WilliamC
spending too much on rocks
Member since August 2003
Posts: 416
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Post by WilliamC on Aug 12, 2003 10:52:08 GMT -5
Greetings All, I have just bought a rock tumbler (Lortone QT66) for my son (age 5) and I to start using as a hobby. We just set up our first load last night, using some green aventurine we purchased from the same store as the tumbler. We have about 20 lbs each of green and red aventurine and lepoardskin jasper and about 15 lbs of rainbow obsidian, so we have enough to keep us busy for a while. In fact, I can see another QT66 being bought in the very near future, and if I really get hooked I may end up buying a 40-pounder or so. I look forward to participating in this group since it is good to know there are others out there with rocks in their head For now I do have one question, how easy have people found it to be to trade polished rock for more rough? I'm just in this for a hobby now but if it is possible to get rough for finished rock it would go a long way to making it less expensive. Oh, I live in North Mississippi, not too much in the way of interesting rock to be had for the collecting, although the wife and I are already thinking about future vactions with rock collecting in mind. WilliamC
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jdmaney
off to a rocking start
Member since August 2003
Posts: 16
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Post by jdmaney on Aug 12, 2003 13:59:47 GMT -5
That's great!!!
I am in the same position about lack of sutiable rock. I am a Boy Scout leader and my son and I just started although I had a tumbler when I was young. As far as rock collecting... the only thing hard in Central Florida is traffic and the rain!!! I have a place in the mountains of NC but I still have a lot to learn on what to look for in rock hunting. My big problem is finding any hobby shop around here that has this stuff.
Great idea on trading the polished rock. Check any privatly owned craft shops .....
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Post by docone31 on Aug 12, 2003 20:55:20 GMT -5
Wow, what an opportunity for the five year old! I got started later in life, and wire wrapping polished stones led to cabbing, cab equipment, gemstones, faceting, silver working, gold working, and jewelery design. Flea markets are a great place to find rocks, most vendors purchase their rough and will piece it out. A simple grinding wheel with a cup of water will help you shape the rough, or what is called pre-form. If you look on search, for About.com Geology, you will find a fascinating site. I am in southern Floriduh, and folks come to my shop, and just give us stuff. Most is absolute chaff, but some is workable. We started out with one bag of polished stones we paid too much for, and now we have to travel in a Van for our rough and supplies. I started not knowing the difference between lapis, and agate, and now I teach lapidary and sell lapidary equipment. You might be developing a career for your son you and he might be able to share. Good luck for both of you. Doc
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WilliamC
spending too much on rocks
Member since August 2003
Posts: 416
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Post by WilliamC on Aug 13, 2003 16:33:08 GMT -5
Greetings All, Thanks for the replies. To JD, it sounds like we are at about the same level of beginner-ness, and both of us have kids we want to share the hobby with. I am hoping to teach mine a bit about how to work towards a goal and the patience required to create something. I wish you luck in introducing lapidary to your Scouts. As for a local rock shop, the closest to me are in Arkansas, about 3 hours away. I've noticed in the magazine Rocks and Minerals a dealer out of Miami, I know it's not that close to Orlando but I'd imagine it's big enough to have something. But it seems there is much rough for sale on the internet, especially ebay, and when I get ready to buy some more I'll be asking peoples opinions about dealers. There is some beautiful blue chalcedony at www.greatrough.com that I am considering, now if I can just convince myself (and my wife) to spend ~400 to get 30 lbs or so To Doc, thanks for the suggestion about Flea Markets, there is a very large permenant one in Mobile, AL and next time I'm down there I'll check it out. There's also a few "junk" shops that I've thought about before, now I'll make sure to visit them. I don't know that I'll make a career out of lapidary, but I am wanting to get into making spheres and eventually even faceting, and to teach my son as I learn. For now though we'll stick to the tumbling and see how it goes. WilliamC
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WilliamC
spending too much on rocks
Member since August 2003
Posts: 416
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Post by WilliamC on Aug 16, 2003 14:00:30 GMT -5
Greetings All, Yesterday we took the load of green aventurine out of the first stage (7 days w/ 80 grit), washed off the rocks, and gave them a looksy. What a difference a week makes! My 5 year old was actually quite impressed. But despite the eagerness to proceed I decided to give the rocks a few more days with a fresh charge of 80 grit, just to smooth over some uneveness and wear away a bit of discolor (reddish, rust looking) that is still on the surface of some of the larger pieces. So they will be in the 80 grit for 3 or 4 more days. Alas there has been some loss of material so I might not have enough to properly fill the 2nd stage barrel. Don't want the rocks chipping, so I think I'll start one more load of green aventurine next, give it 2 x 5 days at 80 grit, then have plenty to move onto stage two with. Of course this means that I'll have to be getting more 80 grit next week, and another QT66 wouldn't hurt either, but that will be next month Anyways, I'm enjoying this, and I think my son is too. Will keep yall posted on the progress. WilliamC
