stonemaster499
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since July 2014
Posts: 97
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Post by stonemaster499 on May 11, 2015 17:06:10 GMT -5
Why is everyone recommending he switch out the motor? The Model B is a great toy, but it does run about 1/3 too slow in the first place! The High Speed model B goes 30 RPM versus 20 RPM on the standard "rock model". The manufacturer is has set the speed low to reduce machine wear. This means it takes 30 percent longer to grind down your rocks ! Mine out of the box runs 22 RPM empty and runs as slow as 18 RPM full (ok, a few pounds past spec).. If I tumble a hard stone, I use a modified drive shaft to get the speed to 32 RPM - IDEAL for hard stones. I would prefer to go faster, but the machine is what it is... When tumbling a soft/ delicate stone, I use a factory default "rock" 20 RPM Model B, when going hard, I use the modified drive shaft (add 40-50% diameter to the drive rollers to increase RPM) . For those with Model B's, you can buy the $8 part, modify the rollers to increase the RPM and have a 2-speed tumbler ! It takes 2 seconds to change out the drive shaft, and makes you feel cool in the process In brazos case, I would use the existing high-speed model B. Loaded, it might only run 28 RPM. re: Vibes UV-10 versus UV-10 IND- what's the difference? please note the below assumes you have a standard UV-18 unit: I have a UV-10 IND and UV-18 standard. I called Mr. Thumler to ask what I should do with my UV-18, since it "isn't suitable for rocks." First he said there were big differences. He explained the differences: He said my UV-18 has the same motor as a UV-10 IND. The Ind versions have heavier duty bowls. This is true, but BAD advice for someone buying a dedicated polish bowl. ie the heavier duty is better for gind only. The other stages makes no difference and there will be NO wear past 120 grit The springs are much bigger. True, but there are fewer. (ie my UV-18, has smaller but more springs and can take MORE weight than my UV-10 IND). Finally, beyond the foam on the base, the screws are sealed to prevent liquids from coming down into the motor. So, after sealing the screw holes, and replacing the bowl, my UV-18 is now a UV-10 IND. **UV-18 more stable on larger platform compared to the UV-10 IND. I just needed to seal the screws, and get a uv-10 ind bowl. I have run both units side by side. same results for over 1 year. So, if looking for a vibratory tumbler and want a UV-10 IND, you can find standard UV-18's quite cheap....
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Post by johnjsgems on May 11, 2015 18:09:32 GMT -5
The Model B has the best drum available. It was the same drum sold to Highland Park for many years for their 12 Lb model. The only drum with 5 year warranty. You can buy a conversion kit to convert it to an AR2 if you ever want to run small loads. The high speed versions of Thumler's are for metal finishing and won't work for rocks. If you bought it from Cabellas or other big outfit they will likely let you return it. The advantage of the QT66 would be it is the same as QT12 with larger drum so you could do either with both the double 6's and single 12. If you stay with B model buy extra lid gaskets. It is the weak spot of an otherwise terrific tumbler.
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stonemaster499
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since July 2014
Posts: 97
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Post by stonemaster499 on May 11, 2015 18:40:46 GMT -5
The Model B has the best drum available. It was the same drum sold to Highland Park for many years for their 12 Lb model. The only drum with 5 year warranty. You can buy a conversion kit to convert it to an AR2 if you ever want to run small loads. The high speed versions of Thumler's are for metal finishing and won't work for rocks. If you bought it from Cabellas or other big outfit they will likely let you return it. The advantage of the QT66 would be it is the same as QT12 with larger drum so you could do either with both the double 6's and single 12. If you stay with B model buy extra lid gaskets. It is the weak spot of an otherwise terrific tumbler. "The high speed versions of Thumler's are for metal finishing and won't work for rocks." Is this because you are a reseller and following the what the manufacturer told you? Or are you talking on experience? The manufacturer wants the tumbler running slower to make the experience easier on the newbie with less room for error, but most importantly, wants less calls = LESS WEAR = LESS TUMBLING. If you speed it up 30%, you will increase the the grind and wear time similarly. The gasket issue is already a weakness, imaging it wearing out even faster! Great tips otherwise, but strongly disagree on the speed. At my recommended speed (model B at 32 RPM for rocks 7 and harder), the liner will wear out 33% faster. **the manufacturer also suggests 60 grit SiC for stage one. If you follow the instructions, along with the slow RPM, it WILL take you 6-8 weeks to round out chalcedonies. However using 46 GREEN (G46SiC) silicon carbide will get the job done 30-50% faster. First off, I recommend GREEN SiC for grinding and not the black lower grade material. It is a higher quality product. Next the lower grit size in the "larger" barrel will be much more efficient. This isn't say you cannot do the job with 60/90 or even better 60, its just slower.
