robsrockshop
has rocks in the head
Member since August 2012
Posts: 715
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Post by robsrockshop on Jul 24, 2013 18:27:00 GMT -5
Seems to be some knowledgeable people around here so here we go again lol.
Let's say you have an idea for a mechanical device. Don't really think it's the next millionaire idea so not worth the headaches and expense of a patent. So question is could you make a drawing of it and have the 'concept' copyrighted or would all that accomplish is copyrighting a drawing of it?
I have a few ideas to work on, one actually is a drawing and a popular one at that that I have a copyright pending on so more on that later.
Another one...........let's say you have a device that fits onto a tool that's already in existence. For example..........some kind of attachment that say would fit onto the end of a crecent wrench. This isn't the actual case but it's similar and thousands of guys are using it and there's no patent on it. Just don't want to call crecent wrench and say heh look here........then ill get screwed. Any ideas?
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phoenix1647
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2013
Posts: 186
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Post by phoenix1647 on Jul 24, 2013 18:40:30 GMT -5
You can copyright any document, drawing, picture etc...but not patent them.
patents are for items only. You can't "patent" an idea or thought. If you wish to patent an item, contact a patent lawyer and ask about the procedures and costs involved. From what I've heard, getting a patent can be very costly and time consuming.
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robsrockshop
has rocks in the head
Member since August 2012
Posts: 715
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Post by robsrockshop on Jul 24, 2013 19:15:51 GMT -5
Correct..........costly and time consuming.
So if I have a drawing of tool A and copyright it does that protect it or can someone come along and patent the tool in the drawing and declare the rights on it is what im asking.
I do know that it's first come first serve as the patent office regardless of who's idea it was.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2013 19:19:11 GMT -5
Copywrite seems to be automatic. It's yours as soon as you can document the date of the "copy". I am told if you want to patent a device, that a good attorney and successful issuance will run in the neighborhood of $15,000. Then you can go on sharktank! I found a good attorney here once.
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Post by orrum on Jul 24, 2013 19:22:53 GMT -5
There is a way to patent or copyright or something like that where you get paid for your invention by the procduct amount using the object produced. Example is a aquantience of mine had a lawyer do that to a swedge thing he invented to set teeth in large sawmill circular blades. I really dont understand that but hey itsvworth investigating it.
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Post by orrum on Jul 24, 2013 19:23:42 GMT -5
There is a way to patent or copyright or something like that where you get paid for your invention by the procduct amount using the object produced. Example is a aquantience of mine had a lawyer do that to a swedge thing he invented to set teeth in large sawmill circular blades. I really dont understand that but hey itsvworth investigating it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2013 19:30:50 GMT -5
Orrum the patent still must be obtained. The companies that do it for you are many times ripoffs. Be careful!
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Post by deb193redux on Jul 24, 2013 19:46:33 GMT -5
Correct..........costly and time consuming. So if I have a drawing of tool A and copyright it does that protect it or can someone come along and patent the tool in the drawing and declare the rights on it is what im asking. I do know that it's first come first serve as the patent office regardless of who's idea it was. as long as they make their own drawing, the can patent the gadget. you only copyright your expression, not the idea. patent can be on a device or process. it needs to be novel, specific, and described in detail you can sell an attachment for something even if it is attaching to a patented thing, but if somebody else patents your idea, you need to stop
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Post by vegasjames on Jul 25, 2013 5:27:14 GMT -5
Seems to be some knowledgeable people around here so here we go again lol. Let's say you have an idea for a mechanical device. Don't really think it's the next millionaire idea so not worth the headaches and expense of a patent. So question is could you make a drawing of it and have the 'concept' copyrighted or would all that accomplish is copyrighting a drawing of it? I have a few ideas to work on, one actually is a drawing and a popular one at that that I have a copyright pending on so more on that later. Another one...........let's say you have a device that fits onto a tool that's already in existence. For example..........some kind of attachment that say would fit onto the end of a crecent wrench. This isn't the actual case but it's similar and thousands of guys are using it and there's no patent on it. Just don't want to call crecent wrench and say heh look here........then ill get screwed. Any ideas? First thing I would recommend is to get the design drawn up then go down and get the papers notarized so you have a provable date of conception. The reason for this is patents are generally issued to the person showing the first conception, not the first filing. S o you need proof of date of conception. Some people believe that you can mail a copy of the design to yourself and leave the enevelope sealed and the postmark acts as the date of conception. Not true. No Court has ever upheld a sealed envelope as a date of concept since envelopes can be opened without evidence of tampering. So keep an inventors journal with the entries notarized or otherwise witnessed and do not leave blank spaces on pages. Any unused space on a page of an inventor's journal needs to have a line drawn across the unused space. And again, type up a separate copy of your actual invention, which is separate from your notes and concepts of the inventor's journal, and get an original notarized. Keep this in a real safe place. The