doorcorocks
off to a rocking start
Member since January 2024
Posts: 19
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Post by doorcorocks on Feb 15, 2024 18:11:10 GMT -5
I am not getting any results with my Mini Sonic, that said I know I am the issue not the machine. Nothing is coming out shiny at the end of step 4. At the end of step 3 I think things look ok, but 2-4 days in stage 4 and I would say it looks WORSE. Here is what I am doing. Step 1 is Rotary only. I am taking out rocks once a week and only removing ones that have smooth edges and I am happy with the shape Step 2-4 is in the Mini Sonic. I add poly plastic mixed size ceramic media to make up the difference in rocks so I can get about 3/4 full. For curiosity I weighed the rocks and this last batch (photos) I have a 2:1 ratio of ceramics to rocks but its was really more just looking at it to make sure it was 3/4 full. I am adding media based upon 3 lbs in the hopper (thats about what it is with ceramics). For amount of water I mostly fill up the hopper to get everything wet, then invert the hopper, full of water, rocks, and ceramics and let the water drain (in my hand) so everything is just wet without standing water. I then add the amount of abrasive recommended on the bottle. I then start the tumbling then add a little more water, very very little. I then let it run trying to get a smooth rolling action. I check it every 8 hours ish and add water as needed. I am letting each of these stages (2-4) go for 2-3 days. I would run them through borax at the end if they were actually half way shiny but I havent done that yet photo with the pendants I made were just from my cheap rotary tumbler. I was really happy with the results and was patient enough to let the $50 amazon gift get some good results. I was hoping the vibratory would greatly quicken steps 2-4 Everything in the photos I am bringing back to stage 2 and trying again. Here is a video link of the mini sonic running Any and all advice is helpful as I am still totally new to this and don't personally know anyone in the rock tumbling hobby.      Thanks Paul |
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Post by chris1956 on Feb 15, 2024 19:10:32 GMT -5
Looks like you might be polishing rocks that don't like to polish. I see Petoskey Stones, chain coral, horn coral?, and looks like granite. These are hard to polish although I would have expected a little better shine on the granite. The brown stone on the right side of first pic looks like maybe it is quartzite. The polish on it looks pretty good and they can be hard to polish at times also. I am guessing you are in Michigan somewhere. I would try doing a batch of all white quartz or hard red jasper and see how that turns out.
I thnk you might be a little over full. The mini manual says 2/3 full with media and closer than 2 inches from the top. You might look at the manual for amount of abrasive/polish to use. I think it is more than you need. I have followed the amounts that Rob (Michigan Rocks YouTube videos) uses for the Lot-O tumbler which is a little larger than the mini. I couldn't find the video for some reason but here is the procedure that I originally got from the Michigan Rocks video. Hope this helps. You will have to adjust the amounts of rock and media for the smaller mini.
Lot-O Tumbler Procedure
General
• Pre tumble in rotary tumble using 80 grit or less to point that most imperfections are removed.
• Use 30% ceramics – Rocks to 2 inches from top and then add ceramics to 1 inch from top.
• Add water to tumbler before adding rocks.
• Drain water from tumbler before adding grit. Don’t add more water after draining.
• Check every 12 hours to see if additional water is needed.
• If not rotating in tumbler, move dowel 2 cm from left bolt on metal base (see Michigan Rocks video).
