electricface
starting to spend too much on rocks
First fish of the day
Member since August 2012
Posts: 211
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Post by electricface on Sept 13, 2012 9:29:39 GMT -5
After almost 3 weeks of 60/90 I have nothing. I ran the first time for 8 days and had pits so I poured off some slurry topped off with stones and recharged. I ran the next run for 11 days and now have huge cracks and lots of chips in the stones. The slurry looked like gravy like suggested by many. I did forget to take a pic of it so can't help there. However I took a pic of the stones uncleaned so you can see the grit in the cracks because my camera isn't strong enough to get real close.This is my first batch and I almost don't want to continue with any of it. I still have 0 stones ready for 120/220 and at the rate I'm going I'll never have anything cause they are all cracking and chipping. Please any advice or help is greatly appreciated.
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herchenx
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2012
Posts: 3,360
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Post by herchenx on Sept 13, 2012 9:51:12 GMT -5
What I see is that this is a somewhat normal batch. It just takes time. If you are getting a lot of chipping you can fill in some of the gaps in the load with smaller media, plastic pellets, tile spacers from the hardware store, smaller rocks or what have you. I think chipping is usally the product of too-aggressive tumbling. I see both agates and quartz in here, and that usually results in bashing up some quartz for me.
I would encourage you to try the idea I mentioned a week or so ago about finding a recipe on here and sticking with that one for a while.
I got impatient when I started back in January. The only way I could speed things up was with volume - so I have >100# of capacity in tumblers now, and even with that I don't usually get a new batch every 2 weeks. It just takes a while to get these things to smooth out so they can look really pretty.
I think you have just the one 3# tumbler, right? I think you just need to adjust your expectations. Lortone had me thinking I'd be seeing shiny rocks in 3 weeks, in reality my first decent batch took almost 2 months, and that was with a vibe tumbler for stages 2-polish.
Hang in there man, I know it's frustrating when you have one set of expectations and it doesn't work out.
Lots of people do this though, and you can too - and do it well - you just need to stick with it.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Sept 13, 2012 10:02:45 GMT -5
sorry to hear your frusration. The best advice I had gotten as a newbie was to start with a nice easy batch of rocks that were all one type. After you get to know the quirks of some of the different stones you can figure out what will tumble well together. The first thing I notice is you have stuff like banded amethyst and quartz running with rocks that will cuase chips and fractures in them. If your using a 3lb barrel they look like they are rounding off pretty good for the 3rd week. I average 6-8 weeks in 60/90 for my 3lb barrels. My only other guess would be the possibility of an under filled barrel cuasing a more violent tumble that is chipping some of those.
chuck
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Post by FrogAndBearCreations on Sept 13, 2012 10:31:46 GMT -5
I save all my little bits and pieces to go in with my larger stones as it helps with the grinding and somewhat cushions them from chipping and cracking each other up in the first grind process
I also hold back some of the thick sludgy stuff from what I took out so the slurry is not watery thin which also help in the grinding process as it will stick to the stones that your tumbling better
I never let it get thinner or thicker than a good pancake batter consistancy
that is what I save some of the old sludge from previous tumbles for to thicken when needed and water for thinning when needed
I let my batches run for up to a month for the harder stones too, don't even check them until at least the 4th week of tumbling
want to add here that you should never hear the stones clunking and clicking on each other as that means you either have a under filled barrel or not enough small bits in with the larger stones. It should be a even sound of the stones rolling on each other
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Post by Bluesky78987 on Sept 13, 2012 10:36:17 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm no expert tumbler, but I hear your frustration. Two issues, as pointed out above:
1. Agates and jaspers can take up to 3 months in rough if you want them nice and smooth. 2. That looks like standard "tumbler mix", but you'll notice Howlite (a 3 or something) and Amazonite (I don't know, but soft) mixed in with Agates (7) . . . recipe for disaster -- rocks of different hardnesses.
I'd get a few pounds of all one type of rock -- an easy one, not obsidian, not soft rocks like fluorite or calcite, not ridiculously hard rocks like carnelian -- and start again.
What does everybody think is the easiest type of rock to get good success with early on? Pretend you're buying from the Rock Shed today. I've been wondering about this question for awhile.
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Post by FrogAndBearCreations on Sept 13, 2012 10:37:53 GMT -5
if your picture represents your load then you don't have enough tiny stones to help with the grinding
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Post by susand24224 on Sept 13, 2012 11:11:12 GMT -5
I second and third what everyone has said. The quartz should not be tumbled with agates and most jaspers. They are the same hardness, but the quartz is brittle and chips and "spalls" easily. The turitella agate also is softer. If the green rock is amazonite, it is softer as well. Also, some of the flaws you are seeing are likely flaws that were always there, but the smoothing off is making them more visible.