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WilliamC
spending too much on rocks
Member since August 2003
Posts: 416
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Post by WilliamC on Aug 20, 2003 17:09:02 GMT -5
Greetings All,
Just an update, we have a second batch of the green aventurine going in the first stage and will take it down this weekend. The decision then will be whether to go ahead and combine it with the first batch and start the second stage or to give it a second run in the first stage just as I did for the first batch. Since I have some pretty big pieces in there a second run with coarse grit will be the wise thing to do, I'll just have to avoid the temptation to rush things. Patience will have to prevail. I'm now thinking the next machine purchase will be a QT12 instead of another QT66, they are the same frame but I already have two extra 6lb barrels and I can see the advantage of being able to start more rock in the first stage. I can also see there is plenty of tumbling ahead with the rough we already have, but that just gives me more time to save up for the next purchase of rough. ;D
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Post by hurk 03 on Aug 21, 2003 0:16:19 GMT -5
hey there williamc ...getting back to the loss of volume problem this is where the plastic pellets come in handy instead of running another batch of roughs through add pellets until barrel is 2/3rds full at stage #2 this will get you to a final product quicker I usually lose 1/3 volume in the first stage hope this helps HURK
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donwrob
has rocks in the head
Member since June 2003
Posts: 509
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Post by donwrob on Aug 21, 2003 6:38:13 GMT -5
Hi guys, good suggestion Hurk. I did the same thing WilliamC is doing on my first run and it was murder waiting for them to get done. I ordered a 5# bag of the pellets so I can fill and make up a load from now on. It makes sense to use them also as a buffer to help cushion the rocks while polishing. My tendency was to hurry them along, just human nature I guess, you really have to fight it. I think the first load you run is the worse. I admire your patience William. I also ordered some more aggressive grit to help the rough grind out. The 46-70 SC. I'm hoping that it will shape the rough quicker and to more desirable shapes than I got with the 60-90 grit. Well, I'm sure it will as I'm going to run the 60-90 as the second step. Hey, I just extended by another week! Oh well, I won't be chomping at the bit as much this load as I now know the more time spent grinding, the better the final results will be. ttyl, Don
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WilliamC
spending too much on rocks
Member since August 2003
Posts: 416
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Post by WilliamC on Aug 21, 2003 14:03:10 GMT -5
Greetings All, Thanks for the suggestion Hurk, I'll order some plastic beads tomorrow when I order 5 lb buckets of grit and polish. I had been thinking of using them for the polish stage since that's where it seems problems with chipping arise. As far as being patient, well, it was a year after deciding to get into the hobby before I actually bought the rock tumbler and rough, since I didn't want to start small and we had some debt to get rid of first. But it was worth the wait as I was able to get exactly what I wanted. As for the first stage grit, I think I'll take your advice, donwrob, and go with the 46/70 since I am starting with rough I've broken myself and the pieces are quite angular. Oh yes, I just let myself get a bit happy and purchased 30 lbs of blue aventurine off of Ebay ;D. Of course now I'll have to tell my wife I just spent another hundred dollars on rocks when I get home Who knows, I may be sleeping in the storeroom with the tumbler tonight......thank goodness it's not too noisy WilliamC
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Post by hurk 03 on Aug 22, 2003 11:24:38 GMT -5
William and Don you may be able to omit the 80 grit stage and jump to the 220 just run stage 2 for 10 days with a charge after 5 days the other option is run the #45 for 4-5 days then do your 80 for the usual 7 days the difference between 45 and 80 is no where as drastic as 80 to to 220 and each step is designed to remove the scratches from the previous step when I experiment with grits I like to think about sanding wood if i was to use a 45 grit sand paper and had 220 next it would take twice as long or more to remove the scratches than if i had started started with 80 keep in mind that this is an experiment and some times they don't work out Let me know how things turn out and its a good idea to keep a log of the stones you tumble ie. stage1 grit and lenth of grind, stage 2 grit and lenth, and so on and hardness of the stone 7 moh so you can refer back to it in the future HAPPY TUMBLING HURK
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WilliamC
spending too much on rocks
Member since August 2003
Posts: 416
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Post by WilliamC on Aug 26, 2003 16:20:02 GMT -5
