained a dull lustre.
I had grabbed all of these from a local lake rock beach, only choose those that could've be started at 220 (at the time I only had the 4lb mini sonic with a second hopper for polish--no rotary here until now recently). Each stage had borax, grit/polish, and burnishing between stages: 220 for 5 days, 600 for 5 days, 1000 for 4-5 days, AO polish for 3-5 days. I added ceramics to keep my hopper to the right level and adjusted speed when needed to keep stones from crashing into each other. At the polish stage, I separated the stones into maybe four groups, keeping all the granites together etc, and made sure to use more of the smaller ceramics than larger so that stones would get more surface area from them. To experiment I purchased ceramic spheres from the rock shed for polish stages, but those haven't arrived yet. I'm really happy with how everything turned out.
I've since gotten a rotary and have a bunch of purchased stone running through 80 grit (+ borax) right now, including a fairly plain looking batch of China Hill Jasper for the tumbling contest.
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