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Post by vegasjames on Apr 1, 2024 22:23:52 GMT -5
I wonder about some of this. I have read plenty of accounts of some pretty rocks being found somewhere and people are excited about it until someone comes along with a backhoe and removes all of it. It seems like that is a bit of a common theme. I don't know how I feel about that. I guess if someone owns the land or has mineral rights or a claim or something that's fine and makes sense. But sometimes the impression I get is it's a public space and someone just robs it blind. I don't know a lot about how any of that works, but it seems strange and sad to me, and I wonder how that affects the cost of some slabs? Have personally experienced this. Too many damn people now days just out to make a profit. No love for the material itself. I have also. For example, took a group of people on a trip to several locations here in Southern Nevada. Knew 2 of the people, but not the rest. One of the spots I took them to was a mine where the opening was covered with orange chalcedony, which is rare, and the top of the mine was all purple chalcedony. The location is remote and virtually impossible to find without being led there. Was driving by a month later, so I swung in. All the orange chalcedony and a large portion of the purple chalcedony had been removed. Being how remote and hard it would be to find the location, I am certain someone that went on the trip went back to clean the spot out.
This is why I am very careful now about who I take to certain locations. For example, the mine where I dig the naturally hard turquoise. I have only taken 4 people there, and all people I knew well and trusted.
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Post by vegasjames on Apr 1, 2024 22:29:00 GMT -5
The millions of years old rock from the ground is there to have, once you own the title or the mineral rights... all rock, minerals and metal ore. Property cost and property taxes and extraction costs are part of the equation... the demand for the extracted material sets the value. For example, Rubies are valuable... beyond the known extraction costs. Yes, high quality natural rubies (red sapphires) are way more rare and massively more valuable than diamonds.
Diamonds don't jump in price until 5 carats. Rubies jump in price after 2 carats.
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Post by Rockoonz on Apr 2, 2024 17:53:22 GMT -5
A lot of people started claiming materials found on public land a few years ago, watched the TV shows and thought it was easy money. Most of those claims have either been abandoned or are just being operated as hobby claims. Turns out the cost to truly operate commercially is a lot more than the claim fees.
If you want to dig with hand tools a claim is relatively inexpensive, of course filing it is an invitation to every thief who watches the BLM and FS websites, but that's a different story. If you want to really dig with tractors and stuff, there are other permits, bonds, and reclamation plans to deal with, my friends who do it have literally hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in some high risk operations. If they gear up for a new mining season and the seam runs out after a few chunks, gone forever, they still are obligated to return the site to "original condition", generally a lot nicer than they found it. And if some government agency or a chinese company that wants to dig a huge ugly lithium pit decides you can't mine it anymore, all is gone. They have even prevented miners from doing the reclamation, then kept their bond because they didn't do what they were not allowed to do.
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Post by vegasjames on Apr 3, 2024 8:16:53 GMT -5
A lot of people started claiming materials found on public land a few years ago, watched the TV shows and thought it was easy money. Most of those claims have either been abandoned or are just being operated as hobby claims. Turns out the cost to truly operate commercially is a lot more than the claim fees. If you want to dig with hand tools a claim is relatively inexpensive, of course filing it is an invitation to every thief who watches the BLM and FS websites, but that's a different story. If you want to really dig with tractors and stuff, there are other permits, bonds, and reclamation plans to deal with, my friends who do it have literally hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in some high risk operations. If they gear up for a new mining season and the seam runs out after a few chunks, gone forever, they still are obligated to return the site to "original condition", generally a lot nicer than they found it. And if some government agency or a chinese company that wants to dig a huge ugly lithium pit decides you can't mine it anymore, all is gone. They have even prevented miners from doing the reclamation, then kept their bond because they didn't do what they were not allowed to do. Yes, I looked in to getting a claim on an old abandoned mine where I get the naturally hard turquoise. Talked with BLM who first told me I was not responsible for the reclamation on the pre-existing work. Then they later changed that to I was responsible for that reclamation when I asked again to confirm. That alone could have been at least a million dollars. Then they said I had to pay a mine inspection fee, a mining safety course, then if I wanted to work on the road to the mine there would be permits and fees for that. It would cost more just to get started than I could ever make.
I feel BLM does this more to block mining by small operations. They have put some long held family claims out of business here in Nevada by hitting them suddenly with massive, ridiculous reclamation fees.
There is also a case here in Nevada where someone found rare earth metals on his claim and the BLM came in an immediately shut him down. The only active rare earth mine in the U.S. is just over the Stateline in California and is owned by the Chinese.
All these National Monuments they are forming and expanding are not protecting anything either. If you check the maps they go off every which direction encompassing every old mine out there so they cannot be reopened. Mojave National Preserve in California, which was expanded fairly recently and the Avi Kwa Ame (Spirit Mountain) National Monument here in Southern Nevada are great examples. Neither were formed to really protect any plant or animal, they just encompass all the old mines in these areas.
