jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 26, 2016 9:01:43 GMT -5
pauls made mention of kaolin, so some research. Could be that the ceramic media users have been cheating. Check out this theory and make up of ceramics. K-White 7000, a refined kaolin: Ultrafine and superwhite calcined kaolin for the ceramics industry is characterized by high dielectric strength, high fusion point, low water content, and high green strength. It is commonly used in whiteware products, insulators, refractories, and bio-ceramics. K-WHITE 7000 Al2O3 45±2.0% SiO2 52±2.0%" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THEORY by James: Such refined kaolin is probably the make up of ceramic media used for tumbling. It is high in aluminum oxide. But softer than pure aluminum oxide because it is more than 50% silica. But harder than Mohs 7. I think mohs 8. Guessing ceramic media probably serves as giant polishing particles that impart a finish. In a vibe, you add AO 500 to rocks and ceramic media, it imparts a 500 finish to the rocks and lesser so to the harder ceramic media. As the AO 500 breaks down the rocks and the ceramic media get smoother and impart a polish to the softer rocks. The harder ceramic media assists breaking down the harder(pure) AO 500, but also serves as a polishing abrasive as it gets polished. A rock like obsidian is much slower to break down the AO 500, but 50-60% ceramic media will assist breaking it down. And the media serving as a polishing effect in itself. Obviously the ceramic media is harder than Mohs 7 rocks, that is why it can be used over and over. Guessing, but I think that is what is going on. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So finally going to ceramic media for the vibe. Albeit round to attempt better rolling action in the Viking vibe. I think Chuck, Jugglerguy tkvancil others have been cheating(out smarting) us non ceramic media folks. Using (soft) glass as media was a slower polishing process and did not give consistent luster. Glass too soft to break down AO fast or at all. Switched to quartz pebble media and polish times were shortened and had higher luster. My first purchase of ceramic media to charge a vibe. 10mm balls, 8 pounds. $45 ppd. Ebay. They are used and have a high polish. Included in the batch was a few drilled glass beads. Probably the target item to be polished.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 26, 2016 10:15:02 GMT -5
Knoop hardness, ceramic media harder than quartz @1000-1500. And yes, at least Mohs 8 Strange, harder materials are supposed to steal the shine of softer materials when tumbling. Apparently this rule does not fly with aluminum oxide based ceramics. Apologizing for the brain storms... topaz 1320 garnet 1350 aluminum oxide 2100 silicon carbide 2500 oxide ceramics(ceramic media) 1000-1500 quartz 720
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 26, 2016 10:29:08 GMT -5
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 26, 2016 10:37:08 GMT -5
Kaolin pit, over 30% aluminum oxide
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 26, 2016 10:39:01 GMT -5
Gals in aluminum oxide (had to censor these images) I once dated a champion mud wrestler gal, no joke. She went to Auburn Univesity and travelled on the weekends to make money doing mud wrestling challenges.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 26, 2016 10:46:56 GMT -5
Aerial view of china clay(kaolin) pit. Lots of aluminum oxide !
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 26, 2016 10:49:41 GMT -5
Bagged kaolin in China
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 26, 2016 11:10:38 GMT -5
Edible kaolin for digestive problems
|
|
|
Post by Jugglerguy on Jan 26, 2016 12:22:42 GMT -5
Cheating, huh? Sounds like a poor loser to me. If you can't beat 'em join 'em. I've wondered about ceramic media being harder than the rocks I polish but not harming them. I never thought of the ceramic actually doing some of the polishing. If it is, then the particles that erode from the ceramic must be smaller that the particles of the aluminum oxide polish, right? The maker of the Lot-O recommends using "aluminum oxide pellets" in the Lot-O. Read more here. Does this mean that regular ceramic pellets do not include aluminum oxide? Besides density, how are they different?
|
|
tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2011
Posts: 1,547
|
Post by tkvancil on Jan 26, 2016 12:38:26 GMT -5
I found one description from a company that makes ceramics for rock tumbling. It said that the media was bonded with AlOx. Not exactly sure what that means ...
