mikeyrocks
starting to shine!
Member since November 2014
Posts: 26
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Post by mikeyrocks on Nov 6, 2014 13:40:41 GMT -5
I have recently acquired a machine capable of rotating two 55 gal. drums. I have new clean metal barrels with lids and clamp rings. I also intend to try using the plastic screw top lid style barrels as well. Does anyone have experience with these sizes of barrels or know of older threads about them. I tried searching for info from older threads but could not find anything.
I am looking for suggestions regarding the adding of deflectors or other possibilities to improve tumble action inside a round barrel to shorten tumble times. Any suggestions on the amount of grit to add would also be of great assistance. All suggestions are welcome and appreciated.
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Post by deb193redux on Nov 6, 2014 13:52:20 GMT -5
there are some formulas in older books about diameter and RPM. I think some striping/speed-bumps on the inside of the barrels to help lit material so it does not slide down wall - this would be good. Should not have to be very big.
do not be tempted by large barrel to neglect that most of the load needs to be small pieces that allows plenty of good contact with surrounding rocks.
I think it will take lots of grit, and that rotation is only one issue. You will also need to think through handling a heavy loaded barrel and washing it out and recharging it. You won't escape needing a number of recharges and stages.
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jerrys
spending too much on rocks
Member since February 2014
Posts: 263
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Post by jerrys on Nov 6, 2014 13:53:17 GMT -5
How many pounds of rock do you plan to run in each barrel? Do you have a plan to lift or move the loaded barrels?
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Post by Jugglerguy on Nov 6, 2014 15:46:45 GMT -5
Are you going to order 60/90 grit by the truckload? I can't imagine the cost of running such a beast.
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Post by orrum on Nov 6, 2014 20:40:28 GMT -5
Hello Mike! I use 6 inch and 8 inch PVC barrels like JamesP with no bumps and they rough tumble great! This is Bill the oneleggedcowboy!
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quartz
Cave Dweller
breakin' rocks in the hot sun
Member since February 2010
Posts: 3,352
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Post by quartz on Nov 6, 2014 23:43:44 GMT -5
Based on running my 5-gallon barrels, you are going to have a running weight of ~550 lbs. and a grit requirement of 50 lbs. per run, each barrel. Do you have a method of lifting and tipping the barrels? A place to dump them? A place to run the machine so the noise won't be intrusive, man that thing will be loud. A baseline on running speed the way I arrive at them would be 6-8 R.P.M., will your running frame give you that? As far as having kickers in the barrels, I think they contribute to too much breakage, and don't speed the tumbling process, proper speed is best for a round barrel. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, just bringing up experience based thoughts that come to mind. To see that run would be absolutely impressive. Good luck, and most of all, have fun. Larry
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mikeyrocks
starting to shine!
Member since November 2014
Posts: 26
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Post by mikeyrocks on Nov 7, 2014 0:54:12 GMT -5
jerrys.....a 55 gal drum will hold about 600 to 700 lb of rock; 700 when there are fewer voids. I expect a load to be 500 to 550 lbs. The plan is to move loaded barrels as little as possible and short distances. Also why the plactic screw tops might be a good choice; I believe there are some are in the 35 gal range and easier to handle. I'll probably thinks about a mobile crane hoist of some sort to ease handling. I have a lift post for my (Reciprolap) 3oo lb 3 foot cast iron flat lap plate; maybe I'll scavange that lift post to build the mobile unit.
deb193redux.....thank you for the thoughts. Small speedbumps will improve speed to finish without damage; I will experiment with size and styles. And yes a healthy balance of rock sizes is required for efficient action and maximum surface contact. I have a backlog of 3 or 4 tons or small chips and pieces to tumble and figure to put a couple of larger pieces 10 or 15 lb in per load. This machine utilizes a speed reducing gearbox which eases the stress on pulley choices and belts. I also have collected a few spares of these over the years which gives me other speed choices. (Soft ice cream machines use two of them.)
I already buy 100 lb batches of coarse grit; guess I'll have to increase that. Catmandewe uses 5 lb of grit in a 75/90 lb barrel of rock; so I should need about 25 to 35 lb of grit per barrel load.
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mikeyrocks
starting to shine!
