huskeric
spending too much on rocks
Member since May 2016
Posts: 353
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Post by huskeric on Aug 16, 2016 19:32:07 GMT -5
OK, on another thread, I posted my first batch of rock, some of which are here: On the right, you can see a black stone that was REALLY shiny (not my work) next to my black rock. the shine was exponentially better on the other one. SO... I took these rocks and put them back in stage 3 for 10 days, and now I have them in stage 4, and they've been running for three days. My barrel is probably at least 50% pellets, and I followed the directions to the letter on polish/water, it has some foam in it, which I know in earlier stages is due to too much water. I added about .75 oz of polish to the batch to try to thicken it up, which may be a mistake, but I'll learn, eventually. I wanted to ask a question on burnishing. ubermenehune , you mentioned that you use bits of leather and chopped up dowel for burnishing. When you do this, do you do that dry, or do you add water and/or Borax, Ivory soap, etc.? I am planning to let this run for at least a week on the polish stage, and perhaps even two weeks, because I want this to be the last time for this batch. Next, I will run them with Ivory soap shavings, overnight. If that doesn't produce the shine I so deeply desire, would the leather/dowel mix improve things? I know I'm being neurotic about this, but I so want to speed up my learning process. My only other option is to buy about 50 more tumblers and keep trying different stuff. Or, learn patience...
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Post by orrum on Aug 16, 2016 19:52:10 GMT -5
One word.....Loto. or Vibe!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2016 20:41:17 GMT -5
You running obsidian with agates in polish?
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ubermenehune
spending too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 293
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Post by ubermenehune on Aug 16, 2016 22:03:52 GMT -5
Hey Eric - I was experimenting with leather and wood as alternatives to plastic pellets, which I find annoying. I know that there are some very knowledgeable folks here who consistently achieve that 'wet' shine using rotary machines, but i agree with orrum. For someone impatient like me, getting a lot-o was the difference. Hit me up if you want to check out my setup (and trade some material).
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Post by orrum on Aug 17, 2016 6:58:59 GMT -5
Hey Scott I tumble obsidian and so does Tony with whatever and our vibes give us both liquid wet shine on the obsidian.
I use a lot of mini slabs and tumble cabs. The trick is don't let my Loto chatter and use Borax in all stages fast. As soon as u start the loto put the borax in a little at a time. It will quieten down immediately. Also I learned from Chuck you can leave them in a stage too long or not long enough, you gotta check several by rinsing and drying. I use Borax in the first stage, some folks dont. I use it because it has lanolin or some kinda lubricant that helps the stones keep moving even when the slurry starts to get too thick. Thickness of slurry is crucial. Like Goldilocks found out....There is too thick and too thin...only personal experience and ability to use that experience will get you the easy route to loto liquid wet shine!!!
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Post by orrum on Aug 17, 2016 7:10:15 GMT -5
Oh I do not burnish. I do a two stage thing with Dawn aND Borax at the end of the polish cycle. Once again slurry thickness is vital. I put a teaspoon of Dawn in with the polish and let it go for a few minutes with a couple spritz of water. Then when it's all bubbled up I add a tablespoon of Borax and a spritz or so of water. It will stop moving the stones, then fill the barrel with water. After a minute or two or three I go clean out and rinse and dry in the shade. I go by and shake and stir them occasionally, they are in a beer flat on several layers of paper towels. If a few have white residue in cracks, pits etc then they either go into a rotary to get rid of the flaws or into the treasure chest to give to kids at the flea market. It's all about slurry thickness and not letting them chatter.
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huskeric
spending too much on rocks
Member since May 2016
Posts: 353
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Post by huskeric on Aug 17, 2016 8:22:30 GMT -5
You running obsidian with agates in polish? That is a very good question. This is a conglomeration of stuff that was either picked up out of my yard or purchased as "rough tumbling mix" online. It probably started out as four or more stage 1 barrels, and I picked out the ones that were ready for the next stage and put them together. If I have the wrong stuff with the wrong stuff, that might explain part of my problem. The agate in that picture was pulled out and put back for more shaping. It was actually probably the shiniest of all of them in terms of taking a polish. I do want to get a Lot-O, but I just bought a saw/grinder, and I need to finish putting that together and let the heat go down a bit with my lovely bride before I drop another two bills on something else that makes noise and takes up space. =) I really want to figure out what I am doing right/wrong with the rotary. I know it CAN be done, and I believe that if I can acquire the knowledge to rotary well, that if/when I get a vibe, I'll just be that much better. Plus, I figure if I'm making bush-league mistakes with a rotary, they may just be magnified with a vibe. Wax on, wax off... Paint the fence...