1st Stage
• 2 Tbs 120/220 silicon carbide
• Run 2 days
• Burnish wash with water and borax or dish detergent for 60 minutes
• Clean and repeat wash with water and dish detergent for 30 to 60 minutes
2nd Stage
• 1 Tbs borax
• ½ tsp 500 aluminum oxide
• Run 3 days
• Burnish wash with water and borax or dish detergent for 60 minutes
• Clean and repeat wash with water and dish detergent for 30 to 60 minutes
3rd Stage
• 1 Tbs borax
• ½ tsp aluminum oxide
• Run 2 days
• Burnish wash with water and borax or dish detergent for 60 minutes
• Clean and repeat wash with water and dish detergent for 60 minutes
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dillonf
fully equipped rock polisher
Hounding and tumbling
Member since February 2022
Posts: 1,622
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Post by dillonf on Feb 15, 2024 19:16:02 GMT -5
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doorcorocks
off to a rocking start
Member since January 2024
Posts: 19
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Post by doorcorocks on Feb 15, 2024 19:35:45 GMT -5
Thanks for the thoughts, I really appreciate it. I know some of the rocks and coral are a general no go, but I have them and through them in. In my first go round in the tumbler, all my granite polished yup real nice. I will try taking some ceramic out, see if that does the trick. I also was trying to mirror Rob's process  Looks like you might be polishing rocks that don't like to polish. I see Petoskey Stones, chain coral, horn coral?, and looks like granite. These are hard to polish although I would have expected a little better shine on the granite. The brown stone on the right side of first pic looks like maybe it is quartzite. The polish on it looks pretty good and they can be hard to polish at times also. I am guessing you are in Michigan somewhere. I would try doing a batch of all white quartz or hard red jasper and see how that turns out. I thnk you might be a little over full. The mini manual says 2/3 full with media and closer than 2 inches from the top. You might look at the manual for amount of abrasive/polish to use. I think it is more than you need. I have followed the amounts that Rob (Michigan Rocks YouTube videos) uses for the Lot-O tumbler which is a little larger than the mini. I couldn't find the video for some reason but here is the procedure that I originally got from the Michigan Rocks video. Hope this helps. You will have to adjust the amounts of rock and media for the smaller mini. Lot-O Tumbler Procedure General • Pre tumble in rotary tumble using 80 grit or less to point that most imperfections are removed. • Use 30% ceramics – Rocks to 2 inches from top and then add ceramics to 1 inch from top. • Add water to tumbler before adding rocks. • Drain water from tumbler before adding grit. Don’t add more water after draining. • Check every 12 hours to see if additional water is needed. • If not rotating in tumbler, move dowel 2 cm from left bolt on metal base (see Michigan Rocks video). 1st Stage • 2 Tbs 120/220 silicon carbide • Run 2 days • Burnish wash with water and borax or dish detergent for 60 minutes • Clean and repeat wash with water and dish detergent for 30 to 60 minutes 2nd Stage • 1 Tbs borax • ½ tsp 500 aluminum oxide • Run 3 days • Burnish wash with water and borax or dish detergent for 60 minutes • Clean and repeat wash with water and dish detergent for 30 to 60 minutes 3rd Stage • 1 Tbs borax • ½ tsp aluminum oxide • Run 2 days • Burnish wash with water and borax or dish detergent for 60 minutes • Clean and repeat wash with water and dish detergent for 60 minutes |
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mdjunkie
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since November 2023
Posts: 81 
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Post by mdjunkie on Feb 15, 2024 21:48:19 GMT -5
So far, in my experience with my MT10, you have to go beyond a 4th stage with a micro-alumina, tin oxide, etc. to get a good shine. I was concerned at first with my tumbles not getting shined at the 4th stage also. I had already read as much, but was hopeful none the less. I've even tumbled rocks in my tumbler like granite that have good shine on them too, overall. I've tumbled softer stones but those were disasters, now I try to make sure I tumble harder stones, that makes a huge difference. My method that I'm experimenting with now is: 2nd 120/220 SC for 2 days, followed by a burnish for 2 hrs. (after each cleanout) 3rd 500 SC for 2 days, then I have some 500 AO that I put them in for another 2 days 4th 1500 AO for 3 days 5th Tin Oxide for 3-4 days So far things are looking promising. Of course I'm learning from mistakes I made/make. Good luck with your Mini-Sonic, I think you'll like it very much.  |
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ashley
Cave Dweller 
Member since February 2023
Posts: 937 
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Post by ashley on Feb 15, 2024 22:35:32 GMT -5
doorcorocksI figured you were from up north by looking at what you were tumbling! I am in Illinois and go up north to rock hound and had a cabin in northern Wisconsin. Where are you getting your grit? I don't think you are doing it wrong other than trying to polish things that wont take a great shine. I started out polishing similar things and had similar results. Then learned more about hardness and what will and wont polish.
