herchenx
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2012
Posts: 3,358
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Post by herchenx on Aug 6, 2015 0:06:28 GMT -5
There was an ad several weeks ago for a "30 inch lapidary saw" in the Denver Craigslist for $1500 that rockroller turned me on to. Sounding too good to be true I called and asked if he could double-check the blade diameter. He got back to me and said when he measured it, it was only 20 inches ("only 20 inches") Well last week he dropped the price and updated the listing, and tonight after work I called up Roland and asked if he'd want to run to Denver with me. Turned out he was free so we piled in the truckster and headed South on I-25. An hour or so later we pulled up to the house and a friendly guy named Toby met us at the gate and had the saw out in the driveway. I've never seen a cleaner saw. I threw the cash at him and we found a way to load it into the truck. It took all 3 of us, this thing is massive. I dropped Roland off at his work, along with some other goodies the guy gave us to sweeten the deal, then headed toward home with the monster still in the bed of the truck. I couldn't resist so I called up my little brother who lives North of town, and asked if I could get his help unloading something and let him borrow a generator he'd been asking about. I picked him up 20 minutes later, and within the hour I had the monster sitting in the garage. Here it is sitting by the 12" saw I've been running a few years now:  and opened up  He had it set up recirculating oil through a swamp cooler pump. I believe the oil he gave me was almag. It smells something like Diesel or Kerosene, and it is pretty thin, but it is clear. It honestly smells like a lot of the slabs I've bought off eBay or Facebook over the years, so I think this is what a lot of other folks use too. This guy had a handful of small Dugway goedes, and it sounded like that is mostly what he had been using this massive machine to cut. I started thinking of all the gary green, crazy lace, sonoran sunrise and others that I've gooped up my other saw with and don't know if I have the heart to run them through this, it is so squeaky clean. If I wanted to do messier stuff I think I'd need to buy the **15 gallons** of oil it would take to fill the sump. I love the way the pump runs and how the saw is always empty and easy to clean, but I don't know if the pump would survive a messier stone or not. SO saw experts, what is this oil, is it going to ignite or give off a ton of fumes meaning I need to run it outside, or can I run it in the garage, or do I need to bite the bullet and invest in some other oil? Also, does anyone else run a pump setup like this instead of just sumping (which is all I've ever done) - and can it handle the sludge or am I in trouble? I'm pretty stoked. my wife might kill me when she sees the thing, I need to get back into the garage and get organized, and I can finally think about cutting the 12 pound laguna nodule I've been sitting on for 3 years...
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Post by MrP on Aug 6, 2015 4:39:50 GMT -5
Great score! I have a 20" with a sump an I cut the messy stuff all the time. My drain to the sump is threaded and I have a 3/4" pipe in it to keep oil in the saw. It with a short pipe but I raised the oil level with a taller pipe. With the oil having to flow over the pipe to get to the sump much of the rock dust settles in the saw tub and never gets into the sump. The saw is easer to clean then the sump.............................MrP
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Aug 6, 2015 6:12:35 GMT -5
I cant help with your question but congrats on the new saw. Looks like a great find.
Chuck
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Post by roy on Aug 6, 2015 9:48:16 GMT -5
good deal on that ! i would use a hydrolic oil like a 100vic then cut that in half to 3/4 with diesel i use it year round cleans rite up after you put your slabs in kitty liter for a day
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Post by captbob on Aug 6, 2015 11:05:44 GMT -5
Super addition to your shop! And awfully nice of Roland to ride along to help get it loaded up.
I just don't see how that could need 15 gallons of oil. Does it have a bottom drain where you could easily drain out water if you poured it in to see how much you would need using a 5 gallon bucket?
As to flammability of the oil he gave you, put a little in something like a tuna fish can and see if you can light it. If you can do that and still have eyebrows, I wouldn't worry about it.
Using in the garage... what else is in your garage? Your laundry out there? You are going to have saw oil mist every time you use it. Depending on how much that is, that can be from bearable to "My wife is gonna kill me!". Your 12" saw ought to give you a feel for what's coming with a 20" mist wise. (double it!)
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Post by johnjsgems on Aug 6, 2015 11:41:14 GMT -5
My HP24 came with a submersible pump in a blue cut off barrel under the saw. The 2" drain pipe had a canvas bag attached to catch bigger chunks. It would be good to have the pump raised in sump so sludge would settle out below but mine never was and worked fine. Cooler pump should be in some kind of strainer to keep debris out of pump and pump needs to be securely mounted. Cooler pumps are only submersible once. The best sumps are multi chambered so oil runs over a divider trapping sludge in reservoir before oil runs over into pump reservoir. Some commercial pump sumps have three chambers. The measure sump with bucket would be a good idea if you want to use the sump splash you are used to. If it is over 10 gallons you could put some bricks or something in the sump. You would want enough volume to allow oil to stay cool.