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Post by johnjsgems on May 11, 2015 19:14:44 GMT -5
I have not been a Thumler's dealer for quite a few years now but the motors used to be twice as fast (like 1500 vs. 3000 rpm). I bought a used 9 lb. tumbler with high speed motor and it would not start with a load of rock although the motor may have been weak and old. Most tumblers run slow so rocks are gently worn smooth not beat to chips and fractures. A high speed for first step may work but subsequent steps would be pretty hard to accomplish without a lot of cushioning.
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brazos
off to a rocking start
Member since May 2015
Posts: 11
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Post by brazos on May 11, 2015 20:18:22 GMT -5
I appreciate the last bit of input. I may should have waited before sending my HS Mod. B back but the deal is done and the Q66 is on the way. Nice to know I can use the QT12 barrel on the QT66 frame. That makes me feel better about my decision. Even though I have yet to tumble a rock it is very appearant to do the job right/effeciant multiple types of machines are best given the amount and species of rocks you are trying to polish and what stage of polishing you are trying to achieve. I can see where a big tumbler, smaller tumbler, and a vibratory tumbler all have there place. I may add a QT12 barrel and a UV10 to my arsenal this summer once the polishing is underway.
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stonemaster499
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since July 2014
Posts: 97
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Post by stonemaster499 on May 12, 2015 14:18:23 GMT -5
I have not been a Thumler's dealer for quite a few years now but the motors used to be twice as fast (like 1500 vs. 3000 rpm). I bought a used 9 lb. tumbler with high speed motor and it would not start with a load of rock although the motor may have been weak and old. Most tumblers run slow so rocks are gently worn smooth not beat to chips and fractures. A high speed for first step may work but subsequent steps would be pretty hard to accomplish without a lot of cushioning. Thanks for your response John, but again, your comment "Most tumblers run slow so rocks are gently worn smooth not beat to chips and fractures", I'm struggling to digest. This is not the case, and this is not what occurs, unless you do not balance the load, and/or have no idea what you are doing. Al Thumler himself would advise you to use his high-speed model for hard stones. Not because the "rock model" won't do the job, it will do it much slower. Also, NO the quality isn't compromised by the speed. The standard model B is ideal, since drive shaft mod is easy, because you can swap out the drive shaft in a few seconds to have a high-speed tumbler and vice-versa Forgive me, as I have no doubt your intentions are in the right place. I just get frustrated when I read misinformation like this. Your comments might apply to the one-time tumbler, but not to a potential addict. FYI larger ball mills (large tumblers) require to be help to get spinning, call it a little kick start. Its simple physics. Same with the model B when you speed it up. I forgot to mention this. Give it a little push, or start the tumbler and carefully place the loaded barrel on the tumbler while running. The real damage to the motor is from starting and stopping, so it could be a wise idea to leave it on, while reloading a barrel regardless if you run it slow or fast. So we have established that you have never used a Model B high-speed for tumbling, nor modified a standard model B (normal speed) to speed up. John you do know that rocks are ideally tumbled at DIFFERENT speeds to get the best results? Soft stones require slowing down (speed), and cushioning with media, and thickening agents. Hard stones like agate need speed in grind, and can easily take it when balanced. Yes, this is more advanced tumbling, but please do not tell people things that won't work, especially if it might be beyond your own experience. I prefer to promote and improve our art. "A high speed for first step may work but subsequent steps would be pretty hard to accomplish without a lot of cushioning" This is the intention John. Stage 1 only. If you read the original post, he plans to use a vibe to finish. And, yes, the high-speed is intended only for the grind stage 1, wear the rotary works best. I can assure anyone here, I have run my model B since Aug, 2014 non-stop at 32 RPM. The motor is a little hotter, and my tumbling workshop (garage) in Phoenix gets up to 120 degrees as well, and no issues. The results are much better, the slurry more consistent. I can wear out the grit (even 17 grit) in 3 days ! Running a model B slow, as per instructions - you can open it up a few days later, and if something is a little off, might not have even started - we all about that...
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Post by captbob on May 12, 2015 14:34:31 GMT -5
stonemaster499 if I may ask, how long do your lid liners last running 17 grit at high speed? I know they're only around 5 bucks, and I keep several extras on hand, just curious. Got a picture of your " modified drive shaft"? Where do you get this 46 green silicon carbide grit? How does this 46 and the 17 wear on the barrel liner? The barrel liners are a bit more expensive (I thing 40 some bucks last one I bought) so I wouldn't want to be going through liners in a quickness.
