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Post by 1dave on Jan 10, 2014 14:55:45 GMT -5
I just bought a Hoke Torch set up for natural gas. I/m wondering if an oxygen pump for an aquarium will supply enough air. I don't want to drag my huge air compressor around.
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Tom
fully equipped rock polisher
My dad Tom suddenly passed away yesterday, Just wanted his "rock" family to know.
Member since January 2013
Posts: 1,557
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Post by Tom on Jan 10, 2014 15:59:03 GMT -5
Dave I think you are going to need actual O2 and not just a supply of air. Air is only what? 22% O2 and tons of nitrogen and other gases. Let us know how she goes.
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Post by radio on Jan 10, 2014 17:11:09 GMT -5
Natural gas in the home is too low in pressure to work properly for a torch and flashback is also a big risk. Arrestors will not function properly at such low pressures and this can be a real danger! One might use it a lifetime with no bad results, but the risk is real. one would need a pressure booster for NG to fuel a torch properly
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Post by 1dave on Jan 10, 2014 17:48:37 GMT -5
It looks like I need more research and testing. My Bunsen burner is working well.
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Tom
fully equipped rock polisher
My dad Tom suddenly passed away yesterday, Just wanted his "rock" family to know.
Member since January 2013
Posts: 1,557
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Post by Tom on Jan 10, 2014 18:23:03 GMT -5
Yes sir, Radio is correct the pressure (4 oz here) entering the house would not be safe to use at all!!!!!!! I never thought of that but I am glad Radio did. I checked out that eBay ad Dave and they had propane oxygen torches and one other. See if you can cancel this one and get the other type. The problem with using the small O2 bottles is cost but it will work.
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Post by radio on Jan 10, 2014 19:20:11 GMT -5
Yes sir, Radio is correct the pressure (4 oz here) entering the house would not be safe to use at all!!!!!!! I never thought of that but I am glad Radio did. I checked out that eBay ad Dave and they had propane oxygen torches and one other. See if you can cancel this one and get the other type. The problem with using the small O2 bottles is cost but it will work. Thanks Tom. I hated to rain on Dave's parade, but even if the NG torch were to work, spark arrestors generally will not function below 2 PSI and we wouldn't want Daves house to shift on it's foundation due to flashback in the NG pipes I use the disposable propane bottles for my torch and have a 20cu ft oxy bottle which costs me about $15 to exchange about every 2 to 3 months, but I have a shop and do a lot more soldering than your average hobbyist. a disposable propane bottle lasts me about 6 months, or about 3-4 bottles of Ox been looking at 40 and 60 cu ft bottles, but they are pricey!
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Tom
fully equipped rock polisher
My dad Tom suddenly passed away yesterday, Just wanted his "rock" family to know.
Member since January 2013
Posts: 1,557
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Post by Tom on Jan 10, 2014 21:49:00 GMT -5
The propane is pretty cheap its the little propane sized bottles of O2 that cost about 10 bucks and don't last long at all. Best to get a tank like you do and Dave would be very happy I think
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steelandstone
has rocks in the head
Member since September 2008
Posts: 500
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Post by steelandstone on Jan 11, 2014 0:20:50 GMT -5
Tela I thing that alot of your issues are from using the micro torch. I have seen some pretty cool things done with them but I think when you are in a situation where you are sinking he heat away faster than the torch will provide (like with your solder station) you would do better with a bigger (hotter) torch. I use Smiths Acetylene air torch and have 5 tips, I normally use only the 2/0 and the 1/0 tip. Smiths little torch acet/ox is hotter but you need more tanks, more regulators, more hoses. I can pump out the heat with my system enough to destroy things:) (from experience) Our club has the acet/ox unit but we are going to get an acet/air torch. a club member that has been doing this for 35 plus years has both torches at home, he NEVER uses the acet/ox unit. It would be really nice if you could try out a couple different options before buying a torch (and I know you will you said so:)) NOTE: I am not saying the acet/air unit is better than the acet/ox unit, just saying I prefer it and alot of others do to, its going to be a matter of personal preference. I am almost positive if people really really get into this they will graduate from the micro torches. Tom's humble opinion! Have a super day I have to second this. I too tried the mini torch route when I first started smithing seven years ago and had the same problems. After a week of fighting the mini torch issues I bought a Propane/Air set up with four different size tips. Now I have three different setups, The Smith Mini Acet/Ox, Smith Acet/Air and a Propane/Air. I never use the mini I almost always use the Propane/Air but my wife on the other hand uses the Acet/Air. Good luck in which ever you choose and your piece is coming along great.