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ashley
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2023
Posts: 937
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Post by ashley on Feb 15, 2024 22:45:41 GMT -5
This is my recipe when I use the minisonic  |
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doorcorocks
off to a rocking start
Member since January 2024
Posts: 19
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Post by doorcorocks on Feb 16, 2024 7:43:59 GMT -5
I’m on Door County Wisconsin, Sturgeon Bay. Water all around. I appreciate the feedback. Going to try different rocks but will be a few weeks before I have enough for a batch from stage 1. Everything I’m getting is right off the beach. This is my recipe when I use the minisonic |
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doorcorocks
off to a rocking start
Member since January 2024
Posts: 19
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Post by doorcorocks on Feb 16, 2024 7:45:19 GMT -5
Where did you find your 5th stage polish? So far, in my experience with my MT10, you have to go beyond a 4th stage with a micro-alumina, tin oxide, etc. to get a good shine. I was concerned at first with my tumbles not getting shined at the 4th stage also. I had already read as much, but was hopeful none the less. I've even tumbled rocks in my tumbler like granite that have good shine on them too, overall. I've tumbled softer stones but those were disasters, now I try to make sure I tumble harder stones, that makes a huge difference. My method that I'm experimenting with now is: 2nd 120/220 SC for 2 days, followed by a burnish for 2 hrs. (after each cleanout) 3rd 500 SC for 2 days, then I have some 500 AO that I put them in for another 2 days 4th 1500 AO for 3 days 5th Tin Oxide for 3-4 days So far things are looking promising. Of course I'm learning from mistakes I made/make. Good luck with your Mini-Sonic, I think you'll like it very much. |
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iamchris
has rocks in the head
Member since June 2023
Posts: 722
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Post by iamchris on Feb 16, 2024 11:18:14 GMT -5
doorcorocks if you're using polish that you bought on Amazon, it's very likely not a real polish, but something closer to 1200 AO. Most people here buy grit from The Rock Shed or Kingsley North. I also agree with what others have said about trying to polish softer rocks, but your polish media may also be holding you back.
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doorcorocks
off to a rocking start
Member since January 2024
Posts: 19
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Post by doorcorocks on Feb 16, 2024 11:27:37 GMT -5
I’m using the poly plastics 1-4 doorcorocks if you're using polish that you bought on Amazon, it's very likely not a real polish, but something closer to 1200 AO. Most people here buy grit from The Rock Shed or Kingsley North. I also agree with what others have said about trying to polish softer rocks, but your polish media may also be holding you back. |
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iamchris
has rocks in the head
Member since June 2023
Posts: 722
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Post by iamchris on Feb 16, 2024 11:41:33 GMT -5
I’m using the poly plastics 1-4 doorcorocks if you're using polish that you bought on Amazon, it's very likely not a real polish, but something closer to 1200 AO. Most people here buy grit from The Rock Shed or Kingsley North. I also agree with what others have said about trying to polish softer rocks, but your polish media may also be holding you back. Yup, that'll do it. That's where I started too. If you want a good polish, you want this from Rock Shed or this from Kingsley North. The 1200 AO that comes with Polly Plastics is more of a stage 3.5 that you use in between 500 AO and polish when you have very hard rocks. The Rock Shed polish is ~8000 grit and the Kingsley North one is a bit finer. It's listed as a 1-3 micron polish which converts to 7000-22000 grit. Both will greatly improve the polish over the 1200 Polly Plastics. |
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zebra61
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2024
Posts: 161
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Post by zebra61 on Feb 16, 2024 12:01:57 GMT -5
doorcorocks if you're using polish that you bought on Amazon, it's very likely not a real polish, but something closer to 1200 AO. Most people here buy grit from The Rock Shed or Kingsley North. I also agree with what others have said about trying to polish softer rocks, but your polish media may also be holding you back. Agreed! I put my tumbling interests aside based on lousy results years ago. Looking back recently it turns out that the coarse grits I used were just fine for shaping but they completely skipped the pre-polish and went to a 1200 (three stages rather that 4) that never gave me a good finish in the end. Knowing what I know now it's possible that continuing with the 1200 and changing it out every couple of days 'might' have resulted in a better finish but nothing like I get with a good polish like TXP or #61. |
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doorcorocks