Greetings All, Just an update, we have the second batch of green aventurine going through the first stage for the second time now. Saturday, finally, we will put up a second stage batch and, if the 5lb buckets of grit I ordered from Dad's rockshop are in, we'll put up the last of the rough green aventurine in the first first stage run. I am now absolutely convinced that I need another tumbler, unfortunately my wife isn't so I will have to wait a few more weeks before buying a 12 lb machine By that time the blue aventurine should have arrived, so I'll have to decide between starting with that or with the red aventurine I already have. I have started to do a bit of reading up on the minerals that impart the color to the quartzite which makes it be aventurine (except for the feldspar aventurines of course). As far as I can tell the only aventurines commonly sold as rough are green (fuschite mica), red (hematite/goeshinite), and blue (dumorteirite). I've read that there exists yellow, grey and possibly pink aventurine as well, but I'm guessing they aren't common enough to be used for lapidary. Maybe I'll just have to get some samples for collecting.....anyway, there is an excellent introduction to the science behind coloration in minerals to be found at: www.minsocam.org/msa/collectors_corner/arc/color.htmNeat stuff! WilliamC
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Post by docone31 on Aug 26, 2003 20:50:41 GMT -5
For a newbie, you sure found a dynamic site. WAy cool. I have read the color origination, shift dynamics, and metallic internal colorization. I am in awe. In my shop, I have to answer questions from tourists. We call them Q-Tips, as that is all one can see as they run you off the road, blue hair, no head, large auto, breaking the law, giving the universal thank you one finger salute. These folks come to us and ask questions, and try to get you to look stupid, just for fun. I have been able to learn some incredible new things about what I do, and I feel good. I facet aventurine, and jade. It looks good. Let me know how your tumbles turn out. I wire wrap, and gold solder, and If you get some great pieces I might be able to tell you how to wear them. Great site find.
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WilliamC
spending too much on rocks
Member since August 2003
Posts: 416
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Post by WilliamC on Aug 30, 2003 21:11:50 GMT -5
Greetings All, Finally got a batch of green aventurine going in the second stage grit today, this is grit I got when I purchased the rock tumbler and is in a bag labled "medium" so I don't know exactly what grade it is. But this first time through is a learning experience so it'll work. I did some thinking while I was looking at the rocks before putting them into the second stage. I had run two batches through coarse grit twice, the first batch 1 x 7 days and 1 x 5 days, the second batch 2 x 7 days. I could tell that the rocks weren't really perfect, that is some were quite smooth with no surface cracks or pitting, but the majority do have visible cracks, pitting, or obvious layering with a smooth surface being interupted by an incompletely worn away overlying layer so that there were irregular edges. As I was looking at them my wife came out to see and immediately noticed some of these flaws. So I got to wondering and thinking about the polished rocks I've seen being sold at various places, and it seems to me that getting a perfectly smooth, polished stone is actually quite rare, most do have imperfections or surface flaws. Well, I haven't received my order of grit yet so I'm out of coarse grit so I put some up to second stage anyway. But I'm wondering, how much of a perfectionist do I want to be with this? My understanding is that, after the coarse grit, surface irregularities really don't get worked out, just smoothed over. So maybe, at least after I get the 12 pounder I want, maybe I might step up my quality control and really try to get a batch through coarse grit that is compltely free of surface irregularities. And since I like running some big pieces it might take 3 or 4 or more coarse grit runs to get them this way. And I would lose a lot of weight/volume. But I guess it gets at what I want when I finish a batch. What would be nice is a collection of perfectly smooth rocks with a mirror finish and no surface flaws. It's amazing how well atuned the human eye is to detecting any minute irregularities on an otherwise perfect surface. And since, if I ever do wish to sell some of these, there is no way I can ever hope to compete volume wise with overseas labor, maybe I can try to produce large, exceptional quality stones instead. Anyway, for now I'll finish what I've started and be happy with the results , but sorting through the rocks before I put them up in the second stage just got me to thinking...which is something I always have problems with So, how many out there really try for "perfect" rocks with the tumbling? WilliamC
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Post by Andrew on Aug 31, 2003 15:11:11 GMT -5
Hi William - well I personally think that "perfect" is in the eye of the beholder. Or is that just my excuse for churning out the poor stuff I've done recently (in particular the quartz pictured on the site - its terrible and I'll have to go back to a 400 before re-polishing)
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Post by docone31 on Aug 31, 2003 17:54:34 GMT -5
Perfection is something we strive for. Surface inclusions are a part of lapidary. A lot of times, especially with emeralds, they are treated. I like Opticon, and CA. I have never done the Canadian Balsam for anything but small cracks. It never hurts to be so retentive people walk away shaking their heads, as 20yrs from now, when you look at a piece you will not wonder why you did not go just that little extra. Now we get into diamond saws, diamond wheels, corundum sanding belts, leather buffs, Cerium Oxide. Tumbling is just the beginning. Have you tried sandblasting grit? It comes in 80lb bags. I like it when I am not tumbling gems.