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stonemaster499
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since July 2014
Posts: 97
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Post by stonemaster499 on May 12, 2015 17:09:10 GMT -5
stonemaster499 if I may ask, how long do your lid liners last running 17 grit at high speed? I know they're only around 5 bucks, and I keep several extras on hand, just curious. Got a picture of your " modified drive shaft"? Where do you get this 46 green silicon carbide grit? How does this 46 and the 17 wear on the barrel liner? The barrel liners are a bit more expensive (I thing 40 some bucks last one I bought) so I wouldn't want to be going through liners in a quickness. Hi Captbob. Since there are many variables, I cannot give you an exact timeline on the liner. I would estimate 33-50% more wear at 46, 50-60% more wear at 17 grit all ***at 32 RPM. So we have 3 factors to consider for wear a) coarser grit b) better quality grit with the GSiC c) speed (RPM) (ie we cannot say that the coarser grit is the sole factor if we are running 1/3 faster...) I will make a post a video on the Model B roller modification, so others can see as well for ref this evening. You are right to have concern for your liner. I have no noticeable wear on that so far. But if you get the job down say 30% faster, you should expect the wear to be 30% more worn as well. I saw your impressive post on the obsidian. wow. intense patience. For me, patience is something have none of; and time is money (whether for pleasure or business). My abrasives come directly from the manufacturer in China. I go through more abrasives than you can imagine, so require a partnership with the manufacturer directly. China OWNS the abrasives business. The fact that none of the tumbling wholesalers are even offering green is puzzling. Its not for everybody. Personally, I prefer to drive a Audi on the highway compared to a Ford. Once people try and see the results all the suppliers will offer. Kind of like the smartphone. Early adopters look like geeks, now practically everybody has one. Bob, when I tested G17SiC in my model B at 32 RPM, the grit was worn in 3 days to about 300-500 when i tested it. I added 50% of the initial charge (3 days after start) and finished the run in 6 days. Quartz (amethyst, smokey, fire quartz) was done! Agate looked like 4 weeks 60/90 at 20 RPM. One more week (6 days) and the agate was done stage 1. So, if following, AGATE completed in < 3 weeks polished. This cuts down grind time by at LEAST 50%. www.hxabrasives.com/greenSiC.htmwww.panadyne.com/greensiliconcarbide.htmlGreen SiC has been colored to indicate that it is higher purity of crystal when it is manufactured, compared to the black standard/ About 15 years ago I learned about this first hand. My lapidary employees were complaining about their teeth hurting when grinding carnelian by hand. I was puzzled, since I didnt realize that Moh's hardness scale has serious limitations stating Quartz (H.7), and Agate (H.7). I knew the crystal structure (cryptocrystaline) must play a large role, but even still huge range of Mohs "h.7". Also, this was BEFORE the diamond industry took off (ie today we use flexible diamond pads and turbo blades for lapidary work). I inquired with my grinding wheel manufacturer about my men's teeth pain, when grinding He laughed, and suggested we use GREEN SiC wheels for our carvings. Bingo. 15-25% more efficient, no teeth pain (ie the head shakes less), and the wheels cost 15-30% more. So, for hard stones, you will see approx 15-30% improved efficiency with an increase in costing 15-30%. I use more black SiC for quartz and softer. Green for chalcedony (agate, jaspers). I will also post shortly the stonemaster499 1-2 step process for the "Lazy Man". And captbob, I'm sure you know, (with info above) how to do the 1 step I will post pictures of this shortly as well.
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Post by johnjsgems on May 12, 2015 17:25:01 GMT -5
So, I don't know much about rocks or tumbling but do buy and sell grit. According to my supplier the grit is manufactured in a huge pile covered with something like foil and subjected to heat. The grit in center of pile will be green and black towards the outside. The green will be harder than the black so it stands to reason the green wheels would be harder than black wheels.
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Paul
starting to shine!
Member since April 2015
Posts: 38
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Post by Paul on May 12, 2015 23:58:18 GMT -5
Dang... I saw the title "New guy with tumbler question" and expected an entirely different thread. You guys are intense!
Welcome to the forum Brazos. I'm new too. My daughter (5th grade) and I love rock hounding beaches and rivers so we've got a ton of that type of rock. We're barely 2 weeks in and just this past weekend we had enough for our first batch in 220 grit. I opted to start smaller (Lortone 33b kit) and lighter (5 lbs of coarse instead of 77 lbs). Regardless of scale it's all fun when you start seeing the rocks taking shape. Good luck, and post pictures!
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