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Post by mohs on Jul 7, 2015 10:04:54 GMT -5
I just don't understand why cooler minds didn't prevail and allow the South to secede?
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grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Jul 7, 2015 10:25:00 GMT -5
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Post by captbob on Jul 7, 2015 10:29:41 GMT -5
"A house divided against itself cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure, permanently, half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved — I do not expect the house to fall — but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other. Either the opponents of slavery will arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction; or its advocates will push it forward, till it shall become lawful in all the States, old as well as new — North as well as South. - Abraham Lincoln
Might still happen though. Instead of North and South, we could have Working and Freeloaders. Working could then also own the Freeloader states once they all starve to death.
Works for me!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 7, 2015 11:53:14 GMT -5
Yeah James, that is the image that really stuck when I was researching my gg grandpa. Hagerstown road, or The Sunken Road, as it was known locally prior to the Battle of Antietam. Perhaps one of the most important scenes of carnage that history must remember for what it was, not what they want to make of it now. Antietum was the first major battle in the Civil War to take place on Union soil. It is the bloodiest single-day battle in American history, with a combined tally of dead, wounded, and missing at 22,717. Out gunned and way out numbered, we gave them Hell. Always gloated at the tenacity of our forefathers. Win or lose. That's what I think of when I look at a Confederate Flag. An image that represents courage that will never die. Granted slavery was wrong, but it was a way of life at the time. Grand Dad always said it was always a victory to get in a fight with some one bigger and badder than you are. Win or lose.
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grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Jul 7, 2015 15:30:49 GMT -5
I just don't understand why cooler minds didn't prevail and allow the South to secede? Continental Continuity Feel Free to join Mexico if you would like! Instead, Mexico is joing us! I guess that would be 'Continental Incontinence'.
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Post by captbob on Jul 7, 2015 15:39:35 GMT -5
I just don't understand why cooler minds didn't prevail and allow the South to secede? Continental Continuity Feel Free to join Mexico if you would like! Hell, probably be easier to turn Mexico into something worthwhile than some of the northeastern and far western states.
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Post by 1dave on Jul 7, 2015 16:15:08 GMT -5
I just don't understand why cooler minds didn't prevail and allow the South to secede? Continental Continuity USA is just an euphemism for land grab. Feel Free to join Mexico if you would like! As are ALL countries. Always has been, always will be! Anyone know the story of the Bloody Hand of Ireland?
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Post by mohs on Jul 7, 2015 17:13:42 GMT -5
Thanks Bill! I believe I understand Lincoln position. His intent is very faithful to his interpretation of the Constitution. Although he could have taken another perspective towards that interpretation. The other editorial is very good! The writer hits some very points. Especially when he brought up the Founders & the Federalist movement. There Lincoln could have found some wiggle room in his interpretation and could have allowed the Union to dissolve. He chose not to. And yet his way may have been the only way. For if the South had retained slavery in their own sovereignty it was only going to be matter of time before those slave would have revolted en mass Then the North (or some other country) would have been involved in supplying arms. America would then have a foreign force on there soil with a with lots pissed off slaves. Ah hell this is Gordian Knot. Pull one strand of the historical thread and the knot only tightens. Call in Alexander & Fight On mostly
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grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Jul 7, 2015 17:29:15 GMT -5
Ed, another point to ponder is the timing of the War of The Rebellion. The industrial age was upon us, and slave labor was already losing its profitability. Then (as now) a machine is much more cost effective and productive than maintaining a human worker. Slavery would have fallen out of favor within another ten years regardless.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 7, 2015 18:00:56 GMT -5
I just don't understand why cooler minds didn't prevail and allow the South to secede? Continental Continuity USA is just an euphemism for land grab. Feel Free to join Mexico if you would like! Mexico may fight ferociously to not join the states.