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Post by rockpickerforever on Aug 17, 2016 10:58:55 GMT -5
Hey Scott I tumble obsidian and so does Tony with whatever and our vibes give us both liquid wet shine on the obsidian. I use a lot of mini slabs and tumble cabs. The trick is don't let my Loto chatter and use Borax in all stages fast. As soon as u start the loto put the borax in a little at a time. It will quieten down immediately. Also I learned from Chuck you can leave them in a stage too long or not long enough, you gotta check several by rinsing and drying. I use Borax in the first stage, some folks dont. I use it because it has lanolin or some kinda lubricant that helps the stones keep moving even when the slurry starts to get too thick. Thickness of slurry is crucial. Like Goldilocks found out....There is too thick and too thin...only personal experience and ability to use that experience will get you the easy route to loto liquid wet shine!!! Don't wanna burst your bubble, Bill, but 20 Mule Team Borax does NOT have lanolin in it. It is pure 100% Sodium Tetraborate (Na2B4O7·10H2O or Na2[B4O5(OH)4]·8H2O), a salt of sodium borate. (from Wiki).
I use it as a detergent booster. "20 Mule Team® Borax acts by raising pH levels of water closer to neutral. In other words, Borax softens water." You can find it at Target, Walmart, Smart and Final, etc., in a 4 lb 1 0z box. Online prices range from $4.09 (Target) to $8.99 for a 4 lb 12 oz box. Seems the size of the box fluctuates almost as much as the prices! It used to come in a large box, maybe 5 lbs? Anyway...
Now, if you are using BORAXO hand cleaner for burnishing, that does have lanolin in it. They have added soap, sodium chloride (salt), fragrance and glycerine (among other things) to it. Use whatever works for you!!!!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 11:11:07 GMT -5
You running obsidian with agates in polish? That is a very good question. This is a conglomeration of stuff that was either picked up out of my yard or purchased as "rough tumbling mix" online. It probably started out as four or more stage 1 barrels, and I picked out the ones that were ready for the next stage and put them together. If I have the wrong stuff with the wrong stuff, that might explain part of my problem. The agate in that picture was pulled out and put back for more shaping. It was actually probably the shiniest of all of them in terms of taking a polish. I do want to get a Lot-O, but I just bought a saw/grinder, and I need to finish putting that together and let the heat go down a bit with my lovely bride before I drop another two bills on something else that makes noise and takes up space. =) I really want to figure out what I am doing right/wrong with the rotary. I know it CAN be done, and I believe that if I can acquire the knowledge to rotary well, that if/when I get a vibe, I'll just be that much better. Plus, I figure if I'm making bush-league mistakes with a rotary, they may just be magnified with a vibe. Wax on, wax off... Paint the fence... Well, tumbling anything but glass with obsidian will cause this problem. Nothing will change that.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 11:12:31 GMT -5
Hey Scott I tumble obsidian and so does Tony with whatever and our vibes give us both liquid wet shine on the obsidian. I use a lot of mini slabs and tumble cabs. The trick is don't let my Loto chatter and use Borax in all stages fast. As soon as u start the loto put the borax in a little at a time. It will quieten down immediately. Also I learned from Chuck you can leave them in a stage too long or not long enough, you gotta check several by rinsing and drying. I use Borax in the first stage, some folks dont. I use it because it has lanolin or some kinda lubricant that helps the stones keep moving even when the slurry starts to get too thick. Thickness of slurry is crucial. Like Goldilocks found out....There is too thick and too thin...only personal experience and ability to use that experience will get you the easy route to loto liquid wet shine!!! I dont believe our original poster is using a vibe.
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huskeric
spending too much on rocks
Member since May 2016
Posts: 353
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Post by huskeric on Aug 17, 2016 13:10:31 GMT -5
Nope, rotary. I have a vibe on my wish list. =)
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bcgal
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since March 2016
Posts: 94
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Post by bcgal on Aug 17, 2016 13:31:51 GMT -5
I have a vibe on my wish list too...