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herchenx
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2012
Posts: 3,358
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Post by herchenx on Aug 6, 2015 11:53:57 GMT -5
He ran the saw with a 5-gallon bucket under the drain. In the bucket was this pump (the bucket sat on the floor)
Back up through the large drain hole he ran a garden hose from the pump that connects to the copper pipe that is mounted to lube the blade.
The pump was constantly splashed, being in the bucket, but pumps a LOT of oil up onto the cut (it was like a running garden hose)
The base of the pump is submerged in the oil and has a filter built into it, with small slits around the filter to keep chunks out.
As long as the almag isnt hugely flammable I'm ok trying it in the garage. I'd let the lid sit closed a while just to let the mist settle.
This setup allows the saw to use less than 2 gallons of oil and I really like it, I just dont know about the "sludgier" rocks' impact on the pump.
I was wondering about sitting the pump up on a brick to let the oil clear a bit, but honestly it is running so fast that everything would be getting churned up quite a bit no matter what.
I'll start with a geode or hard agate and wait on the messier stuff for now.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2015 16:30:46 GMT -5
Way to go John. Careful with your back lifting the huge rocks into it. I think I would have to use an engine hoist. Jim
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Post by DirtCleaner on Aug 6, 2015 17:06:51 GMT -5
One more thing to add on the flammability test. Find a way to mist the oil and try to light that. Some products don't light easily in a pool but when atomized can flash spectacularly. Best to stick with products designed for saws. Lots of people have used diesel but that will always be a gamble. Congrats on the saw!
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obsidian man
off to a rocking start
Member since June 2015
Posts: 23
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Post by obsidian man on Aug 6, 2015 18:16:27 GMT -5
I use deep well pump oil in my 16" and I have a 12v bilge pump it's a little to much pump but, the watter cooler pumps suck up too much sludge. deep well pump oil usually goes here for about $35.00/5-gallon jug! a lot cheaper than comercial. and look at the msds, material safety data sheet, it will tell you everything you want to know. I missed a 24" about a year ago because I didn't have $500.00 cash on the spot, it was really rusty but could be cleaned easily. my bad. by the way deep pump oil/mineral oil whatever name they put on the can make sure it is not highly flamable, and keep a fire extinguisher close just in case. never use kerosene that is for the old days! live longer cut more rocks. congrats, great score. I am going to build another that is 24" the rocks keep getting bigger!
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Post by nowyo on Aug 6, 2015 18:28:29 GMT -5
Can't really help with the oil thing, I'm just running mineral oil in my 18". He had it in the driveway? That's always a plus. When I found the 18" it was in a basement-had to disassemble it and bring it up the stairs. Congrats on the score!
Russ
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grizman
freely admits to licking rocks
 
Member since July 2011
Posts: 878
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Post by grizman on Aug 6, 2015 19:42:30 GMT -5
One more thing to add on the flammability test. Find a way to mist the oil and try to light that. Some products don't light easily in a pool but when atomized can flash spectacularly. Best to stick with products designed for saws. Lots of people have used diesel but that will always be a gamble. Congrats on the saw! YUP!! 
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herchenx
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2012
Posts: 3,358
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Post by herchenx on Aug 6, 2015 19:49:58 GMT -5
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Post by woodman on Aug 8, 2015 9:44:31 GMT -5
Regardless of the type of oil you use, don't open the saw as soon as sthe cut ends. Walk away and wait 30 minutes or so to let the mist separate back out. The diesel fires I have heard about happened when the lid was lifted with the saw full of mist. I use used ATF in my 18, ist stays real clean, I have some mineral oil to use if tshe ATF ever needs changing. Found some light mineral oil used for horse laxative. I use diesel in my 30 inch saw with no problems so far.
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Post by phil on Aug 8, 2015 11:14:11 GMT -5
to cut the misting down, add a bottle of bardahl no smoke to the oil. Cuts the mist down to almost nothing.
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Post by Peruano on Aug 8, 2015 13:24:01 GMT -5
The cooler pump will handle mineral oil just fine if you decide to abandon the witch's brew. If I die from something I ingest, its going to be red meat, or liquid beverages, and not somebody's idea of a cheap saw lubricant. Be kind to yourself and your family. And oh yeah, enjoy the saw. It sounds like a score. tom
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Deleted
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Member since January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2015 21:38:27 GMT -5
The cooler pump will handle mineral oil just fine if you decide to abandon the witch's brew. If I die from something I ingest, its going to be red meat, or liquid beverages, and not somebody's idea of a cheap saw lubricant. Be kind to yourself and your family. And oh yeah, enjoy the saw. It sounds like a score. tom Great post Tom! Red meat and adult beverages indeed!! Go out happy is what I say.