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Post by 1dave on Jul 7, 2015 22:12:00 GMT -5
Continental Continuity Feel Free to join Mexico if you would like! Instead, Mexico is joing us! I guess that would be 'Continental Incontinence'. Continental Continuity has helped us distant ourselves from petty tyrants that are always trying to invade and take over their neighbors. The "Old World" was doomed from the beginning. Too many fingers and close by pies. Interesting that most of those kings and queens were related. Most of those wars were just family squabbles.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 8, 2015 6:30:30 GMT -5
Interesting, visit east coast of Costa Rica's Limon provence and you will receive a warm english speaking welcome form Jamaican immigrants brought in as basically slaves back when. The Jamaicans spoke English early on, and not many other Costa Ricans cared to learn English. Most were Hispanic decent. Ha, when Costa Rica became a major tourist attraction the Jamaicans attained managerial status at bars, hotels, travel agencies, etc. If you go there find a Jamaican and he/she will fix up your itinerary. Many native Costa Ricans still a bit disinterested in using English. A healthy gene pool those Afro-Costa Ricans, guessing they were selected for their size and stature early on. Don't think I have ever seen more ladies over 6 feet tall as was in Costa Rica. Interesting turn around that their knowledge of English benefited them so well. ""Towards the second half of the 19th century, coffee became the main export of Costa Rica. The crops were transported from the Pacific Coast, by an inaccessible jungle terrain of the Atlantic Coast. To be taken to Europe, they had to turn back to South America, which increased the cost and removed competitiveness . To remedy this situation, in 1871 a railway and a port on the Atlantic Coast were constructed. Because of the scarcity of local labor, workers were imported from Italy, China, and the Caribbean and Central America. This coincided with an employment crisis in Jamaica that caused an exodus to neighboring countries.[3] So on December 20, 1872 the Lizzie, the first boat from Jamaica, arrived at the port of Limón with 123 workers to work on the railroad. From this moment, the number of Jamaican workers in Limon increased rapidly and the next year already saw over 1,000 Jamaican workers in the port, mostly of Ashanti origin.[1] Many Jamaicans intended to return home, but most remained in the province of Limón on the Caribbean Coast. In 1890 the railways suffered a financial crisis, forcing many workers to sustain themselves by working in agriculture. This in turn saw the laborers establishing relationships and cultural exchanges with native populations of these areas.[1] Later, the Jamaican workers began working for the banana industry, whose production grew to its peak in 1907. Usually these workers lived on the plantations and had little knowledge of Costa Rica beyond their immediate environment. The contact was minimal because the Costa Rican banana plantations were in foreign hands. They did not speak Spanish and retained Jamaican customs. They had their own schools with teachers brought from Jamaica. Until 1949 Costa Rica had segregation laws similar to the South African Apartheid, where Blacks lived exclusively in the Caribbean Province of Puerto Limón. By 2011 Afro-Costa Ricans were spread in all 7 Costa Rican provinces: 32% of them in San José, 16% in Alajuela, 15% in Limón, 10% in Heredia and 8% in Cartago and Guanacaste. Today, Afro-Costa Ricans are part of different disciplines and fields in Costa Rica. [3]"" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Costa_RicanThis event in Costa Rica was an eye opener. Seemed as there was no resentment about the past. The Jamaicans pulled themselves up and moved on. Anger and bitterness about the past is apparently nonexistent. Not so in the US of A. Food for thought.
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Post by orrum on Jul 8, 2015 6:56:16 GMT -5
The mechanical age versus slavery? The mechanical age trumping slavery??? Yall need to visit good old tobacco farming in the south 15 years ago and even now after the big buyout. It's a labor intensive crop. Next go visit the citrus or produce or other such areas. That would be where folks and their children get paid a dollar a gallon to pick blueberries. Yall ever pick blueberries, they don't all get ripe at the same time and each time you pick a bush the next time there are fewer berries and they are harder to get to so the daily yield of a picked goes down! Better yet those little tiny pickles you love from Mt. Olive are paid by the pound to a picker. Do you know how many of those tiny cukes are in a pound? The cucumbers have spines on the vines and the cuke that eat your hands and arms and ankles up! Yep those machines sure did away with slave labor......
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Post by orrum on Jul 8, 2015 7:21:02 GMT -5
That being said I am southern born and bred.... I grew up in Saltville Va. salt capital of the Confeferacy. We are proud of our roots and are still a believer in states rights and most importantly personal rights! We Appalachian hillbillies won yalls independence from England an ask no thanks just leave us alone. No revenuers wanted sir!!!
George Washington was starving and freezing to death in Valley Forge when England sent a army to subdue the Over Mountain Men, we wrote and published our Declaration of Independence a year b4 the rest of the nation and England was gonna fix us once and for all! We cornered them on a hill top and picked them off with our small caliber squirrel rifles and one Over Mountain man took ole Betsy his rifle and shot the commander grave yard dead! Yes the rifle was named after his wife Betsy. We captured them and ended that threat. Then we talked over the fact that come spring we needed to be planting and tending a crop so we would not starve! We did not need to be pulled off our chores and crops to deal with another English invasion. So we sent out the word and the hillbillies. mostly Scotch descended down from our mountains, from Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia and North Carolina we started walking toward the east and we gathered the kin and clans as we went. Then we put a whooping on that English army and left our founding father George Washington to catch up the loose ends because we had to get home to the family and start plowing.