The spalling around the agate sort of center and one row above the bottom indicates either bad "smashing" process when the rock was sized for tumbling or possibly spalling from collision (I doubt this, though). Several cracks that I see are from poorly prepared rough--I would rebreak them along the crack with a hammer and chisel since they simply won't go away.
Oftentimes, though, the cracks don't look as bad after polish--wet the stone, and determine your own tolerance level.
Your rocks are smoothing well, so it doesn't look like the slurry is a problem. When I tumble, I start each run fresh, without slurry from the previous run, so your slurry alone will not cause these problems. I see the benefit of carrying over slurry, but I'm lazy and want a good look at each stone between each batch.
I also agree that if that is all you have in the barrell you need smaller stuff to help carry the grit. This can be ceramic pellets (really compressed aluminum oxide) or plastic pellets, or any number of permutations you will find on this board. My preference is ceramics.
You do not need ceramics to protect agate and most jaspers, but at least for me they are almost essential with the quartzes.
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Post by FrogAndBearCreations on Sept 13, 2012 12:06:00 GMT -5
since I slab and preform I have many pounds of small scrap stone pieces that I use in my grinding for filler
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Post by Hard Rock Cafe on Sept 13, 2012 12:45:59 GMT -5
I agree with what others have said regarding mixed hardness rocks. Lake Superior agates are a good first load because they polish easily.
Having said that, they also chip and fracture if you don't have a full load. So, keep your barrel about 3/4 full with water to the bottom of the top layer of rocks.
Others have mentioned the need for small stuff, I thought I would clarify a little: about 1/3 of your load should be pea sized or smaller. If you don't have rocks that size, use filler as herchenx mentioned.
Hope that helps! Chuck
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cardiobill
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since March 2012
Posts: 879
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Post by cardiobill on Sept 13, 2012 12:54:37 GMT -5
I feel your pain.
However now you have a decision to make. Keep them going in coarse grind for a while or try and get them shiny and move on to something else.
I think those particular rocks may take months to smooth out and you will probably never get rid of the pits. I don't think they will ever be what you want them to be.
You can clean them the best you can, use a toothbrush and clean out the pits/ cracks and move them on now and see what happens. Things move much quicker once you get past the rough grind. Some of them may shine up pits and all (but they may not as well). I was pretty anal about pits cracks in the past but am somewhat less so now. I have seen some really shiny rocks on this board with large pits and cracks.
Once your done with whatever you do start fresh with some good rocks as others have said- same type/ hardness. You will get much better results. I sometimes cut/ shape rough with a tile saw before I begin tumbling to take out the obvious defects. This really speeds things up.
If you don't have access to any good rough PM me and we can get you something better to work with.
I know it is frustrating but don't give up, you will be rewarded with a nice shiny batch once your done
Good luck Bill
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Post by deb193redux on Sept 13, 2012 14:38:02 GMT -5
get the load balanced with mostly smaller stones. folks tend to put mostly stones of similar size, and mostly stones too large for a 3lb barrel. you can have 2-3 this large, but the small stones do the abrasive work.
see how much difference a week with smaller stones makes.
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Post by talkingstones on Sept 13, 2012 18:27:22 GMT -5
My first batch in the Lortone was a disaster!!! It really upset me too because I had some serious stuff I was working and I really wanted to know what would happen to the stone AND have it work out. In the end, I realized that, while I am the embodiment of patience, waiting months for a rock that might or might not work out was not a workable solution for me. Enter the Vibe. I got a Lotto. I do a lot of preforming on wheels and some tumbling in the vibe for stuff that I really don't want to do the grind time on. I do still do the Lotto's, mainly when I want to cut the grind time on freeform stuff, but if you really need your stuff done in a week, a vibe is the way to go and Rock Shed is the place to get one. I'd write Shawn there and tell him what's up.
Biggest advice here is to not give up and remember to keep it fun! If you're not having fun with it, something needs to change!
Cathy
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The Dad_Ohs
fully equipped rock polisher
Take me to your Labradorite!!
Member since September 2012
Posts: 1,860
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Post by The Dad_Ohs on Sept 13, 2012 21:42:05 GMT -5
from what I see of your batch, some of those rocks can be put aside to go on to the next step. I do agree that it can take multiple weeks to tumble rocks, but is it necessary?? not really, it depends on what you're working with, your level of experience, and how you like the look of the rock at each stage. (some of my rocks have white bands in them that held some grit, I cleaned them as best as I could and tumbled them as is, they have .... character!! lol
A rough grind is really only to shape and begin smoothing the rock. This stage also removes the out layer of matrix, schist, crud, whatever you want to call it, from the rock, removes sharp edges and gives an over all roundness to the rock. The Medium stage is where the rock really begins to smooth out and you see the form you can expect at the end. (remember that every step is still using grit and will grind the stone/rock while tumbling, just the degree of grind changes with each grit, finer grit less grind.) The pre-polish stage is where you begin to remove the scratches picked up during the grinding phases of steps 1&2. The polish stage is where you get the final piece with gloss & shine. this step can take from 2 days to a week or more... again, it depends on what you get and how you like it. my petrified rock came out really nice, to me anyways, after 3 days in polish. still has most of its original shape but oh-so-smooth and glossy, a satin finish which is desirable to me.
