inbtb
Cave Dweller
Member since May 2016
Posts: 351
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Post by inbtb on Dec 15, 2016 10:36:09 GMT -5
I had not checked tumblers for a couple of days. Been cold the last couple of days and this is what I found today. 3 froze barrels.
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Post by Garage Rocker on Dec 15, 2016 10:37:08 GMT -5
Yikes!!!
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inbtb
Cave Dweller
Member since May 2016
Posts: 351
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Post by inbtb on Dec 15, 2016 10:39:18 GMT -5
And sitting on the kitchen table. Need to move them soon.
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Post by Garage Rocker on Dec 15, 2016 10:40:31 GMT -5
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inbtb
Cave Dweller
Member since May 2016
Posts: 351
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Post by inbtb on Dec 15, 2016 10:45:24 GMT -5
I might try some RV anti freeze. Or just wait till weather gets back up to the low 30's.
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Post by greig on Dec 15, 2016 10:57:22 GMT -5
I tumbled last winter, in my unheated garage, and did not get any freezing of the water until temperatures hit below -20C outside. This was a small barrel, which rotates faster than the big ones, and seemed to keep the slury moving too fast to freeze. I now have a 12 lb tumbler, which rotates slower and I would expect -40 auto windshield washer fluid might be a good alternative to water. I bet salt would help too. That said, I also expect to have to pop the lid more often to release gas, depending on the type of rock being worked. ie. I have no idea what the chemical reactions will be.
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inbtb
Cave Dweller
Member since May 2016
Posts: 351
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Post by inbtb on Dec 15, 2016 11:23:15 GMT -5
Mine were in an unheated garage. If I remember correctly the barrel that was not frozen solid was closest to the motor. So maybe some of the heat from the motor helped keep water from freezing. Might try an old cooler with a loose cover on top to let some heat out as to not overheat motor. Will have to wait until they thaw first.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Dec 15, 2016 11:28:21 GMT -5
Your slurry looks fairly thick.
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Post by captbob on Dec 15, 2016 11:31:57 GMT -5
Your slurry looks fairly thick. Was thinking the same, but figure the frozen water has reduced the water level. Ice, the new Georgia clay! ETA: ooooh, just noticed the new avatar Rob. Nice!!!
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,555
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Post by jamesp on Dec 15, 2016 13:32:23 GMT -5
What do you think about adding salt ?
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Post by captbob on Dec 15, 2016 13:52:39 GMT -5
Using Google, I read that salt lowers the freezing point of water. The five or so sites I quickly skimmed all agreed on this. None said by how much. Maybe it depends on the amount of salt?
"At the freezing temperature of pure water, molecules enter and leave the solid at the same rate. However, adding salt to the mixture disrupts this. Under normal conditions, water freezes at 0 degrees Celsius or 32 degrees Fahrenheit. However, by adding salt, the water will cause the freezing point to become lower."
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ChicagoDave
has rocks in the head
Member since June 2016
Posts: 720
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Post by ChicagoDave on Dec 15, 2016 14:35:11 GMT -5
Also from Google:
"The mass of NaCl is about 60gm/mole. When the Na and Cl separate, that makes about one mole total dissolved ions in 250 cc, or about 4 moles per liter. You get almost 2°C reduction for each mole/liter. "
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,555
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Post by jamesp on Dec 15, 2016 15:32:57 GMT -5
Salt is pretty benign. Causes rust, but makes a chemically stable solution in most cases. Saline solution used for eyes, ocean water, etc.
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Post by MrMike on Dec 15, 2016 21:30:30 GMT -5
I had not checked tumblers for a couple of days. Been cold the last couple of days and this is what I found today. 3 froze barrels. I emailed Lortone asking about the rubber used to make their barrels & got this response: "The rubber is an SBR compound (styrene butadiene). My research shows that it should be ok with propylene glycol (antifreeze), and light salt (sodium or potassium chloride) solutions below 70 degrees. but you should always use only a small amount until you test it." SBR is compatible with alcohols so I'm going to try some of the windshield washer fluid.
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Post by wigglinrocks on Dec 15, 2016 21:42:03 GMT -5
Are those Lortone barrels ? Look like Thumlers but I don't think the rubber compound would be any different .
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inbtb
Cave Dweller
Member since May 2016
Posts: 351
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Post by inbtb on Dec 15, 2016 22:46:46 GMT -5
Thumlers
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dottyt
spending too much on rocks
Member since July 2016
Posts: 305
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Post by dottyt on Dec 16, 2016 0:30:24 GMT -5
Also from Google: "The mass of NaCl is about 60gm/mole. When the Na and Cl separate, that makes about one mole total dissolved ions in 250 cc, or about 4 moles per liter. You get almost 2°C reduction for each mole/liter. " There you go. Everything you need to figure out how much salt you need! Glad I am no longer in school and not in a cold climate therefore I no longer have to figure such stuff out.
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inbtb
Cave Dweller
Member since May 2016
Posts: 351
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Post by inbtb on Dec 16, 2016 13:33:26 GMT -5
Also from Google: "The mass of NaCl is about 60gm/mole. When the Na and Cl separate, that makes about one mole total dissolved ions in 250 cc, or about 4 moles per liter. You get almost 2°C reduction for each mole/liter. " There you go. Everything you need to figure out how much salt you need! Glad I am no longer in school and not in a cold climate therefore I no longer have to figure such stuff out. Yeah! I think I'll just wait for spring.
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ChicagoDave
has rocks in the head
Member since June 2016
Posts: 720
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Post by ChicagoDave on Dec 16, 2016 14:14:53 GMT -5
Kosher salt is about 20 grams per tablespoon. Thumler says their barrels are about 1.3 gallons, which is about 5 liters. So to change the freeze point of that amount of water to -2C (or about 28F), you would add about 1 cup of salt. Of course that assumes no rock and grit. So I would suggest adding 1/3 cup of salt to your barrel and see if that helps.
Or wait until spring!
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dottyt
spending too much on rocks
Member since July 2016
Posts: 305
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Post by dottyt on Dec 16, 2016 14:31:03 GMT -5
There you go. Everything you need to figure out how much salt you need! Glad I am no longer in school and not in a cold climate therefore I no longer have to figure such stuff out. Yeah! I think I'll just wait for spring. Since this effect will start maxing out, and since the most you can do will be a saturated solution, you could just make a saturated solution. (Put in all the salt that will dissolve.) Since I think they sell big bags of salt in a lot of areas where it snows for the roads, the salt should be fairly inexpensive.
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