stonesnbones
spending too much on rocks
Member since September 2007
Posts: 255
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Post by stonesnbones on Oct 3, 2007 16:18:20 GMT -5
Connrock,maybe I missed it,may I ask what type of torch your using and tip sizes?I also have a inexpensive book suggestion,its a quick reference guide I still use all the time due to failing memory :oIts titled.....The Jewelers Bench Reference by Harold O'Connor.
Brad
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Post by flintfish on Oct 3, 2007 17:16:37 GMT -5
Man alive - That is a labour of love Connrock! Excellent handywork, a true piece of art! The rope twist work is really intricate yet very even, nice job Sir, and I like the branching arms holding the butterfly aloft, that's a really neat piece of design. As I was once told - For anything to be truly worthwhile, there must be "some" difficulty in obtaining it! I try to remember this when that damn fish I've been chasing for the last 1/2 hours turns away from the fly again! ;( he he he I always enjoy hearing how these works of art are constructed, and it sounds like I'm going to be listening for a good while longer before I start hankering after a torch and some silver! Good Job Connrock! Looking forward to seeing some more Thanks for sharing your trials and tribulations, it's a great help to learn what it's all about. Cheers, Harry.
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Post by connrock on Oct 4, 2007 6:23:57 GMT -5
Brad, I have a couple of torch set ups. I have The Little Torch oxy/acetylene outfit with I think 6 tips and also "B" tanks with the air/acetylene Prestolite torch with tips from 1a- about a 6 or so.
Not knowing which outfit would be best I bought the Little Torch and was gifted the regulators for the low pressures needed for it.
I was then told by a silversmith to get rid of it as it's main purpose is for repair work and to use my Prestolite set up with a #1 or #2 tip.
I don't know if I just spent a lot of time already getting used to the Little Torch before I tried the Prestolite but I had nothing but trouble with the Presatolite so I went back to the Little Torch!! WOW that was a mouth full!
I "really" think I could do a LOT better if I had heavier (thicker) silver to work with.
The bracelet became easier as the silver got thicker and the pieces of solder could be see with the naked eye.When I had to use magnification to see what I was doing all hell broke loose.
Even a simple hand movement is very difficult to get used to under magnification.I would try to move a piece of solder 1 mm and end up knocking the entire work piece on the floor!
I've said it before that this intricate work I'm trying to do is not for beginners.I need some "meat n taters" not these tasty little treats!
I have 2 books.One is an older book, Jewelry Making Step By Step For Amateur Craftsmen by E. E. JOACHIM (LLB,JD)
The other is a much newer book ,Complete Metalsmith by Tim McCreight.This book also came with 2 dvd's that I can't get to run!!!
I also have a set of teaching "hand outs" from a man who teaches silversmithing and was nice enough to give them to me free of charge!
I've read and watched videos on the web as well.
I think I have most of the theory of it down fairly well but it's the practical application that's killing me.
I AM NOT a book person but rather a hands on person.If I can see it in most cases I can do it but reading about it aint my cup of tea!
You can read all the books in the world on how to ice skate but until you get out on the ice and take your "lumps" you will never learn how to do it!
I HAVE learned a lot by reading books and from people like you who have tried to help me.I'm just stuck on the "doing" part!
connrock
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Post by connrock on Oct 4, 2007 6:42:33 GMT -5
Harry, Thanks for the kind words!!
The "rope twist" is a actually a solid wire that can be bought in different gages. This wire was very small and gave me headaches working with it.
I first had to anneal it and quickly found out that it melts VERY fast!After scrapping 2 pieces I finally succeeded on the 3rd. It took me almost 5 hrs to shape it and get it to lay flat. As I was trying to sand the bottom of the piece to get it flat for a good solid solder joint the butterfly "migrated" SOMEWHERE in my shop never to be seen again!!! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!! That was it for that day!! Scene 1,take 2!! I managed to shape it and got it to lay flat the next day but soldering it onto the main butterfly opened a whole new chapter in my adventures of silversmithing! You could NEVER know how difficult this is to do without actually trying to do it yourself! I must give a LOT of credit to the professional silversmiths in the world as they are truly artists with a torch!!