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WilliamC
spending too much on rocks
Member since August 2003
Posts: 416
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Post by WilliamC on Aug 31, 2003 20:42:54 GMT -5
Greetings All, Thanks, Docone, for the tip on sandblasting grit, I'll check into that. I do see myself eventually getting into more serious lapidary, like sphere cutting. I've looked at the Coveington Engineering machines, a small two-header is only ~$450, and of course I'd need a 8 inch trim saw. But for now I'll concentrate on tumbling. If I am ever going to be doing large volume, multiple coarse stage runs with larger rocks I should try using something less expensive than just silicon carbide, so I'll buy some sand and pea gravel for extra fill and try that. My main bottleneck now is just having the one tumbler, but I'll make myself wait three more weeks before I let myself get the QT-12. Then it will be time to save up for the big purchase from Indiarockhounder.com If I go through with that the next purchase will be a commercial size machine. One thing at a time though I did get the blue aventurine delivered on Friday, it is quite nice looking. I spent a couple of hours today breaking some up and getting the rest of my rough sorted into some old 6-quart plastic containers . Right now I have ten 6 lb loads sorted and ready to go, about 20 lbs of the blue aventurine yet unbroken, and I still haven't gotten back to the obsidian yet. So many rocks. Happy Labor Day All WilliamC
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Post by docone31 on Aug 31, 2003 21:01:41 GMT -5
Man, you do like the aventurine. Cool. Have you considered schedule 40 pipe for replacement bbls while you wait? I have done them for my two bbl Loretone tumbler. I make one with 8" PVC schedule 40, and I have not really seen any heavy wear. It is also cheap enough I can make one bbl for each grit, especially the finish polish. A good buffer for me is borax. I put equal amounts of polish, and borax, and then some more just for the feeling. Another good buffer, for me, is just plain sand. The organics grind themselves into liquid, and the sand seems to last a long time. I also keep my 8" saw for the bigger pieces, and I haven't used my 8" in a long time. My 6" does it all. A regular grinder does a good job in preforming. Just have a coffee cup full of water to keep the heat down. It takes the points off mashed stone, and I use it for making flats, and some shapes. The tumble does the rest. When I tumble for gem clarity, I usually only do the first, second, and third steps. At this point I go through the stones, and pick out those I facet. Out of curiosity, what are you going to do with all the aventurine? It sounds like you have cornered the market on it. Good luck
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WilliamC
spending too much on rocks
Member since August 2003
Posts: 416
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Post by WilliamC on Sept 2, 2003 10:33:53 GMT -5
Greetings All,
Thanks for all the good tips Doc, I'll have to start thinking about less expensive tumblers/barrels as I get more into this. Although I haven't gotten to the polish stage yet, I know that is crucial for the finished product. What is your opinion on walnut shells? I was given a bag by the store when I bought the tumber to us as a filler for the polish stage, and I see on the web where I can get 50 lb bags for $30 or so.
As for what I will do with the rocks once they are polished, well, that's a good question that I don't have an answer for. My only goal for now is just to build up enough rocks so I can maybe trade them for more rough, and have them avaliable for Chris as he gets older. As he gets to his preteen years I'm sure he'll want extra money. So, if he wants more from me I can have him work for it by producing polished rocks. Then, perhaps, he can learn about capitalism and business early if he has something of value to sell, either through ebay or at flea markets and local summer fairs. Me, I'm just enjoying working with the rocks and being able to make something tangible, that I can hold in my hand and show people. I've never been much of a craftsman, but I find working with the rocks is more enjoyable than just buying gems or minerals for the sake of collecting.
WilliamC
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Post by docone31 on Sept 2, 2003 10:54:48 GMT -5
Addictive, huh. To be honest, a career in the jewelery trades could be the ultimate answer for the little guy. It starts with someone who cares, hands on a product form start to finish, and the desire and ability to learn more. If only I could get my son to do lapidary instead of fanatically losing money he doesn't have on the stock market. Walnut shell, I have never used except in tumbling brass rifle shells. I like to use borax soap in several of my tumbling phases. Inexpensive, cleans up easily, and doesn't seem to negatively affect the polish.
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WilliamC
spending too much on rocks
Member since August 2003
Posts: 416
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Post by WilliamC on Sept 3, 2003 7:02:36 GMT -5
Greetings All, Just purchased a "like new" Lortone QT12 from ebay at $60 less than new, now I don't have two wait two more weeks to get one ;D. There is an older Lortone QT-NR that I am going to bid on too. These should definitely help me increase my throughput, and let me spend more time actually working with the rocks instead of waiting...and waiting...and waiting... WilliamC
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