I have never used leather in the rotary but i I do use plastic pellets for the prepolish and polish cycles. i just wash the pellets good and reuse them just for the two cycles. I should clarify that each cycle has its own batch of pellets. then i use an Ivory soap bar to clean the stones when they are done. Still working on the patience though. by the time I get to polish I am so excited to see the stones come out that I get impatient and hurry it through. haha
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ubermenehune
spending too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 293
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Post by ubermenehune on Aug 17, 2016 16:08:20 GMT -5
I really want to figure out what I am doing right/wrong with the rotary. I know it CAN be done, and I believe that if I can acquire the knowledge to rotary well, that if/when I get a vibe, I'll just be that much better. Plus, I figure if I'm making bush-league mistakes with a rotary, they may just be magnified with a vibe. Sure. I'm no expert, but for me, getting a good shine using a rotary meant sticking to fundamentals and understanding tumbling physics: - Ensuring hardness of tumbling material is relatively uniform. - Adequate space-filling, cushioning material; Minimize impact, maximize friction. - Lots of patience. Stage 4 can take longer than 7 days. Most folks stress the importance of eliminating contamination (coarser grit leftover from previous stages), which is a good rule of thumb. But I don't meticulously scrub to remove every particle of grit, and my batches turn out just fine.
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huskeric
spending too much on rocks
Member since May 2016
Posts: 353
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Post by huskeric on Aug 17, 2016 17:16:03 GMT -5
That is a very good question. This is a conglomeration of stuff that was either picked up out of my yard or purchased as "rough tumbling mix" online. It probably started out as four or more stage 1 barrels, and I picked out the ones that were ready for the next stage and put them together. If I have the wrong stuff with the wrong stuff, that might explain part of my problem. The agate in that picture was pulled out and put back for more shaping. It was actually probably the shiniest of all of them in terms of taking a polish. I do want to get a Lot-O, but I just bought a saw/grinder, and I need to finish putting that together and let the heat go down a bit with my lovely bride before I drop another two bills on something else that makes noise and takes up space. =) I really want to figure out what I am doing right/wrong with the rotary. I know it CAN be done, and I believe that if I can acquire the knowledge to rotary well, that if/when I get a vibe, I'll just be that much better. Plus, I figure if I'm making bush-league mistakes with a rotary, they may just be magnified with a vibe. Wax on, wax off... Paint the fence... Well, tumbling anything but glass with obsidian will cause this problem. Nothing will change that. See, you just dropped some knowledge on me. Now all I have to do is learn to distinguish obsidian from other stuff. =) I have read up on some of the hardness testing on the boards here, which are fantastic. Now I just need to take said knowledge and put it to practice. Thanks!
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 18, 2016 10:48:42 GMT -5
You running obsidian with agates in polish? That is a very good question. This is a conglomeration of stuff that was either picked up out of my yard or purchased as "rough tumbling mix" online. It probably started out as four or more stage 1 barrels, and I picked out the ones that were ready for the next stage and put them together. If I have the wrong stuff with the wrong stuff, that might explain part of my problem. The agate in that picture was pulled out and put back for more shaping. It was actually probably the shiniest of all of them in terms of taking a polish. I do want to get a Lot-O, but I just bought a saw/grinder, and I need to finish putting that together and let the heat go down a bit with my lovely bride before I drop another two bills on something else that makes noise and takes up space. =) I really want to figure out what I am doing right/wrong with the rotary. I know it CAN be done, and I believe that if I can acquire the knowledge to rotary well, that if/when I get a vibe, I'll just be that much better. Plus, I figure if I'm making bush-league mistakes with a rotary, they may just be magnified with a vibe. Wax on, wax off... Paint the fence... Boy it feels like you are reading my mind. I bet I am making the same mistakes you are because my first batch looks just like yours. I think one of my initial problems was that I was mixing the wrong materials together (different hardnesses in the same batch) and the quality of my starting material wasn't up to snuff. A couple of forum members I think noticed that my starting material might not be very good and offered to send me some and I finally took one up on their offer and got some nice looking feed stock that is now in the rough stage. So far things are looking promising with that material. My other strategy was to do a batch with only one type of material in my second tumbler. It is all red jasper that I found and I have finally gotten to the point where I will start the polish stage this afternoon. One thing I have noticed about my jasper is that some of the material is just porous. I would get the stones to the point where they were perfectly smooth looking at the end of stage 1 only to find pits in some of them at the end of stage 2... I tried using ceramic media and later plastic beads to give a gentler tumble thinking the rocks were banging into each other. None of those efforts seemed to make much if any difference in my