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stonemaster499
noticing nice landscape pebbles

Member since July 2014
Posts: 97
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Post by stonemaster499 on Aug 16, 2015 12:27:50 GMT -5
looks like an old highland park from the 60's-70's? I still have a few. The problem with these older designs, and even the latest models sold by DP and others is they break down fast if used regularly. They are designed to hold a huge amount of oil, (especially 36" size) to keep them cool, when gas was $.75/ gal. At least yours has a smaller tank in the design. Whomever was using it knew what they were doing. What happens now is many run them low with the pump, and the oil heats up. As the oil heats, in turn the blade heats up. Then after a very short period of time it starts to wobble and the diamonds deteriorate 5x faster than normal. Most people use the same blade and it lasts "forever". For those that use it occasionally, not an issue. For those that will use the saw frequently, especially if they have more than 1 saw: create a recirculation system with the oil housed outside the saw. the oil is pumped onto the saw blades and drops down into tubes that feed it back to the tank, keeping everything cool/ If you running 2-10 saws at once, this is the way to go. You have valves on each saw, if not running, no need to run the oil through it.
Coolant. You can buy the oils the saw sellers sell at ridiculous prices, or, you can use what they use in the agate cutting centers in Brazil and China use. You mentioned kerosine/diesel smell. Good call. That is the blend you want. 50:50. Kerosene is a better coolant, but has a low flash point. The combo is safe and works fine. There are fumes, and exposure on the skin needs to be addressed. For those that are more health conscious, use mineral oil. It is little more expense, but will upgrade your slabs to food-grade ready. Be aware - mineral oil on the floor is like a skating rink. Keep it clean. Test your blades and make sure they are always "true" this will keep them running much longer. You can even adjust them when they start to wobble. Also, if possible upgrade to chain driven pulleys, to replace the rubber pulleys that will require constant attention. The old saws work with worm feeds, and manual vices that are slow and wear out. Chinese systems work with sliding vices that last, and the rock can be adjusted in seconds. Our original 1970's era HP saws would break down every few months from continuous work. The mods mentioned above will keep the older machines running much longer. We run our saws continuously for 8 hours per day, since 1992. In 2001, in a monsoon thunderstorm in Madagascar - a transformer was hit by lightning and exploded beside our saw rooms. One our buildings (full of oil everywhere on the ground, walls, and likely the roof) to burn to the ground. This was before we implemented the re-circulation systems, using 10% of the oils, and keeping them stored cool underground. The saws have virtually no oil in them, and if there is a flash, nothing happens. After the accident, I went to Soledade Brazil and bought 20 autosaws. They were built 2x stronger than the american-made ones we had. Then a few years later I discovered entire towns in China that run autosaws, again, much better quality than even Brazil. The reasons for the quality difference is industry (brazilian agate slices sold by every rock shop around the world), versus a few family-run businesses that make the slab saws for a hobby industry in the US. The machines haven't really changed in 40 years, and were not even their creations in the first place!! I love my friends at DP, and have been telling them since 2001 !! Those that use saws occasionally will likely disagree. Those that cut all the time will appreciate... Good luck with your new toy herchenx
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herchenx
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2012
Posts: 3,358
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Post by herchenx on Aug 16, 2015 21:38:55 GMT -5
stonemaster499 a lot of interesting info there. I found a new oil up at the latest rock show in Buena Vista, CO and it is new manmade, thin, anti-mist, non toxic, low flammability and smells like citrus. Not cheap but I'm going to try it out and see if it works for me or not. I am a hobbyist and don't expect to be running this thing anywhere near as much as you do. The guy I got it from said it was purchased in the 80s. I'll be picking up that oil at the Denver show, I didn't have room to bring it home from our last family trip. I am curious about the vice system you mentioned, sounds sweet.
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stonemaster499
noticing nice landscape pebbles

Member since July 2014
Posts: 97
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Post by stonemaster499 on Aug 16, 2015 22:50:54 GMT -5
Since all our older US saws required constant maintenance (in Madagascar) and learned ( while we were running a 2nd factory in China,) that we could just take the saw inner parts and cut them out and junk them. Them we bought the saw "without the frame" Now our older saws will have all new inside parts. It was cheap 10 years ago, and easy to ship. The vice has locking sliders. I will look for a pic and post. More exciting was our multiblades. Imagine 8 36" saws in one saw  I had these custom built, . Put in the agate, the entire rock sliced in one pass.. Ah, the Denver Gem and Mineral shows. Used to be my favorite...
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