I'm beginning to believe that "you can't teach an old dog new tricks"!!But you CAN teach how to growl!! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!! LOL
Thanks again for your kind words Harry!
connrock
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stonesnbones
spending too much on rocks
Member since September 2007
Posts: 255
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Post by stonesnbones on Oct 4, 2007 8:12:42 GMT -5
connrock,I like you have a prestolite and lil torch.I use the prestolite for heavy jobs,beltbuckles and such.All my jewelry work is done with the lil torch,I would not listen to that other fellow,the lil torch is best for the hobby craftsman.Now I personally went with the propane oxygen set up.
from what I have read of your comments so far,I still suggest getting a heating tripod,they are usually 5 to 6 dollars and make life easy when doing different complicated settings.
Also another question are you using different solder hardness for your projects.........and yet another suggestion,use clipped solder rather than wire.
Brad
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Post by docone31 on Oct 4, 2007 9:23:28 GMT -5
It is about heat control. When I do work like that, I use a propane torch from Ace Hardware. It costs 14$. I use an heating pad, either wood, or asbestos wannabe. I also use wire solder, hard only. I cut the wire into 1/16" pieces, ball them up, and set them in place. The Prestolite is for melting, the little Torch with Acetylene and the #4 tip is good for most silver smithing work, on an heating pad. Another trick with the twisted wire, solder it into the shape, then tack it down in two places. Then make your adjustments. The flux will "fluff" and push the pieces around, while it is hot, use your solder pick to move the pieces back and the melted flux will help hold them down. Mainly it is practice. When I teach students, I always get them to melt copper wires first before they actually solder. When they can control the melt, they can solder. You did real good on the bracelet. This is what silversmithing is all about.
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Post by connrock on Oct 5, 2007 7:23:04 GMT -5
Brad, I think when you mention a heating tripod you are referring to one of those things with the adjustable arms and alligator clips?
I am using different temp solders and have learned that the snipped solder works better yet it is a real pain to pick up and put where I want it.
A lot of the clipped solder I'm using right now is coming from the coils of round solder I already bought.I don't have a lot of money to play with so I just try to use what I have now and then order the correct materials.
Thanks again for your interest and help. I really appreciate it!
connrock
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Post by connrock on Oct 5, 2007 7:37:35 GMT -5
Doc, My brain doesn't always work at full capacity so I'm a bit confused here,,,,,,,
"When I do work like that, I use a propane torch from Ace Hardware. It costs 14$. I use an heating pad, either wood, or asbestos wannabe. I also use wire solder, hard only. I cut the wire into 1/16" pieces, ball them up, and set them in place. "The Prestolite is for melting,"
I don't understand the Prestolite is for melting.
I've been trying to use a titanium solder pick as you suggested but it seems everything is happening so fast I can't keep up with it.When I go to move a piece of solder back to where I want it while trying to control the heat,,,,,Yeeeeooooowwwww!!! Before you know it 2 or more pieces of solder have moved and I haven't even got the first on set! I'm busier then a one armed paper hanger!!!
Thanks so much for all your help!
connrock
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Post by docone31 on Oct 5, 2007 18:27:04 GMT -5
Hi Conrock, this is Julie, Doc's wife.
I really can't use a solder pick yet, I still use tweezers with plenty of flux under the solder so it stays stuck. I've only managed to get the solder to stick to the pick a couple of times and then get it where I want it. Doc lOVES picks, and he can use the pick, holler at me, keep an eye on the torch, and scan the shop all at the same time. NOT ME, however.
You can use a lead pencil to get solder to a joint, I've tried that, and it works pretty well. Another jeweler we know does that. The lead makes the solder stick to the spot you want it on.
Big thing for me with getting joints to stick- your a welder so you probabaly already know it, is watch the color or the silver, when it's bright red, boom- the next thing the solder flows OK. Even for me, using tweezers and tons of flux. Doc says that it's graphite in the pencil, and it acts as a de-oxidizer. Whatever, it works.
I melt stuff when I get chicken, and I don't heat enough to get stuff to flow, but just enough to create lots of firescale. I HATE firescale. Nasty nasty nasty stuff. Then not matter what I do there is so much firescale it can't get the solder to flow. Also I get chicken heating the piece, and it too a long time to learn what color to loof for. So I would make a lot of firescaale, but not get the joint, and still melt the piece.
Argh!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good luck, I liked the bracelet, no matter what, when you make it yourself, it's never as good as you wanted it to be.