case. In my frustration I decided to take some of the problem rocks and cut them open with my tile saw. What I found was that most of the problem rocks had tiny cavities and in some cases cracks throughout. This means no matter how much I tumble them, they will never give me that "perfect" surface that I am dreaming of. When I saw this result a light went off in my head and I realized something that is probably very obvious to most of the people here. If I am picking up rocks from gravel roads that have had lots of hard impacts or from river beds I may not be getting top quality material, especially considering that I don't really know how to effectively select rocks. I am now starting to get pickier and when I see lots of pits or cracks I throw them back. I also purchased some agates because I kept reading that agates are easier to shine. I purchased some on Amazon.com for $5-8/lb and what I found was that this budget material is probably not of sufficient quality to get the results I am after. For example, I purchased some Brazilian agates for something like $5/lb. what I got was a bunch of tumbler sized rough rocks (3/4"- 1 1/2") that appear to have been through a pulvarizer. Most of them had deep cracks and the shapes were very irregular. I tumbled them for weeks and wore them down quite a bit using probably $20 worth of grit and still had those deep cracks and some very unappealing shapes. It was at that point that I started reading here and got the idea to dust off the tile saw that was gathering dust in the garage. I cut away a lot of those irregular protuberances from the agates and at least had better shapes but ultimately the cracks were still eating my lunch. My rock tumbling budget is spent for the next several months but I have decided that next time I purchase rough I will stick with the top quality rough and eventually buy a Lot-O. Buying the cheapest agates was a false economy. I ended up with what might be one or two rocks that I will be happy with. So after I do the math I ended up spending nearly $30/rock for a couple of small agates not to mention all the time I spent messing with them. Since my budget is very small I tend to be a big time bargain hunter but I think I will need to fight the urge to buy up the "close out" specials. Anyway, sorry for the rambling, your post just hit really close to home.
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 18, 2016 10:53:39 GMT -5
I have a vibe on my wish list too... I have never used leather in the rotary but i I do use plastic pellets for the prepolish and polish cycles. i just wash the pellets good and reuse them just for the two cycles. I should clarify that each cycle has its own batch of pellets. then i use an Ivory soap bar to clean the stones when they are done. Still working on the patience though. by the time I get to polish I am so excited to see the stones come out that I get impatient and hurry it through. haha I once tried cutting up a paper towel into little 1/2" squares and burnishing with it and dish soap and it worked well for getting rid of the white polish in the tiny cracks.
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 18, 2016 11:17:43 GMT -5
I really want to figure out what I am doing right/wrong with the rotary. I know it CAN be done, and I believe that if I can acquire the knowledge to rotary well, that if/when I get a vibe, I'll just be that much better. Plus, I figure if I'm making bush-league mistakes with a rotary, they may just be magnified with a vibe. Sure. I'm no expert, but for me, getting a good shine using a rotary meant sticking to fundamentals and understanding tumbling physics: - Ensuring hardness of tumbling material is relatively uniform. - Adequate space-filling, cushioning material; Minimize impact, maximize friction. - Lots of patience. Stage 4 can take longer than 7 days. Most folks stress the importance of eliminating contamination (coarser grit leftover from previous stages), which is a good rule of thumb. But I don't meticulously scrub to remove every particle of grit, and my batches turn out just fine. I have often scratched my head about the importance of getting the rocks perfectly clean before moving them to the next stage. I even did a crude experiment (definitely not conclusive) where I took a bunch of material (Brazilian agates) and ran half with just doing a thorough rinse and half doing a double wash in the tumbler with ivory soap and even individually scrubbed each rock with a toothbrush and wet rag and carried them through the process. In the end I couldn't tell which rock came from which group with my untrained eye. I think the reason for my results might be partially due to my making sure there weren't places for grit to get held up in my rocks. If there were pits or large cracks they did not leave the first stage. The second hypothesis I have is that I let the grit completely break down before moving to the next stage. What I mean is that my course grit started out at 46-70 but after three days the particle size was considerably smaller in my tumbler. After 5 days or so I was getting a finish on my rocks in the course stage that resembles what I get typically after three days in the 120-220 grit stage. So carrying material that had broken down for 5 days in the coarse stage wouldn't probably cause harm in the 120-220 stage because the residual grit that is carried over is already finer than what I am introducing to the next stage. Hypothetically this will be a bigger issue by the time you get to the polish stage. I think I was able to get away with rinse only there because I am using aluminum oxide 600 grit before going into the polish stage. It is my understanding that when this breaks down it more or less acts like tiny ceramic media. Anyway I just thought I would throw that out there to see if it makes sense to anyone.