Another step is burnishing, but I haven't gotten into that yet myself, just working thru the first 4 steps for now and will try burnish later
Suggestions as far as a more balanced or single type of rock for your first batch??? 1) Sodalite 2 Quartz - clear or white 3) Amethyst 4) Adventurine (sp) 5) petrified Wood - one of my faves to tumble... so easy to work with I have not had any problems with these even when mixed together in a single 3lb barrel. I fill the barrel about 2/3 to 3/4 full of rocks & ceramic media, if needed, add grit, then add water to just below top layer of rock or until you can just see it in barrel, seal and let it go, check after 3 days to see progress, then button it up and let go for a week total, rinse it, check it, remove any you think are ready for next step, add more media or rock, and continue until you have enough for 2nd step, and do it again this time with med grit.
The harder the rock the longer the tumble!! found that out the hard way with sapphires and garnets!!! (4 weeks and then I said enough... will try them later!!lol, yeah you guys were right!!)
Anyways, that's my take on tumbling, and yes, I am still new to it, but I am really enjoying myself and the people here have been outstanding and patient too!! I have faith in ya !!
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electricface
starting to spend too much on rocks
First fish of the day
Member since August 2012
Posts: 211
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Post by electricface on Sept 13, 2012 22:21:11 GMT -5
Thank you everybody for your input. After hearing everything I think I had 2 main problems. 1 - not enough small stones or filler. Almost everything I put into the load was probably too big to be tumbled together and I know for a fact I had noting the size of a pea or even close. 2 - mixed hardness. I looked at my stones after reading everyones post and even though I don't know how to test the hardness of the different stones I did notice some simply looked softer, kind of grainy and more rounded than the others. Sort of.
I have the mixed bag of stones about 4lbs, citrine 5lbs and 8lbs of amethyst. All of it probably too big by itself, but with some pellets or by breaking some of it I may have a chance. I don't feel like I have wasted my time now. Simply learned something new. I will save the mixed bag and what I just tried to tumble until I can identify hardness and have enough of any one type. I will tumble either some citrine or amethyst with definitely a variety of sizes and some pellets.(I have those) I'm sure I was expecting too much out of my first attempt. I'll have to go easier on myself this time around. lol Thanks again for everyone's input and encouragement.
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jspencer
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since March 2011
Posts: 929
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Post by jspencer on Sept 13, 2012 23:28:10 GMT -5
Most rock books list the hardness of each type of rock in a general overview. And the first thing I spotted was no smalls in the batch also as others have. The rocks need to roll in the tumbler not go thrashing around dropping down on top of each other.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Sept 14, 2012 5:42:13 GMT -5
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The Dad_Ohs
fully equipped rock polisher
Take me to your Labradorite!!
Member since September 2012
Posts: 1,860
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Post by The Dad_Ohs on Sept 14, 2012 8:21:14 GMT -5
Most definitely used something small to help carry the grit around the rocks, I use ceramic filler I got thru the rock shed, I use a combination of their large and small and clean it with the rocks and move it from grit to grit except for polish, then I used plastic pellets as the course grits will chew right thru the plastic. Best of luck to ya, keep asking questions, its the only way to learn and please post some pics of your next batch, start to finish so we can all share in it!!
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electricface
starting to spend too much on rocks
First fish of the day
Member since August 2012
Posts: 211
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Post by electricface on Sept 14, 2012 14:20:49 GMT -5
I feel a lot better having an idea of what went wrong. I just started a run of amethyst and citrine. I'll check it and a couple days to make sure everything is looking fine. Then let it run for a while. I was clueless about how to load the barrel first time around but have a better idea now. ......whew........... Fingers crossed.
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The Dad_Ohs
fully equipped rock polisher
Take me to your Labradorite!!
Member since September 2012
Posts: 1,860
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Post by The Dad_Ohs on Sept 14, 2012 21:00:01 GMT -5
here we see a nice piece of bloodstone in the process of being tumbled.... to be continued!!
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The Dad_Ohs
fully equipped rock polisher
Take me to your Labradorite!!
Member since September 2012
Posts: 1,860
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Post by The Dad_Ohs on Sept 14, 2012 21:00:46 GMT -5
Here we see a nice piece of bloodstone about to be ruined.....
To be continued....
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