off to a rocking start
Member since January 2024
Posts: 19
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Post by doorcorocks on Feb 16, 2024 12:10:21 GMT -5
Thank so much on the polish notes. I actually had the alumina in my cart for Kingsley north. They are located just 2 hours from me and I really want to make a trip up there Any idea why I’d have BETTER results in a rotary with the same poly plastics kit? That’s what is throwing me off. I know I have a lot to learn but I figured doing exactly what I did in the rotary, but in the vibratory would give me at least equal results. I won’t have the Kingsley north stuff in time foe this batch, but I’m running it again with suggestions people have been giving and we’ll see how it goes. For the next batch I’ll have a whole new set from the lortone doing stage one. Nothing like waiting a few weeks to try again I’m using the poly plastics 1-4 Yup, that'll do it. That's where I started too. If you want a good polish, you want this from Rock Shed or this from Kingsley North. The 1200 AO that comes with Polly Plastics is more of a stage 3.5 that you use in between 500 AO and polish when you have very hard rocks. The Rock Shed polish is ~8000 grit and the Kingsley North one is a bit finer. It's listed as a 1-3 micron polish which converts to 7000-22000 grit. Both will greatly improve the polish over the 1200 Polly Plastics. |
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iamchris
has rocks in the head
Member since June 2023
Posts: 722
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Post by iamchris on Feb 16, 2024 17:10:19 GMT -5
Thank so much on the polish notes. I actually had the alumina in my cart for Kingsley north. They are located just 2 hours from me and I really want to make a trip up there Any idea why I’d have BETTER results in a rotary with the same poly plastics kit? That’s what is throwing me off. I know I have a lot to learn but I figured doing exactly what I did in the rotary, but in the vibratory would give me at least equal results. I won’t have the Kingsley north stuff in time foe this batch, but I’m running it again with suggestions people have been giving and we’ll see how it goes. For the next batch I’ll have a whole new set from the lortone doing stage one. Nothing like waiting a few weeks to try again Take my advice with a grain of salt since I'm having similar issues with my latest obsidian batch in my MT-04. But with softer rocks, the intense vibrating action can cause the rocks to chatter against one another if you keep it cranked up to the max. What I've read here (and poorly applied since I still had issues) is that you want to keep the rotation consistent but slow. You don't want rocks flying into one another. Based on what I saw in your video, you have plenty of ceramics to slow rotation so it doesn't appear this is your problem, but if your later stages were run more quickly with a lighter slurry, it could have been possible. It also could be due to whatever mix of mixed-hardness rocks you had in your previous batch, since they don't appear to be uniform. Rotaries are more gentle on rocks at the expense of time and grit, so that could also contribute to your results. Other than that, I'll have to rely on the more experienced tumblers to correct me or provide more insight into why. Also there's nothing stopping you from taking your already done and soon-to-be-completed rocks and tossing them in one final polish stage once your KN shipment arrives! |
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dillonf
fully equipped rock polisher
Hounding and tumbling
Member since February 2022
Posts: 1,622
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Post by dillonf on Feb 16, 2024 20:17:21 GMT -5
I agree with what Chris said above.
I actually polish some softer rocks or rocks prone to undercutting in the rotary to get better results. I agree with his assessment that the type of rocks you have and your polish is most likely to blame for the sub par results.
I've figured out a trick with quartz in the vibe (Lot-O) where I use a tablespoon of tripoli powder and a tablespoon of borax as polish - the reason I do this is that it creates a thicker slurry in the vibe that cushions the stones. The only thing is you have to keep it in the vibe for 4-6 days which is a long time in the vibe. Over that length of time the Tripoli breaks down to polish sized grit. You can find some pics of quartz I've polished this way in my older posts. There are also some other older posts about folks using Tripoli as a polish if you do a search.
It took me a while to get the hang of the vibe. I'd start with something like red jasper to refine your process and the grit you'd like to use. Then try other more difficult types of stones and adjust you methods accordingly.
I include a pre-polish stage (1000 grit Aluminum Oxide) in my method and I believe this stage makes a big difference with most stones except really hard agates where it doesn't seem to make a difference. You will find lots of folks that disagree with this, but that's cool. I don't have separate barrels for every stage, so I think the pre-polish helps alleviate contamination issues. I have one barrel for 220 SiCa, 500 SiCa, and 500 AlOx, then another for the pre-polish and polish stages.
Best of luck.