act of writing up the idea and making drawings for it does constitute a Copyright, but unless filed officially with the Copyright Office you will not have actual full Federal copyright protection. Basically you will only have basic protection rights. You can file for a patent on your design without having the actual device. This is just a different kind of patent known as a design patent rather than the utility patent you would get for an actual device. Here is a link explaining the differences: www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/taf/patdesc.htmYou can also get additional information from the USPTO site and can do a basic patent search: www.uspto.gov/patents/resources/types/From what I have heard in the past the USPTO site will not give you an in depth search of patents. You need to go to a patent depository for that or hire an expensive attorney who will send their assistant to the patent repository to do the same thing. There are various patent depositories around the country. Still the USPTO site should be your first stop. Do a search for your idea regardless. If the idea has already been patented and shows up in the search then no need to hire an attorney unless you have an improvement on the idea. If the idea does not pop up then re-check in a depository or hire an attorney. Or you can go the "poor man's way" for a patent application. In short you will be doing the work yourself, which actually is not hard at all. Just really redundant. Anyways, if the idea does not pop up on the USPTO search and you cannot get to a depository or have the money to hire a lawyer then put the patent application together and just file it. may sound like a waste of money at first glance, but think about this. If you hire an attorney to do all the work it is going to cost around $10,000-15,000 by the time they do the patent search and put together the paperwork just to file. And there is still no guarantee the idea will receive a patent. The same idea could be in a patent pending status and thus will not come up in the search or the Patent Office may not consider the idea unique enough or a sufficient improvement to issue a patent. If you do the paperwork and searches yourself then file, even without a depository search, if the idea has already been patented or is in patent pending status it will still be denied but at least you are only out the filing fee, but not the outrageous lawyer fees. I think the filing fee is somewhere around $200-300, which is a lot less than you would pay an attorney. And again it really is not a hard thing to do. There are various books you can get from NOLO Press for example that will guide you step by step through the patent process. The books are like $25 each. They are well worth the investment. There is so much more that you will need to know, which can fill a book, which is why there are books on the subject. For example, a U.S. patent will not protect you worldwide. You will also need an international patent, which still will not protect you 100% since some countries, such as Taiwan, do not recognize U.S. or international patent law. And big companies will try to screw you over. I had a friend who sent Mattel an idea she had for a toy. They took the idea and ran with it even though it was her conception and thus illegal for Mattel to patent the toy. She did not have the money to take them on. As another example, another friend of mine got screwed over by Crocs recently. She had an attorney and had obtained a federal copyright, trademark, etc. Crocs took her idea and filed for an international copyright, trademark, etc. on her concept cutting her out of the royalties on their overseas sales. The lesson here is to cover your bases!!! If you approach a company with the idea then you should definitely get an attorney and have the companies you approach under strict non-disclosure non-compete contracts before they see the product and what it can do.
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robsrockshop
has rocks in the head
Member since August 2012
Posts: 715
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Post by robsrockshop on Jul 25, 2013 6:56:26 GMT -5
Cool thanks for the suggestions. Some of my ideas are rock related, some not. And some of it is def not worth throwing 15k at wondering if it will work. A neighbor friend has an idea, called a patent lawyer and they want $10k and he said the lawyer was all gung ho about the idea. I told him of course he was he's going to make money rather or not you do.
This is the same neighbor who's daughter is an artist that sells drawings (who to I don't know) and recently got paid $2k for one. I didn't see the check but I don't think he'd lie about it. He started talking about how he thought my sketch on his fridge could be worth something, it's something i've drawn on outhouse walls for over 20 years, so it's now copyright pending lol. Rather or not I make $ I don't know but it is kind of catchy it seems and would be fun to own it even if it doesn't.
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Post by vegasjames on Jul 25, 2013 7:09:35 GMT -5
Cool thanks for the suggestions. Some of my ideas are rock related, some not. And some of it is def not worth throwing 15k at wondering if it will work. A neighbor friend has an idea, called a patent lawyer and they want $10k and he said the lawyer was all gung ho about the idea. I told him of course he was he's going to make money rather or not you do. That's for sure. Most attorneys can care less about their clients, they are in it for the money. I forgot to also add, if you use anyone to help put the idea together including people who provide ideas or actual work in building it they are supposed to be listed on the patent making them owners of the patent as well. The way around this is that anyone who participates must be a work for hire. In other words, if you need a part made and you have a machine shop make it they do not have to be listed on the patent since they were hired to produce the item. They were not voluntary participants in the creation of the idea or its production. Therefore, if you talk to anyone about the idea and they are going to contribute make sure they are either a work for hire or sign a waiver to any rights just so you don't end up in a future legal battle if things take off.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2013 11:27:04 GMT -5
good advise James! rockon!