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Post by nowyo on Jan 11, 2014 0:33:42 GMT -5
This is a great thread, thanks Rockjunquie for starting it and showing us your process warts and all. That's how we all learn. Connrock, Dave1, and everyone else who has shared tips and info thanks a bunch! I've soldered miles of copper for air lines and water lines but this is a whole new ballgame. Good stuff.
Russ
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 11, 2014 10:37:15 GMT -5
I know that I will want to step up my torch. Right now, it's not in the budget what with all the other purchases that I've been making.... I think the micro will keep me going for a little while. I don't want to make a huge investment until I am sure this is something that I want to stick with. I will likely go with a propane/oxy torch. I would love to get an oxygen concentrator. I remember too well how much oxy was when glass blowing. I leased a big tank and it was a pita to refill. I have lots of small tips still. I need to find out if I can use them or get an adapter. I could, at least, save some money there. Maybe, I could even use the torch I have. I have done some amazingly small work with it. Anyway, I need to do some research on it. I have the stand and everything else. It would be nice if I could use it. I have a ton of graphite, too. Well, I have a whole glass shop- that's what I have.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,165
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Post by jamesp on Jan 11, 2014 10:43:22 GMT -5
Being a welder I learned early not to use hobby size tanks. Too expensive. So i got the big industrial ones. It surprises me how much gas i use even on jewelry.
I am constantly annealing(to soften copper, brass, etc.) as i hammer (forge). The beauty of the oxy/acetylene is it gets the job done quickly w/plenty of reserve heat.
I have talked to silversmiths that like oxy/acet for the same reason. It is a matter of choice. But having at least acetylene in your arsenal seems like a good idea.
I strongly agree w/Tom about his thoughts on a torch.
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Post by roy on Jan 11, 2014 12:06:04 GMT -5
Dave,,, I try to tell it like I see it and in todays society where "everyone gets a trophy" I have to bight my (big) tongue! LOL It's sometimes difficult to convey what we want to say using a key board and 1 word in the wrong place can get a fella in a LOT of trouble. I tried to help someone years ago with a rock tumbling problem and got a VERY nasty PM.I was very upset and quit this group for a while but came back again later.Some people just don't take constructive criticism well and after thinking about it have decided that it's their loss as I have NEVER tried to hurt anyone but rater try my VERY best to help. I've made a L O T of mistakes and have had a L O T of people who helped me to get to where I know the little that I do know. I spend a lot of time on this site,not only because I learn something every day,but because of the people who are here and are willing to share their knowledge with others who need their help. They ARE the National Treasures,,,NOT me! well said! glad you stuck around
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Post by roy on Jan 11, 2014 12:11:58 GMT -5
Natural gas in the home is too low in pressure to work properly for a torch and flashback is also a big risk. Arrestors will not function properly at such low pressures and this can be a real danger! One might use it a lifetime with no bad results, but the risk is real. one would need a pressure booster for NG to fuel a torch properly as a radiator man of 30 year i have to say not true on this one have used natural gas/compressed air torches all the way national with number 6 tip ! i can see i should take some pictures at work and post them here!