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Post by Rockoonz on Apr 3, 2024 10:13:48 GMT -5
vegasjames good thing you didn't claim it, the claim makes the site visible to everybody who knows where to look. On the other side of the coin, if you want to "legalize" what you collect there so it can be sold, you need the claim. The BLM has a lot of turn over on who manages their local offices, you might ask the same question to the next guy and get a different answer. The giant rare earth pit proposed for the NV/OR border seems like the total opposite of how it goes for us little people, my friend with some claims in that area has had some "offer you can't refuse" messages sent his way by some of the players in that game. For once I'm thankful for the tree huggers and others banding together to try to stop that one, an unusual collection of allies. I have another friend in the Portland club who has been going to all the BLM meetings for years and has been able to befriend many who we would call opposition and educate them on the difference between the small operations and the corporations. She probably deserves some of the credit for this alliance.
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realrockhound
Cave Dweller 
Chucking leaverite at tweekers
Member since June 2020
Posts: 4,495
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Post by realrockhound on Apr 3, 2024 10:42:27 GMT -5
So glad I do all my heavy mining on private property 😂
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RWA3006
Cave Dweller
Member since March 2009
Posts: 4,633 
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Post by RWA3006 on Apr 3, 2024 15:11:52 GMT -5
I feel the pain of people trying to buy slabs, rough, etc. but I can tell you from experience as a guy who's done a lot of hounding and selling that I can't begin to imagine making much profit selling this stuff. I sell a bit and do it only as a hobby and to make space I need for other things. Even if I raised my prices to fall in line with others, I'd take a beating on the bottom line. That's why there's so many rock shops that have died and even then, they had to have another iron in the fire to keep going.
People who have never sold a large amount of slabs or rock can't even begin to imagine how much time and money it takes to harvest the material, sort and grade it, store it, cut it, market it, package it, ship it, ad nauseum. That doesn't even factor in the overhead costs of the business infrastructure. If it was a lucrative business there would be more people doing it and it sure appears to me that the glory days of rock hounding and lapidary are gone.
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Post by vegasjames on Apr 3, 2024 16:17:07 GMT -5
vegasjames good thing you didn't claim it, the claim makes the site visible to everybody who knows where to look. On the other side of the coin, if you want to "legalize" what you collect there so it can be sold, you need the claim. The BLM has a lot of turn over on who manages their local offices, you might ask the same question to the next guy and get a different answer. The giant rare earth pit proposed for the NV/OR border seems like the total opposite of how it goes for us little people, my friend with some claims in that area has had some "offer you can't refuse" messages sent his way by some of the players in that game. For once I'm thankful for the tree huggers and others banding together to try to stop that one, an unusual collection of allies. I have another friend in the Portland club who has been going to all the BLM meetings for years and has been able to befriend many who we would call opposition and educate them on the difference between the small operations and the corporations. She probably deserves some of the credit for this alliance. Yes, I am aware that a claim makes it visible to others. The mine could be listed for copper ore or copper minerals instead of turquoise though, which would make it less interesting to high graders. And it is not an easy spot to reach anyway. The road is not passable except by maybe an ATV, and therefore it is a steep hike up and back with any digging tools and what is mined.
One other thing I was told by BLM and was confirmed twice is that a claim is not required for mining. The claim simply gives exclusive rights, just like a patent for an invention. Therefore, according to what they are saying, a claim is not required to sell the material either. In fact, in order to get a claim, you must first prove there is something there valuable enough that the prudent man could make a profit. In order to prove that, material would have to be sold to prove there is a market and the value. Thus "exploratory mining", such as prospects that i done without a claim and the material being legally sold proving value and marketability.
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Post by Rockoonz on Apr 3, 2024 19:44:42 GMT -5
vegasjames good thing you didn't claim it, the claim makes the site visible to everybody who knows where to look. On the other side of the coin, if you want to "legalize" what you collect there so it can be sold, you need the claim. The BLM has a lot of turn over on who manages their local offices, you might ask the same question to the next guy and get a different answer. The giant rare earth pit proposed for the NV/OR border seems like the total opposite of how it goes for us little people, my friend with some claims in that area has had some "offer you can't refuse" messages sent his way by some of the players in that game. For once I'm thankful for the tree huggers and others banding together to try to stop that one, an unusual collection of allies. I have another friend in the Portland club who has been going to all the BLM meetings for years and has been able to befriend many who we would call opposition and educate them on the difference between the small operations and the corporations. She probably deserves some of the credit for this alliance. Yes, I am aware that a claim makes it visible to others. The mine could be listed for copper ore or copper minerals instead of turquoise though, which would make it less interesting to high graders. And it is not an easy spot to reach anyway. The road is not passable except by maybe an ATV, and therefore it is a steep hike up and back with any digging tools and what is mined. One other thing I was told by BLM and was confirmed twice is that a claim is not required for mining. The claim simply gives exclusive rights, just like a patent for an invention. Therefore, according to what they are saying, a claim is not required to sell the material either. In fact, in order to get a claim, you must first prove there is something there valuable enough that the prudent man could make a profit. In order to prove that, material would have to be sold to prove there is a market and the value. Thus "exploratory mining", such as prospects that i done without a claim and the material being legally sold proving value and marketability.