Julie
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Post by docone31 on Oct 5, 2007 18:42:51 GMT -5
Tom, I use my Prestolite for melting for my casting. It produces a great deal of heat over a fairly wide area. I can also use the simple plumbers torch I get at Ace. It is just slower. The main issue with soldering silver is to use back heat. With gold, the heat is localized, with silver, it is like copper, the heat travels through the piece, then, the joint heats up. When I first started, I used a 2 X 12. I cut it 12 X 12. When I first started to heat the joint, I flamed around the piece, then, brought the heat into the area to be soldered. With detail work, this really helps. The other method I used was to heat from below. I used a third hand to hold the piece, then heated from below. Both methods work. A soldering pad is great, but I do not like the smell. Customers really like the flames from the 12 X 12. It smells like a burning pine tree. The other method is to use flame heights. Unless I am melting, I almost never hold the flame so close it is in the light blue cone. As you noticed, small items on silver melt rather quickly. I tack down the items at random places so the heat is spread out. After the original soldering, I heat from below to pull down the extra solder and recapture the detail the solder washes out. The other thing I do is run my solder through my rolling mill. I take .018 down to .002. The smaller piece of solder actually works better than flooding the joint. This takes practice however. It is going to be different from your experience at welding. More like Heli-arcing aluminum than sticking steel. Also, try using beeswax to hold the stones prior to setting. Fingers are not made to hold them stones and put them into the settings. Beeswax really does the job. Take some, form a long cone. Use the tip to pickup the stones and set them into the settings. I am setting 22 .80mm diamonds tomorrow at the shop. These will be forged settings. Someday, I bet you will be able to do that. I am using a .75mm setting burr. I have to "wobble" the bit to fit the stones, then forge the setting down to the girdle, then chase the rim with a #52 graver. Soft flame, keep the heat on, watch the metal for colour, keep fluxing. I also use Pool PH Reducer instead of Sparex. It is quicker, less expensive, and I like the cleaning ability on flux. Good luck, keep the heat on. Doc
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Post by connrock on Oct 6, 2007 5:24:43 GMT -5
Hi Julie, I was going to try a pencil to move the solder but I thought the graphite would contaminate the joint.Come to find out it's just the opposite!! Go figure!
I've become so paranoid of melting everything that now I'm not getting a full joint! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!No fire scale though!!!! LOLThat stuff is nasty to get off!
Thanks for the "tip" on the pencil!
connrock
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Post by connrock on Oct 6, 2007 5:46:53 GMT -5
Hi Doc, You mentioned before about using the 12x12 but doesn't it give off an awful lot of smoke? I'm working in y basement and figured I'd smoke up the whole house doing it.
Thanks for the info on how to "recapture" detail.I knew there had to be a way to do it but had no idea how!
I have 3 third hands but they are the cheap ones and don't adjust all that easy.I noticed the one you use looks much better but it's kinda expensive.
Those little snips of solder are driving me up a wall.First I can't pick them up.Then I can't get them to where I want them without saying the jewelers prayer at least 3 times.Then I can't get them to stay when the flux melts and pushes them everywhere but where I want them! Would it be OK for me to heat the piece until the flux turns clear and them add the solder? I know you're probably thinking.Why doesn't this dummy just try it" but I don't have much to play with right now and ANY mistake = scrap and I can't afford that!
When we were "downsizing" at work we closed our metallurgy dept.I was sent in as a pipefitter to shut off gas,oxygen,ammonia lines ,etc and remove them.There were a lot of other tradesmen there doing their thing and I noticed one of the electricians wrapping a bunch of scrap copper wire with what looked like silver solder! Show nough that's what it was!I gave him some bailing wire and took "his" wire from him.I also noticed 3 cigar boxes with cut sheet silver solder along with a few rolls of sheet silver solder weighing about 1 lb/piece! Among them was 1 roll that had a very silver look to it. I dug these "prizes" out of the archives yesterday and the silver stuff is still VERY silver.I didn't mike it but I'd venture a guess it's around 0.005"-0.007" thick.Is there any way Ican tell if it's silver or silver solder?
Thanks again for allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll you help!!
connrock
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Post by docone31 on Oct 6, 2007 16:37:28 GMT -5
The 12 X 12 does give off smoke. It has kinda like a barbeque odor, it goes away with time. With the solder and the pick, cut the snippets, put them on an heating pad, flame them and touch the pick to the pieces. Then transfer them to the work where it goes. The melted flux will hold them in place for the most part. The best way to test metal, at least for me, is to melt it, then burn it. The residue showing on the heating pad gives an indication of what it is. Brass leaves a yellow residue, gold filled melts, looks like gold, then turns black. Silver solder, when heated and burned, will turn black. When it is pickled it turns silvery. Too much silver solder and the casting turns grey with pitts. You'll get there. I definately understand being gunshy on heating the piece. Just figuire, if it melts, just start from scratch. You will not be the first one.