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adam5
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since August 2023
Posts: 153
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Post by adam5 on Feb 16, 2024 20:31:53 GMT -5
Though I only have experience with one type of vibe (RayTech with UV bowl), I too think the key to good results with a vibe is movement without chatter. Once I worked out the correct amounts of Borax, Dawn soap, and water for my vibe I started getting the results I wanted.
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doorcorocks
off to a rocking start
Member since January 2024
Posts: 19
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Post by doorcorocks on Feb 17, 2024 10:59:55 GMT -5
I love how helpful everyone is, very cool community I made a purchase on The Rock Shed on some grit and powders  My modified plan once arrived is the following: Stage 1 still all happening in the rotary tumblers. Keep the rocks in until they are shaped the way I want and removing the ones I am happy with weekly then on to the mini sonic... 2. Going to keep using my poly plastics 180/220 SC for now until it's gone. I would think that would be fine as it's still pretty coast and we have a ways to goi after 220. Thoughts? 3. then the 500 AO 4. 1000 AO 5. AO POlish (6). TIn Oxide only if I don't get a good shine? I could use some advice on quantities. The courser stages I have been doing one tablespoon per pound contents in hopper (usually about 2). The finer stages I cut that to a teaspoon. I am guessing here. Also could user some clarification on borax. Does it almost always go in each stage? Do I just do a rinse after each stage with it? Thanks Paul |
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Post by chris1956 on Feb 17, 2024 11:35:31 GMT -5
See my original response for the quantities I use in 3 lb Lot-O but also follow for 2 lb Mini. I have used the 2 tablespoons at the 120/220 stage but then cut way back during pre-polish and polish stages as long as you add borax or something else. My understanding from most of what I have read on the forum is that after the 120/220 stage, the borax helps form a slurry quickly which should help the polishing process by keeping the polish suspended. It seems to work. If you don't like using the borax, you might have to use more polish to make that slurry quickly. You can rinse/burnish after each stage with borax but I tend to use dish soap since it isn't toxic to grass and trees like the borax can be.
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zebra61
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2024
Posts: 161
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Post by zebra61 on Feb 17, 2024 11:58:20 GMT -5
I love how helpful everyone is, very cool community I made a purchase on The Rock Shed on some grit and powders My modified plan once arrived is the following: on to the mini sonic... 2. Going to keep using my poly plastics 180/220 SC for now until it's gone. I would think that would be fine as it's still pretty coast and we have a ways to goi after 220. Thoughts? 3. then the 500 AO 4. 1000 AO 5. AO POlish (6). TIn Oxide only if I don't get a good shine? I could use some advice on quantities. The courser stages I have been doing one tablespoon per pound contents in hopper (usually about 2). The finer stages I cut that to a teaspoon. I am guessing here. Also could user some clarification on borax. Does it almost always go in each stage? Do I just do a rinse after each stage with it? Thanks Paul Hi Paul, Looks like you're planning to dial-in a couple recipes for your tumbles. Like you I'm working to tweak my methods and quantities. I'm in agreement that good grits/polishes are highly beneficial to the process and products from the Rock Shed seem to be quite respected in this community. I like the process/method that you laid out but for selfish reasons as it almost emulates what I'm doing right now. I'm interested to see what quantities you decide on when you finalize things. My latest attempt is as follows: 1. Rotary Tumbler with 60/90 SC until I'm happy with the outcome. (Varies widely by hardness & quality) 2. Lot-O with 120/220 SC to soften the surfaces. (The nice part about the vibes is that you can pull a rock or two for inspection) I love that... 3. Lot-O with 550 SC until there's a matte finish that I'm happy with. 4. Mini-Sonic with some off-breed 1200 that I've had laying around for years. Not sure this is helpful but I'm going to use it up anyway. 5. Mini-Sonic with some TXP that I bought recently. (I'll probably use this in place of the 1200 when that runs out) 6. Mini-Sonic with some #61 sub micron polish for a final shine. I'd give you the measurements on each stage but admittedly I'm still playing around with the amounts. Much of this is all new to me so please don't use my methods as a template for yours. I'm convinced there are more experienced tumblers here that could tell me how I'm doing this completely wrong.  They'd probably all be right!! Good luck and let's exchange ideas when you become satisfied. I'm interested to compare notes along the way. Mark |
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They'd probably all be right!! 