Member since November 2014
Posts: 26
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Post by mikeyrocks on Nov 7, 2014 1:41:37 GMT -5
quartz.....thanks for the input on this....and I don't consider it raining on my parade atall. When stepping things up to these degrees, the whole game changes significantly. All the more reason to reach out for additional input. Crazy not to if it's available. I was typing my last entry when you posted yours. Our load size estimates agree and grit requirement is reasonably close. I was an east coast longshoreman for 7 years so I'm familiar with rigging, etc. (Largest lift I participated in was 490 tons). See my last post for handling thoughts. I agree that speedbumps or kickers could cause breakage, fractures and prublems. One major option I am considering is just a couple of small 3 or 4 inch flats installed that would interrupt the roundness of the barrel and encourage stirring without bumps and humps. Now your 6 to 8 rpm estimate is invaluable information. I'll have to check what this machine is set up for. A correction in my earlier post is this unit has drive chain and sprockets not belts and pulleys. Thanks again for the assist. mikey
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stonemaster499
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since July 2014
Posts: 97
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Post by stonemaster499 on Nov 7, 2014 3:36:09 GMT -5
Hi. I'm running significantly larger than what you propose. 40 RPM in ROUND ball mill rotaries for agate. I use 25 RPM for quartz and softer. My machines are professionally made and have held up for > 15 years each. Using 55 gal drums will work for a short time and then likely fall apart. They are simply too thin. We break the drums you are proposing, merely rolling them on the ground filled with rock over time. You should get 240kg in there (528lb) at 75% full and even 10-20% more with smalls. So, I say a 55 gal drum is not thick enough steel for the long (short) haul. They are only really loud if you don't have a rubber liner. I recommend .5-1cm rubber sheets (the proprietary rubber sealant will bond with the sheets with no seams. No seems is very important so you don't have grit caught. 2KW motor can run 2 of your size barrels. Also, w/o the rubber you will have insane gas buildup (from stone and steel banging). Rubber liner protects the drum, and prevents the police from banging down your door, after all your community complains. Trust me. We always seem to have one with a worn-out liner, and its loud. I use HD sound protection. Tumble speeds are decreased due to the massive weight. Hence, what takes folks here 4-6 weeks, might take you only 5-7 days grit : 33 lb is my estimate for your size, but would "test the grit" after 72 hours. I would use 1/2 on the polish and make sure you recycle it. buy the grit by the ton. you can find it very cheap. as far as adding anything inside to speed up the process:don't put anything inside. The round shape barrel gives the most aggressive tumble action. Our hexagonal barrels when running the same speed as round, have about 50% of the grind action/tumble time. The advantage of the hex is on softer stones, and is more forgiving with the slurry (i.e., too much water...too little...etc) This was explained in the Victors 1967-1984 book. It was the only book i have read that explains, in detail, the differences of the sizes and shapes of the barrels. The modern book (steve hart) is more relevant with today's advancements, but caters to the 3-15# hobbyist machines. You want more action? speed your barrel to 70 RPM cowboy and hang on tight.. Good luck. ps- I don't do any physical work in my factory, and have the privilege to delegate the labor down to amazing employees. I break my back cleaning out a UV-10 myself. So others have pointed out the massive amount of labor involved. Please let me know how you plan to clean the rock between stages? 430# or so? I need some fresh ideas here for myself . Other masters please chime in on suggestions on how to clean 500# of rock, other than by hand..??
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,563
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Post by jamesp on Nov 7, 2014 4:32:15 GMT -5
Looks like this guy used sch 20 steel pipe. hopefully about 3/8" thick steel, probably thicker. Barrel probably cleaned out in place via side port. sweet Looks like it started out like this and was converted to the above photo, rolling weight on bearings and not rollers for lots of good reasons Cleanout Drive side Idler side, notice side entry aborted and welded back
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Post by mohs on Nov 7, 2014 13:32:23 GMT -5
serious bearing load
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quartz
Cave Dweller
breakin' rocks in the hot sun
Member since February 2010
Posts: 3,352
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Post by quartz on Nov 7, 2014 23:14:31 GMT -5
Stonemaster: Given the resources, and the repeating need to clean a 500# load of rock, I'd build a screened "tumbler" barrel, solid on the ends. Heavy screen on the outside for support and finer on the inside for containment of the load. This could be fairly easily pivoted or hung into a trough of soapy water and run for whatever necessary to clean the load. Be a lot like the final soap run in a "most peoples tumbler".
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Post by Rockoonz on Nov 7, 2014 23:31:38 GMT -5
jamesp the local rock club owns a tumbler like the one you showed, wish I had pics. The barrel is about 4 foot diameter and about 2 feet wide. The member who tended it had built a heavily insulated room in his rock shop to run it in. Replacing the seized bearing with a full load of rocks in it was quite the chore.
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Post by catmandewe on Nov 7, 2014 23:38:51 GMT -5
I was thinking about making a shaker table for cleaning the load, with water spraying the length of the shaker table as the rocks shake down its length. You could also make the table with different mesh sizes so it will also sort by size larger mesh on top and smaller on the bottom so the smaller stuff would fall through and go into buckets or trays according to size.
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stonemaster499
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since July 2014
Posts: 97
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Post by stonemaster499 on Nov 8, 2014 0:53:59 GMT -5
quartz and catmandewe: thanks for the brainstorming - both great, well thought out ideas. quartz: your meshed barrel is easily adaptable and suitable for all kinds of stones (ex - thickening agent can be added, if necessary, while at the same time you have a dedicated "gentle" (low) RPM clean for delicate stones. wonderful/ and easy to do! catmandewe: very interesting concept. We used to use shaker/vibratory tables for our gemstone mosaic slabs (9' x 5') for maximizing the resin penetration. However, I wouldn't know where to start with this concept; but wow, it would be an incredible if this idea could be put into action. I would be first concerned about rocks colliding (especially) with your separator concept. Thanks both of you for your experience-based creativity!
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mikeyrocks
starting to shine!