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Post by connrock on Oct 7, 2007 8:15:08 GMT -5
Doc, OK as usual I'm confused,,,,,,,,again,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,better make that still! Don't forget that your talking to a silversmith "vegetable wannabe" here! LOL When you have the snippets on the heating board are they fluxed? I hate to ask this ,,,,,What does "flame them" mean?I hope I said that quiet enough so no one else could hear it! I was trying the "sweating" technique we spoke about yesterday and all was going well until the last joint!Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!It was on the inside radius of the cross and I melted it to where there was only a thread like piece holding the whole thing together. Amazingly there was no fire scale so I put in the pickle pot.I took it out for a "repair job" and I shocked myself when I managed to use high temp solder to "form" the radius again!The reason for the high temp solder is because I still have to solder the piece that was originally being soldered! Did that make sense?? LOL There's a lot of solder to clean up and reform but at least this time I don't have to throw it away!At the rate I scrap silver I'll soon need a 30 yard dumpster to hold it all!! I have 2 types of flux.One is the white paste and the other is a liquid flux/pickle. It seems that when I try the flux/pickle I get black residue on the silver after soldering and have to sand it off.Is this normal for this type of flux?Am I doing something wrong? Should I even be using it? Doc I know I'm keeping you from your work by asking all these dumb questions but your helping me is almost like sitting in a classroom with you being the instructor and I REALLY appreciate it. PLEASE DO NOT feel obligated in ANY way to answer me as I understand how busy you are and I don't want to impose on you. Thanks again for all your help. connrock
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Post by docone31 on Oct 7, 2007 17:50:43 GMT -5
Shoot Tom, ain't no biggee. The hard black spots that the pickle does not clean up is contaminated flux. What are you using for pickle, what are you using for flux. I suggest only hard solder for all silversoldering. I find it easier to do all types of work. Using a solder pick. Cut some solder, the smaller, the better as you are beginning to see. Put the solder on the heating pad. What is an heating pad? That is a small piece of non-asbestos material that the solder is put on. Basically, it is an high heat material that protects table tops when soldering. Flame the solder. That is when you take the flame of the torch, using only the end of the flame, start heating, then bring the flame down to the snippet. It will ball up and while it is liquid, touch the tip of the solder pick to the ball. Remove the flame. The ball will cool onto the tip of the solder pick. Then bring the flame to the piece to be soldered. The flux will "fluff", at this point, put the ball of solder into the joint. Keeping the heat on the area, remove the pick. The solder will remain fairly close to where you want it. If not, take the tip of the pick and push the ball to where you want it to go. Now comes the fun. Flame the work. That means to use the flame to evenly heat the piece, bringing the tip down ever closer untill you see the flux turn clear liquid. Watch the heat on small pieces. Use the flux to be an heat channel to heat the solder. Too much heat will eliminate detail on the small pieces. By the by, there is only about 75* difference in melting points of hard, medium, easy solders. Hard solders discolour the same as sterling. At 1400 *, it makes absolutely no difference whether you use easy, or hard solder. Mythology has us using solders in progressive melt temperatures. I have just done too much silversmithing to pay much attention to that. I use PH Reducer for pools as pickle. I like it a lot better. It is so strong, it will actually eat the inside out of gold filled leaving only the outer karat gold. I use a crock pot at low temperature. Great stuff. Walmart carries it, so does Home Depot. I really like Batterns for flux. It is great on gold, silver, and copper based alloys. Hey, once I get my camera up, probably on Wednsday, I will take a picture of a ring I just set 10 .075 diamonds in. Someday, you will be there also. Anytime I can help.
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Post by connrock on Oct 11, 2007 4:52:45 GMT -5
Hi Doc, Sorry for the late reply but I've been laid up a bit. I use Handy flux and a pickle from Geeswein,a local distributer.It's their brand although they carry all different brands of pickle. www.gesswein.com/catalog/home.cfm?CFID=896350&CFTOKEN=84770634I had the solder pick application all wrong but after your explanation I can now see how it can work well!! Thanks!! I may try to do a little today as I'm feeling much better but I don't want to push it yet! Thanks again Doc, connrock
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