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steelandstone
has rocks in the head
Member since September 2008
Posts: 500
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Post by steelandstone on Jan 11, 2014 12:41:41 GMT -5
I know that I will want to step up my torch. Right now, it's not in the budget what with all the other purchases that I've been making.... I think the micro will keep me going for a little while. I don't want to make a huge investment until I am sure this is something that I want to stick with. I will likely go with a propane/oxy torch. I would love to get an oxygen concentrator. I remember too well how much oxy was when glass blowing. I leased a big tank and it was a pita to refill. I have lots of small tips still. I need to find out if I can use them or get an adapter. I could, at least, save some money there. Maybe, I could even use the torch I have. I have done some amazingly small work with it. Anyway, I need to do some research on it. I have the stand and everything else. It would be nice if I could use it. I have a ton of graphite, too. Well, I have a whole glass shop- that's what I have. I feel your pain with the funds. I still run into that problem. (Actually I am running into that as we speak). I did do a little searching and found these two torch setups which are very similar to the ones we use and they are very reasonable priced plus they come with four quick change tips. The Fuel/Atmospheric Air torches have served me well and I do anything from small sterling tube settings to large copper cuffs. I even use the propane one for melting silver in a crucible and doing straw/bean casting, so you know the get plenty hot enough. I wanted to get into glass last year but the wife said no more mediums!!!! Hot Max AFA-1 Air/Acetylene Torch Kit with Quick Connect TipsHot Max AFP-1 Air/Propane Torch Kit with Quick Connect Tips
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 11, 2014 13:30:38 GMT -5
I know that I will want to step up my torch. Right now, it's not in the budget what with all the other purchases that I've been making.... I think the micro will keep me going for a little while. I don't want to make a huge investment until I am sure this is something that I want to stick with. I will likely go with a propane/oxy torch. I would love to get an oxygen concentrator. I remember too well how much oxy was when glass blowing. I leased a big tank and it was a pita to refill. I have lots of small tips still. I need to find out if I can use them or get an adapter. I could, at least, save some money there. Maybe, I could even use the torch I have. I have done some amazingly small work with it. Anyway, I need to do some research on it. I have the stand and everything else. It would be nice if I could use it. I have a ton of graphite, too. Well, I have a whole glass shop- that's what I have. I feel your pain with the funds. I still run into that problem. (Actually I am running into that as we speak). I did do a little searching and found these two torch setups which are very similar to the ones we use and they are very reasonable priced plus they come with four quick change tips. The Fuel/Atmospheric Air torches have served me well and I do anything from small sterling tube settings to large copper cuffs. I even use the propane one for melting silver in a crucible and doing straw/bean casting, so you know the get plenty hot enough. I wanted to get into glass last year but the wife said no more mediums!!!! Hot Max AFA-1 Air/Acetylene Torch Kit with Quick Connect TipsHot Max AFP-1 Air/Propane Torch Kit with Quick Connect TipsThanks. Another option. Options are good. Do you use either particular torch? I hear ya about mediums! My glass stuff is sitting in totes... just flippin' sitting there I don't know what to do with it. I tried to sell it once, as a whole, but people wanted it broken up. I didn't want to do that, so it sits. I have EVERYTHING needed, including a kiln and lots of glass. I was actually quite good at it, but a back injury or rather disease prevents me from doing it anymore.
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steelandstone
has rocks in the head
Member since September 2008
Posts: 500
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Post by steelandstone on Jan 11, 2014 14:14:14 GMT -5
When I first started I used the propane one by them and never had a problem. Then we got a smith Acet/Air torch for my wife and she really loved it so I decided I would get another smith setup so we only needed one tank seeing room was an issue back then. It did not take me long to miss my propane setup so I bought another one and to this day I still use the propane one for 90% of all my soldering and she still uses the Smith Acet one. Currently my propane setup is one by lenox here is one just like it on ebay Lenox TorchIt only comes with the one self igniter tip so I had to buy the others separate. I know a lot of it comes down to particular preference but I like the fact that with the propane one it is very portable and super efficient to use not to mention you can get fuel for it anywhere. For the acetylene setup I have a thourghbreed bottle. They are a little more expensive to get filled (Actually exchanged) but they are more convenient. Here; Tractor supply and northern tool both currently do the bottle exchange.