BLM rules say "personal use only" when it comes to unclaimed public land. I have heard lots of variations on a theme of supposed loopholes that allow for sales to fit into that description, but also interpretations as strict as to say it's a crime to have an estate sale of the stuff granddad collected 50 years ago. If I bought some of it would that also be a problem if I sell it? Never underestimate the potential in public servants. A recent former member here publicly attacked a rock club for not grilling all their show vendors when he discovered one sold material collected on a public site. He may still visit, looking for material for his next attack video. Be careful. Our club up north has 2 thunderegg claims, value is pretty relative since maybe one in 5 isn't a mudball. They are very basic gemstone claims, costs very little to keep them, but hand tool mining only. |
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realrockhound
Cave Dweller
Chucking leaverite at tweekers
Member since June 2020
Posts: 4,495
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Post by realrockhound on Apr 3, 2024 23:00:10 GMT -5
Can anyone explain to me why homeboy deleted all his comments?
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Post by jasoninsd on Apr 3, 2024 23:04:00 GMT -5
Can anyone explain to me why homeboy deleted all his comments?  |
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Post by Son Of Beach on Apr 3, 2024 23:33:30 GMT -5
Can anyone explain to me why homeboy deleted all his comments? Best guess, a small beef earlier in the day led to mass exodus.
I hope he stays FWIW.
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Post by jasoninsd on Apr 3, 2024 23:38:48 GMT -5
Can anyone explain to me why homeboy deleted all his comments? Best guess, a small beef earlier in the day led to mass exodus.
I hope he stays FWIW.
406 posts...400 of them deleted... |
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Post by Son Of Beach on Apr 4, 2024 0:59:03 GMT -5
Best guess, a small beef earlier in the day led to mass exodus.
I hope he stays FWIW.
406 posts...400 of them deleted...
@hefty COME BACK
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Post by rockjunquie on Apr 4, 2024 5:51:24 GMT -5
Can anyone explain to me why homeboy deleted all his comments? Best guess, a small beef earlier in the day led to mass exodus.
I hope he stays FWIW.
Will you PM me with why you think he did that? |
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Post by vegasjames on Apr 4, 2024 6:39:22 GMT -5
Yes, I am aware that a claim makes it visible to others. The mine could be listed for copper ore or copper minerals instead of turquoise though, which would make it less interesting to high graders. And it is not an easy spot to reach anyway. The road is not passable except by maybe an ATV, and therefore it is a steep hike up and back with any digging tools and what is mined. One other thing I was told by BLM and was confirmed twice is that a claim is not required for mining. The claim simply gives exclusive rights, just like a patent for an invention. Therefore, according to what they are saying, a claim is not required to sell the material either. In fact, in order to get a claim, you must first prove there is something there valuable enough that the prudent man could make a profit. In order to prove that, material would have to be sold to prove there is a market and the value. Thus "exploratory mining", such as prospects that i done without a claim and the material being legally sold proving value and marketability.
BLM rules say "personal use only" when it comes to unclaimed public land. I have heard lots of variations on a theme of supposed loopholes that allow for sales to fit into that description, but also interpretations as strict as to say it's a crime to have an estate sale of the stuff granddad collected 50 years ago. If I bought some of it would that also be a problem if I sell it? Never underestimate the potential in public servants. A recent former member here publicly attacked a rock club for not grilling all their show vendors when he discovered one sold material collected on a public site. He may still visit, looking for material for his next attack video. Be careful. Our club up north has 2 thunderegg claims, value is pretty relative since maybe one in 5 isn't a mudball. They are very basic gemstone claims, costs very little to keep them, but hand tool mining only. "Personal use" applies to rock hounding, not mining. Exploratory mining is still mining. |
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RWA3006
Cave Dweller
Member since March 2009
Posts: 4,633
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Post by RWA3006 on Apr 4, 2024 8:35:47 GMT -5
Best guess, a small beef earlier in the day led to mass exodus.
I hope he stays FWIW.
Will you PM me with why you think he did that? I guess he didn't appreciate that many of us did not validate his OP on this thread. I know I didn't feel too sympathetic to his complaint of slab prices. Too bad, I liked his jade keys and his contributions to RTH. |
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ThomasT
has rocks in the head
Member since June 2022
Posts: 616
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Post by ThomasT on Apr 4, 2024 8:57:02 GMT -5
It appears that Hefty has left the forum completely.
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Post by Rockoonz on Apr 4, 2024 10:44:15 GMT -5
vegasjames my friend who manages the claims and paperwork for Johns literal scores of claims hasn't seen the rule loophole that allows sales without a claim. Not saying something doesn't exist, but since anyone who might try to take advantage of it is going to need that rule, can you point me to it? There are some rules specifically for minerals and metals, but applying them to materials that can be ores that you have no intention of processing as ores is not going to fly, even with a friendly BLM manager.
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Post by catmandewe on Apr 4, 2024 10:55:03 GMT -5
Wow, thats weird.
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