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Post by Garage Rocker on Aug 18, 2016 12:02:52 GMT -5
Sure. I'm no expert, but for me, getting a good shine using a rotary meant sticking to fundamentals and understanding tumbling physics: - Ensuring hardness of tumbling material is relatively uniform. - Adequate space-filling, cushioning material; Minimize impact, maximize friction. - Lots of patience. Stage 4 can take longer than 7 days. Most folks stress the importance of eliminating contamination (coarser grit leftover from previous stages), which is a good rule of thumb. But I don't meticulously scrub to remove every particle of grit, and my batches turn out just fine. I have often scratched my head about the importance of getting the rocks perfectly clean before moving them to the next stage. I even did a crude experiment (definitely not conclusive) where I took a bunch of material (Brazilian agates) and ran half with just doing a thorough rinse and half doing a double wash in the tumbler with ivory soap and even individually scrubbed each rock with a toothbrush and wet rag and carried them through the process. In the end I couldn't tell which rock came from which group with my untrained eye. I think the reason for my results might be partially due to my making sure there weren't places for grit to get held up in my rocks. If there were pits or large cracks they did not leave the first stage. The second hypothesis I have is that I let the grit completely break down before moving to the next stage. What I mean is that my course grit started out at 46-70 but after three days the particle size was considerably smaller in my tumbler. After 5 days or so I was getting a finish on my rocks in the course stage that resembles what I get typically after three days in the 120-220 grit stage. So carrying material that had broken down for 5 days in the coarse stage wouldn't probably cause harm in the 120-220 stage because the residual grit that is carried over is already finer than what I am introducing to the next stage. Hypothetically this will be a bigger issue by the time you get to the polish stage. I think I was able to get away with rinse only there because I am using aluminum oxide 600 grit before going into the polish stage. It is my understanding that when this breaks down it more or less acts like tiny ceramic media. Anyway I just thought I would throw that out there to see if it makes sense to anyone. Both explanations make perfect sense. If you tumble stage one correctly, there shouldn't be places for large grit particles to hide, only to come out later. You are right about that. And leaving the stages rolling long enough should break the grit down to smaller size, so contamination shouldn't be an issue in the following stage. I rinse the rocks in a plastic colander with the garden hose, mixing them up as I rinse. Give the barrel and rim a rinse, then right back into the tumbler, no scrubbing is necessary.
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Post by greig on Aug 18, 2016 14:34:23 GMT -5
This is a very informative thread.
Something that I learned with my rotary tumbling is to inspect the rocks going into the polish stage and remove rocks that have cracks and might break, plus any that look like they might trap grit or really small ones that are irregular (probably broken pieces). A little bit of contamination can ruin a polish by lightly scratching the good stones.
I don't scrub my rocks individually, but make sure they are well rinsed. I only have one barrel and if I am unsure if I can get it clean or want to make sure my rocks are clean before polishing, I sometimes put the rinsed rocks into the "clean" tumbler with water and baking soda for a quick spin and then rinse everything again. I have never heard anyone else doing this, but for me is a quick and easy way to make sure things are "Dutch clean".
I have found it is also quite important to make sure the rocks are no longer banging into each other in the polish stage by adding other rocks to polish or filler. A cheap and dirty filler that works for me is cut up elastics.
I also typically use (about) equal amounts of tumble-polish and baking soda in the polish stage, so the slurry is somewhat thick. I always need to pace myself at this stage and not stop it too soon, just because I am impatient (typically 7-8 days).
For burnishing, I just use ivory soap shavings and sometimes add a bit of sugar for more than 3 hours and usually about a half day.
What I need to learn on this forum is how you guys harden a stone for tumbling. I have seen hints and am intrigued.
Greig
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Post by spiceman on Aug 18, 2016 22:40:23 GMT -5
Well, OK... I'm trying something new for me too. Still testing but a can of Coke. Tumble for a couple hours then let it set overnight. Don't drink it when done. HA But my testing has stopped and all my thoughts on the TUMBLE OFF. RTH
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