Sorry folks but the Over Mountain Men did the job and we're the "real" thing! Don't for one minute doubt that some of " your" personal rights weren't guaranteed by the states rights that that Confederate flag saw battle over. Yes the nation changed the way it viewed states rights and we paid and are still paying the price! We had to live thru years of occupation by carpet baggers and had no rights to public office and such and now you want to take away our symbol of the honor of the Confederate Veterans.... Plus you want to make us out as a bunch of cruel sadistic slave owners! As my hero Forest Gump would say ...... That's all I got to say about that!!!!!
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jul 8, 2015 10:32:27 GMT -5
I think that playing with my pet rocks is more fun than arguing about divisive politics. Don't let us stop you from your fun. Carry on now, nothing to see here. Don't cry wolf when reality slaps you in the forehead. I would rather be up to date and informed about the bs around me/us than be blind about it.
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Post by rockpickerforever on Jul 8, 2015 10:45:47 GMT -5
I think that playing with my pet rocks is more fun than arguing about divisive politics. Don't let us stop you from your fun. Carry on now, nothing to see here. Don't cry wolf when reality slaps you in the forehead. I would rather be up to date and informed about the bs around me/us than be blind about it. Billy, seems some folk still think ignorance is bliss...
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chassroc
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Post by chassroc on Jul 8, 2015 13:01:23 GMT -5
Ed, another point to ponder is the timing of the War of The Rebellion. The industrial age was upon us, and slave labor was already losing its profitability. Then (as now) a machine is much more cost effective and productive than maintaining a human worker. Slavery would have fallen out of favor within another ten years regardless. And assuming this to be true, the war becomes even more senseless. Why fight for a dying cause? Negotiation, along with it's partner, compromise, is generally a better alternative than violence and death. Compromise had already been struck on slavery in the new states like Missouri, Kansas, Texas, Minnesota. Less satisfying than throwing a tantrum and a hissy-fit, and certainly less enjoyable than just getting your own way, but better in so many ways. Compromise always leaves both sides unsatisfied, but usually better off than the alternative.
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Post by captbob on Jul 8, 2015 13:16:30 GMT -5
Give her/him a break, may just not like to argue debate as some of us do. Different folks have different subjects that they are passionate about, and different degrees to their passions.
Let's not run anyone here off just because they don't care to join in this specific reindeer game.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
Ya know.... some folks say the Civil War was about slavery (not so, but whatever) do these folks know that General Ulysses S. Grant (commander of the Union army and future President) had a slave prior to the Civil War and the Grant family owned slaves in Missouri until 1865.
How 'bout General William Tecumseh Sherman (of burned down Atlanta and march to the sea fame) had many slaves until well after the war was over and did not free them until late in 1865.
So go ahead, tell me about how the Civil War was about slavery when many of the Union generals owned slaves.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jul 8, 2015 13:20:06 GMT -5
Dang, I picked cucumbers for one day one time. Best incentive I ever had for going to college. Miserable crop to pick and piece work wages were awful back then. I'm afraid the AG industry will always need lots of hand labor....Mel
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jul 8, 2015 13:31:44 GMT -5
Give her/him a break, may just not like to argue debate as some of us do. Different folks have different subjects that they are passionate about, and different degrees to their passions. Let's not run anyone here off just because they don't care to join in this specific reindeer game. Now back to our regularly scheduled program. Ya know.... some folks say the Civil War was about slavery (not so, but whatever) do these folks know that General Ulysses S. Grant (commander of the Union army and future President) had a slave prior to the Civil War and the Grant family owned slaves in Missouri until 1865. How 'bout General William Tecumseh Sherman (of burned down Atlanta and march to the sea fame) had many slaves until well after the war was over and did not free them until late in 1865. So go ahead, tell me about how the Civil War was about slavery when many of the Union generals owned slaves. I am being nice. Just welcoming the new member to the Life, Universe, and Everything Else. Just because your new, does not mean you get a free ride or a participation award. Every post deserves a comment. Welcome to the fire forum Amygdule.
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