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 11, 2014 14:18:56 GMT -5
When I first started I used the propane one by them and never had a problem. Then we got a smith Acet/Air torch for my wife and she really loved it so I decided I would get another smith setup so we only needed one tank seeing room was an issue back then. It did not take me long to miss my propane setup so I bought another one and to this day I still use the propane one for 90% of all my soldering and she still uses the Smith Acet one. Currently my propane setup is one by lenox here is one just like it on ebay Lenox TorchIt only comes with the one self igniter tip so I had to buy the others separate. I know a lot of it comes down to particular preference but I like the fact that with the propane one it is very portable and super efficient to use not to mention you can get fuel for it anywhere. For the acetylene setup I have a thourghbreed bottle. They are a little more expensive to get filled (Actually exchanged) but they are more convenient. Here; Tractor supply and northern tool both currently do the bottle exchange. So these torches just use room air, correct? I'd love to not have to use an oxy bottle. Thanks. I'll keep this in mind, too.
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steelandstone
has rocks in the head
Member since September 2008
Posts: 500
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Post by steelandstone on Jan 11, 2014 15:21:14 GMT -5
When I first started I used the propane one by them and never had a problem. Then we got a smith Acet/Air torch for my wife and she really loved it so I decided I would get another smith setup so we only needed one tank seeing room was an issue back then. It did not take me long to miss my propane setup so I bought another one and to this day I still use the propane one for 90% of all my soldering and she still uses the Smith Acet one. Currently my propane setup is one by lenox here is one just like it on ebay Lenox TorchIt only comes with the one self igniter tip so I had to buy the others separate. I know a lot of it comes down to particular preference but I like the fact that with the propane one it is very portable and super efficient to use not to mention you can get fuel for it anywhere. For the acetylene setup I have a thourghbreed bottle. They are a little more expensive to get filled (Actually exchanged) but they are more convenient. Here; Tractor supply and northern tool both currently do the bottle exchange. So these torches just use room air, correct? I'd love to not have to use an oxy bottle. Thanks. I'll keep this in mind, too. Yes, no need for bottled oxy. I have been smithing for seven years now and have only used my smith little torch (It uses bottled oxy.) twice. If I did more work with gold I would need it more as you can spot heat gold and solder it effectively. Take a look at my website Steel and Stone Desgins Not that there is much on there right now because I am a slacker but everything on there has been fabricated from start to finish with either the Acet/Air or Propane/Air setups. No torch setup that uses bottled oxy was used on any of them.
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Tom
fully equipped rock polisher
My dad Tom suddenly passed away yesterday, Just wanted his "rock" family to know.
Member since January 2013
Posts: 1,557
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Post by Tom on Jan 11, 2014 17:31:33 GMT -5
Dave,,, I try to tell it like I see it and in todays society where "everyone gets a trophy" I have to bight my (big) tongue! LOL It's sometimes difficult to convey what we want to say using a key board and 1 word in the wrong place can get a fella in a LOT of trouble. I tried to help someone years ago with a rock tumbling problem and got a VERY nasty PM.I was very upset and quit this group for a while but came back again later.Some people just don't take constructive criticism well and after thinking about it have decided that it's their loss as I have NEVER tried to hurt anyone but rater try my VERY best to help. I've made a L O T of mistakes and have had a L O T of people who helped me to get to where I know the little that I do know. I spend a lot of time on this site,not only because I learn something every day,but because of the people who are here and are willing to share their knowledge with others who need their help. They ARE the National Treasures,,,NOT me! You are so right Conrock. I esp like the part "everyone gets a trophy". While I don't think this hurts at a very young age, at some point we have to win and lose. (My opinion only) You are also very correct with what you say about ONE misunderstood word and the entire email is taken the wrong way. Any you can't explain to the person what you really meant right away because its mail. Can you imagine the days of snail mail, at but at that time not "everyone got a trophy". I like to be told the truth and it won't hurt my feelings, I try to be honest in my posts without being nasty. If I see something that could be improved (IMHO) or another way of doing things I like to say so. I think most people appreciate this. If you never told me to make my prongs shorter I would still have long prongs on that pendant, you taught me something, that's part of what these groups are for. Anyway thanks for coming back to the group.
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 11, 2014 18:05:46 GMT -5
Tom, I find honesty refreshing. I always appreciate constructive criticism.
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