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Post by helens on Jul 25, 2013 18:58:24 GMT -5
You start with a patent search. That is FIRST before anything else. You need not give anything about your concept away to do this, and you might be floored to actually find patents that improve on your concept in the patent office. It's a fun fun fun place to spend a few months. In DC, you are able to look at the original, often 100+ year old documents... incredible history.
Believe it or not, in the last 100 years, nearly everything mechanical/functional has already been patented except new tech stuff. Anything already patented obviously makes your patent unpatentable, so the search has to include patent office of every nation on earth.
You can obviously find patent info at the patent office in DC, but a lot of cities also have patent libraries... not sure if ALL patents are online yet, but they may be. Used to have to do it in person.
IF you do not find your concept already patented, you file with drawings, abstract, field of invention (just take a look at an existing patent for format) no need for a prototype at all, only need drawings and description. Of course... these need to be so detailed, that's the reason for the functional prototype.
Utility patent is the toughest.... after you file, a US Patent Officer examines your patent... and digs up every single obscure patent you can imagine to fight with you about.
When I was younger, I wanted a Utility Patent... just one of my 'goals in life' because it was so hard to get. Living in DC when I was in school, I had full access to the entire US Patent Library... you would not believe how many concepts are already patented. It's challenging to qualify for a Utility Patent, vs a Design Patent. Anyway, I got one after verbally defending my patent from the Patent Examiner/Officer over 4 Patents, 2 US and 2 European, and being able to convince him that not only was it different in concept, it was different in utility, size and purpose You'd better have the debate skills of an attorney, and your attorney really can't do this for you. If I didn't do it myself, I would have lost. Extremely interesting process.
It cost $12,000 in 1994 (process begun in 1992), today, it would be way more than $15,000, paying for the Patent Attorney and the technical artist, I'd guestimate $20,000-$35,000, not counting prototype. Now the Patent is good for 17 years, but what no one tells you is that every 2 years, you have to pay a fee to keep it updated. If you fail to pay the fee, you lose your patent rights, and it's open for anyone to access.
If you get one for the bragging rights, what you are really doing is releasing the 'secret' into the public realm, in exchange for 17 years of marketability (may be different for drug patents, never looked into that). So the real purpose of it is bragging rights, a sense of accomplishment and TO release it into the public, and the idea never getting lost... corporations spend huge sums stealing ideas from old patents. When you're young and have money, it's a fun way to run around feeling like a genius, not many UTILITY patents are granted (most patents are design patents).
If you want to do it for money, shop the prototype first with a venture firm or corporation, because 'owning' the patent is very expensive in fees alone, let alone fees to defend your patent should it be breached.
But I gotta tell ya... there's very few feelings of accomplishments comparable to getting your patent certificate and owning the title of "inventor" from the US Gov't. If you can pass the patent search (this is the absolutely hardest part), you SHOULD patent it. Money cannot buy that sense of accomplishment, so do it if you can.
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jamesp
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Posts: 36,557
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Post by jamesp on Jul 25, 2013 19:47:30 GMT -5
Georgia Tech has a patent library. So there are a good many patent lawyers here in Atlanta. I talked to one. I was impressed with his honesty. If he will work on a percentage he may be your best ally. Or partner w/an invention company. It costs a lot. And is often a waste of time. If you get into a battle the man w/the best lawyer and most money will win every time. I have had engineer friends that required 1 percent of profits from company he worked for on invention he comes up w/on their clock.
I had a professor that invented a/the door damper working for a company. He retired fat on 5 percent of profits at a young age. He was useless and had no cares. We loved him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2013 22:43:35 GMT -5
In response to Helens wordy but valuable information; I offer google patent search. Google has a special patents search for this www.google.com/?tbm=ptsShe's right. It's a ton of fun. You can see all sort of crazee fun stuff. Like Jacques Cousteau's original patent for the scuba diving regulator....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2013 22:47:25 GMT -5
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Post by helens on Jul 26, 2013 0:22:08 GMT -5
And I'm in the same record book with Bell, Edison, Ford, etc etc... even as a minor mention, its immortality. The plaque is nice to add to my wall. I highly recommend the self-congratulatory back-patting I got to do for decades. Not to mention that I feel I did something for generations of children from all the subsequent stealing of my idea the large corporations got to do. LOL!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 26, 2013 8:42:49 GMT -5
I see a niche for you Helen. You have many talents. Arguing politics and judicial fairness is not one of them.
Impressive patent document. I am glad that you retired from arguing and stirring the forum. We are all better for it.
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robsrockshop
has rocks in the head
Member since August 2012
Posts: 715
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Post by robsrockshop on Jul 27, 2013 6:47:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the ideas/suggestions.
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grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Jul 27, 2013 7:44:11 GMT -5
Wow Helen, that is cool. After all the time, brainpower and money you invested to get it, sucks to get ripped off by the fine print and have others get to use your idea. I own the 100 year + old family brand, and have to pay fees every ten years to keep it.
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