Last two vibe batches ... one all rock ... one about 40% ceramic ... The batch with ceramic got a shine about 24 hours quicker in the pre polish. I thought the final shine was slightly better but couldn't tell any difference in photos.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 26, 2016 13:43:41 GMT -5
Cheating, huh? Sounds like a poor loser to me. If you can't beat 'em join 'em. I've wondered about ceramic media being harder than the rocks I polish but not harming them. I never thought of the ceramic actually doing some of the polishing. If it is, then the particles that erode from the ceramic must be smaller that the particles of the aluminum oxide polish, right? The maker of the Lot-O recommends using "aluminum oxide pellets" in the Lot-O. Read more here. Does this mean that regular ceramic pellets do not include aluminum oxide? Besides density, how are they different? tkvancil, Rob Yes Rob, got a 20 pound crow in the crock pot. Eatin' crow LOL. Greek seasoning.. About all ceramic media made for tumbling is 35-45% aluminum oxide. Straight up. About all high grade ceramic including the family china set is likely 35% aluminum oxide on more. It's about all made from china clay(kaolin) which is 30+% aluminum oxide straight out of the ground. And as you mentioned in the link has a higher specific gravity with higher aluminum oxide content. Higher aluminum oxide content ceramic require more precision/costlier processing. Eroded particles from ceramic media probably very very small. It lasts so long, so particles must be small. Lot-O recommendation is likely referring to high grade ceramic media(=higher percentage) aluminum oxide. But about all ceramic media is high grade ceramic at 45% aluminum oxide. The rest is silica excepting 1%. It is a mix normally a 45/55 mix, the silica probably keeps it from cracking up, being brittle. Lot-O is referring to 'Aluminum oxide pellets' vs porcelain media or glass media or plastic media or stainless media. Media comes in may forms. Crow, potatoes and brussel sprouts
|
|
|
Post by Jugglerguy on Jan 26, 2016 14:37:30 GMT -5
I should buy some of those "aluminum oxide pellets" some day. I don't remember the name of the store that is owned by Tom, the Lot-O manufacturer.
|
|
|
Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Jan 26, 2016 14:49:33 GMT -5
No cheating or secrets here. I have stated my exact methods all along. Your choice to not follow. If I remember correctly it took a good long time to convince you to try a vibe tumbler too Your round ceramics from EBAY are more expensive then the mixed sizes from the rockshed so not only do they have to work but they have to work better. I have a load of cabs in the loto right now and there are probably only 30 cabs and then 4 pounds of mixed ceramics. I still keep thinking that those round marbles would not create enough points of contact to polish the flat backs on the cabs and the domed tops. Its up to you to prove me wrong. Looking forward to the report. Chuck
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 26, 2016 15:24:47 GMT -5
No cheating or secrets here. I have stated my exact methods all along. Your choice to not follow. If I remember correctly it took a good long time to convince you to try a vibe tumbler too Your round ceramics from EBAY are more expensive then the mixed sizes from the rockshed so not only do they have to work but they have to work better. I have a load of cabs in the loto right now and there are probably only 30 cabs and then 4 pounds of mixed ceramics. I still keep thinking that those round marbles would not create enough points of contact to polish the flat backs on the cabs and the domed tops. Its up to you to prove me wrong. Looking forward to the report. Chuck Never any secrets, well aware. You are very forthcoming. Only defiance on my part. Started a load today with the round ones today. Ceramic thing new to me so I can't compare to the cylinders. See your point about point of contact. Made two videos of them running, one with less than round rock media and one with the balls. Just to see if it speeds up the action. If in fact that helps anything.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 26, 2016 15:25:42 GMT -5
I should buy some of those "aluminum oxide pellets" some day. I don't remember the name of the store that is owned by Tom, the Lot-O manufacturer. Good luck with those Rob. Please post results.