Member since November 2014
Posts: 26
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Post by mikeyrocks on Nov 9, 2014 4:47:12 GMT -5
quartz...I don't see the tumbler idea as workable/effective for the clean/sort process as Tony's idea (catmandewe). A few shortcomings for me are directing a water steam into a mesh barrel without it deflecting some of the water back at me. Inspecting and sorting in a closed container is not possible either. So this would not be my first choice. stonemaster....very interesting thought to use a shaker/vibratory for maximizing resin penetration. What type of resin may I ask? Are pressure, vacuum or heat used in the process anywhere? Tony and I will be loading this unit tomorrow for it's trip to Quartzsite with me on Monday/Tuesday. I've use commercial sorting tables at times and Tony's idea is quite workable in my thoughts. It can also accommodate size sorting as well with out great difficulty and damage rather easily. A reasonably long sloped set of rails can accommodate screen panels of various mesh allowing the correct size piece to drop to another level below which could have a number of tubs catching the sorted stones. Concerned about breakage and chips? Fill the tubs with water and it will cushion the drop. This method allows for picking out rejects and special stones while they move along the table. The first portion of the table can be the wash station. Controlling slope and the amount of vibration will determine how quickly the material moves along. I'll try to post photos of this unit as soon as I get some assistance from Tony.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,563
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Post by jamesp on Nov 9, 2014 7:32:59 GMT -5
This one sits on 4 rollers and has 4 bearings. Cranks 90 degrees to dump into attached hopper. Full surround gear drive. Must have been a concrete mixer. Not sure if it was used to tumble. A beast. Cool concept.
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stonemaster499
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since July 2014
Posts: 97
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Post by stonemaster499 on Nov 9, 2014 11:18:11 GMT -5
mikeyrocks. You think the water in the bucket will really prevent fracturing? I'm scared when i drop soft stones 2 inches onto the rest of the rock, when I'm hand cleaning b/w stages.... Quartzsite? Will you be selling the product there Dec-Jan? The shaker table was (used in the past) to vibrate our gemstone mosaic slabs that are used in the architectural and design (granite and marble) industry. Shaking and heat assist in penetration. Vacuum? Of course this will cause deeper penetration. If you are tumbling a porous stone (turquoise, to name one) you need to stabilize. A vacuum chamber is the best choice here. If you are not doing this for a hobby, you cannot soak anything. Vacuum will take minutes vs. what will takes days of soaking and do a better job/ Soaking might not penetrate fully, but usually works fine. Epoxy (stronger) or polyester resins work. one is 10x more expensive, since it is 10x stronger. You can get a simple 1 gallon system for $180, PM me. If you are really cheap, you can get away with brake lines and a hand pump and easily make a chamber - youtube it. Slabs roll through machines that treat surface grind, sand, treat, polish, wax/seal in 15 mins. 1 man would take 3 days to do this. We do this with gemstones. Different resins are for different purposes. For bonding stone, nothing beats epoxy. Correctly used, you can glue 2 pcs of stone together and the weakest part is...the stone. There is so many epoxy systems, but rather than re-invent the wheel, look into the stone industry for anything. INCLUDING TUMBLERS. What we are using here are toys like RC cars, compared to F1. In the gem and mineral industry you find merely 3 or so over-priced adhesives (opticon, 333, Starbond). In granite alone, we have 1000's. So, in the US, i would recommend STONEWELD. Great quality. liquid /flowing for bonding/penetrating. If you need to dilute it for penetration use a thinner (xylene best or acetone). For spot repairing, you get gel/knife grade. Then the colors. Stone are never "broken" now... For flexible repairs where you are backing a large slab (>12") use polyester resin with a fiberglass mesh. Paint the resin to bond the backing mesh to the back of the stone. The flex of the polyester will give more strength. resins can be used to cheat a polish, or take it to the next level. "burnishing in borox?" Ok for cleaning up the stones, but clearly is a TREATMENT I would call it an "old boys" method. All commercial tumbling factories I have visited (brazil, south africa, madagascar, china) dunk the finished tumble into a cheap paraffin wax like a McDonald's french fryer. The more sophisticated ones use high-temp paraffin to resist melting in the sun, in the customers retail/wholesale store fronts. I use a polymer(resin) at the end for gap-filling, sealing, and most importantly that gloss look that makes people say, Wow!(really WTF). I would recommend people here start with "liquid glass" available at any auto parts store. wax is $5, why is liquid glass $30? RESIN. it is a permanent polish that lasts on a car surface for years. They use this on a Ferrari to make it pop, not turtle wax. They use fancy words on the product like "nanotechnology and UV resistance". I have opened a pandora's box. This isn't cheating. This is improving. I would say using saws and wheels on your tumble, during the process is cheating (grinding and sawing after you start a batch)
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SirRoxalot
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since October 2003
Posts: 790
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Post by SirRoxalot on Nov 19, 2014 17:13:16 GMT -5
A thousand thank-you's for this information. Long have I lusted to take tumbling to your level. I always appreciate your tips!!!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 17:26:00 GMT -5
I know that with 3# loads I will have a problem with too many finished tumbles. I hope you have a market for tumbled stones.
I can't imagine what I would do with a couple of tons of tumbled stones every year!
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