|
|
|
Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Jan 26, 2016 15:28:43 GMT -5
No cheating or secrets here. I have stated my exact methods all along. Your choice to not follow. If I remember correctly it took a good long time to convince you to try a vibe tumbler too Your round ceramics from EBAY are more expensive then the mixed sizes from the rockshed so not only do they have to work but they have to work better. I have a load of cabs in the loto right now and there are probably only 30 cabs and then 4 pounds of mixed ceramics. I still keep thinking that those round marbles would not create enough points of contact to polish the flat backs on the cabs and the domed tops. Its up to you to prove me wrong. Looking forward to the report. Chuck Never any secrets, well aware. You are very forthcoming. Only defiance on my part. Started a load today with the round ones today. Ceramic thing new to me so I can't compare to the cylinders. See your point about point of contact. Made two videos of them running, one with less than round rock media and one with the balls. Just to see if it speeds up the action. If in fact that helps anything. Not sure what you mean about speeding up the action. I strive for the same action at all times and control that with a spray bottle of water and the amount of borax. In a perfect world I want to see the same amount of action every time I open the lid. The only slow down I ever get is in 120/220 when left overnight on the first day and in the morning I spray it to get it back where I want it. This goes for loads with 90% ceramic and for loads with hardly any ceramic at all. Chuck
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 26, 2016 15:44:20 GMT -5
If tumbling big rocks I get a slower roll. Or if I use flat rocks for media. Have started using rounder quartz pebbles and the rocks are moving(rolling) faster. It is a difference in 'roll' speed from different media shapes. Again, I am not sure if the roll speed means anything. But I get better mixing with round media, the flat media did not have much mixing or circulation. It is apparently not an issue with the Lot-O, but it seems to be with the Viking.
Round ceramic media
|
|
|
Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Jan 26, 2016 16:00:25 GMT -5
If tumbling big rocks I get a slower roll. Or if I use flat rocks for media. Have started using rounder quartz pebbles and the rocks are moving(rolling) faster. It is a difference in 'roll' speed from different media shapes. Again, I am not sure if the roll speed means anything. But I get better mixing with round media, the flat media did not have much mixing or circulation. It is apparently not an issue with the Lot-O, but it seems to be with the Viking. Round ceramic media I have a feeling that Viking is a whole different animal. The Mini-sonics have their own quirks too. Your stuff is coming out great so you have it dialed it. I really never tumbling anything oddly big and if I do its only one or two in with my normal mix so I do not have much experience there. Chuck
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,562
|
Post by jamesp on Jan 26, 2016 19:37:59 GMT -5
If tumbling big rocks I get a slower roll. Or if I use flat rocks for media. Have started using rounder quartz pebbles and the rocks are moving(rolling) faster. It is a difference in 'roll' speed from different media shapes. Again, I am not sure if the roll speed means anything. But I get better mixing with round media, the flat media did not have much mixing or circulation. It is apparently not an issue with the Lot-O, but it seems to be with the Viking. Round ceramic media I have a feeling that Viking is a whole different animal. The Mini-sonics have their own quirks too. Your stuff is coming out great so you have it dialed it. I really never tumbling anything oddly big and if I do its only one or two in with my normal mix so I do not have much experience there. Chuck I don't think the Viking is cutting edge like the Lot-O. It can be cantankerous. The adjustment issues are not spelled well either. The grit doses I copied from you guys; the instructions said to use way more grit. And it flat out frosts obsidian unless you turn it way down which causes the action to stop if the slurry gets to thick. It has been nice to have a routine that is repeatable on Mohs 7 stuff. I think you have menus that work great on a wide assortment.
|
|
|
Post by pauls on Jan 27, 2016 5:11:46 GMT -5
A mud wrestling Gal and censored images, my goodness james,no wonder you knew that Kaolin was slick. Talkin about mud wrestling, when I was a teenager the town where we spent our summer holidays had a small abandoned open pit coal mine, half full of water so a great swimming hole, plus there was a depression on one side of the wall of the cut that was filled with deep slippery clay, great fun. They even shot a Coke commercial there. They brought in their own beautiful people but paid us to be extras standing around clapping and cheering as the beautiful people took running jumps into the mud pit, they didn't reckon on the weight of the clay filling the bikinis of the gals so that when they got out they were unclothed. Not that you would have known until they jumped into the water to clean off.
|
|