jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 11, 2017 7:53:40 GMT -5
Pads appear to be a 'no-go' in the rotary. Not in 1/6 pieces anyway. First impression.
Rocks are too smooth. Looks like a 220 finish. Typical finish after 3 days in rotary with starting charge of SiC 30 w/clay. Smooth is bad. Rocks being cut with 30 grit should have a rough surface. Smooth = no cutting. Dang it.
My theory judging from the pitting caused by coarse SiC is that the cutting is done by grit rolling between the rocks as the rocks roll. Not sliding cuts, but pitting cutting. As the sharp SiC particles roll between the rocks like tiny sharp ball bearings by the thousands. For this (theoretical opinion) I was not surprised the 1/6 pieces failed.
Findings were great:
1) The diamonds DO NOT get dull by the forces in a rotary in 3 days time at 55 RPM with(violent) 60-70% rock fill. 2) The diamonds are EXPOSED perfectly well in the plastic matrix due to tumbling action. 3) The diamonds ARE NOT jarred out of the plastic matrix due to the tumbling action.
So these findings are important. Loose sharp diamonds would likely last a long time in a rotary. Maybe forever. They would likely be totally effective loose just as SiC in a rotary. Except they would cut constantly at full size and full sharpness.
Adjustments:
Definitely cut pads into smallest blocks. Better if they were small round balls so as to roll between the rocks like loose grit does. Ball bearing effect. Run loose diamonds in a rotary. Hands down, probably best scenario. But recapturing the expensive rascals would have to be addressed.
Next experiment is using the 1/6 pads in the vibe:
Vibes have a reversing motion. Thousands of short reversals causing a scrubbing action. Media will cut larger objects in a vibe. Ceramic media impregnated with SIC is used in vibratory industrial applications to remove material fast. Same concept. You can run the vibe much wetter since the grit is contained in the pads and is not going to wash down to the bottom of the hopper. Wetter to help carry(wanted) rapid mud development. Hopefully the plastic matrix will hold the diamonds and the diamonds will stay sharp in the vibe. Vibes flat out tear up abrasives.
Vibe experiment:
I have a Vibrasonic vibe with a thick tough polyurethane liner. A few hours with diamond pads should not damage it much. I will put 30 1/6 30 grit pads in vibe with balance of rocks till full. Add clean water till ~1/4 full from bottom. Add a couple tablespoons Borax for cutting agent. If rapid cutting is taking place the water should get dirty quickly. Simple as that.
I siphon my vibe with a 5/8" garden hose into a bucket while running when doing a clean out. The bucket catches the smalls that get sucked through the hose. I add water as the hose siphons. Removing the slurry and replacing it with clean water. Same method would be used if mud develops quickly.
If above mentioned method works, a piece of inner tube rubber would be laid in the vibe to protect the hopper. Lay sheet of inner tube in, fill with rocks and diamond pads, turn it on. Weight of rocks should keep rubber packed against hopper. To make this feasible, the rocks would have to be shaped quickly. Don't like running a vibe full time. Wouldn't like siphoning mud out daily.
It would be possible to have a drain set 1/4 above bottom of hopper and add full time drip. To continually thin a quickly building mud slurry. hmmm
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Feb 11, 2017 8:10:25 GMT -5
Pads look great. Note protruding 30 grit diamonds. Perfect. Whiter pad to far left is a 100 grit pad. Three to right are 30 grit. Diamonds dead sharp. 10 year old dry rotted 50 grit pad. Note diamonds all got jarred loose. No surprise, I could pick them out of the plastic with my fingernails. Older pads used a softer rubber compound. New 3mm pads in much harder plastic. The new 10mm concrete pads seem to be bound in very hard fiberglass type resin. Very hard, they clank when tapped together. Virgin hammer broken rocks look like 3 days in SiC 30 with clay. Slight wear and smooth. No effect from diamonds. Not good.
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Wooferhound
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Lortone QT66 and 3A
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Post by Wooferhound on Feb 11, 2017 8:55:52 GMT -5
I think it would work much better if broken up into the individual squares seen on the pads because they can get between the rocks and roll with them. I feel that the flat pads are skating across the Top of the tumbling rock slide inside the barrel, or getting stuck to the flat sides on the barrel ends.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 11, 2017 9:24:12 GMT -5
I think it would work much better if broken up into the individual squares seen on the pads because they can get between the rocks and roll with them. I feel that the flat pads are skating across the Top of the tumbling rock slide inside the barrel, or getting stuck to the flat sides on the barrel ends. They are well distributed woofer. I stopped the barrel several times and carefully unstacked the rocks and the pads. Checking distribution. No problem there. Left of barrel to right. Top of barrel to bottom. Cutting in a rotary IMO: "My theory judging from the pitting caused by coarse SiC is that the cutting is done by grit rolling between the rocks as the rocks roll. Not sliding cuts, but pitting cutting. As the sharp SiC particles roll between the rocks like tiny sharp ball bearings by the thousands. For this (theoretical opinion) I was not surprised the 1/6 pieces failed." woofer, if the pads could be cut up into 1/4" balls(size an example, for ball bearing action) I think good results would be obtained. Close up of a course tumbled surface. It is pitted and not scratched. = sharp grit rolling between rocks. material is removed by gouging.
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Post by MrMike on Feb 11, 2017 9:29:19 GMT -5
jamesp, &@-?#!!!. Had high hopes for this. So how many carats of diamonds do you have? Remove the diamonds from the plastic/resin?
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Post by HankRocks on Feb 11, 2017 9:37:58 GMT -5
It would seem that the SiC particles have many more contacts per revolution of the tumbler that the diamonds on the pad. The padded diamonds have to line up just right with the rock to do any cutting where the SiC particle may even roll between the rocks to increase it's cutting(contact) time. Suspect that if you used loose diamonds then the cutting would accelerate. So now all you have to do is find diamond Grit!! That shouldn't be too expensive!
Suspect that smaller pads will help increase the contact time.
That or if you had some tiny spheres of plastic with embedded diamonds, that might get you even further down the road.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 11, 2017 9:41:33 GMT -5
jamesp, &@-?#!!!. Had high hopes for this. So how many carats of diamonds do you have? Remove the diamonds from the plastic/resin? Will try the vibe experiment and the cutting of the pads into little chunks for the rotary. Fight not over, just starting(you know southern boys). Thanks for sharing the grief. Gonna melt one of the 30 grit pads and check amount of diamonds recovered. No doubt, must know. May be cheaper to buy loose sharp 30 grit diamonds. You would think. Something is telling me the vibe is going to shred rocks with these pads. Just hate running a vibe a lot. May be a situation where you could make a vibe that runs much slower and more reliable/passive.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 11, 2017 9:43:47 GMT -5
It would seem that the SiC particles have many more contacts per revolution of the tumbler that the diamonds on the pad. The padded diamonds have to line up just right with the rock to do any cutting where the SiC particle may even roll between the rocks to increase it's cutting(contact) time. Suspect that if you used loose diamonds then the cutting would accelerate. So now all you have to do is find diamond Grit!! That shouldn't be too expensive! Suspect that smaller pads will help increase the contact time. That or if you had some tiny spheres of plastic with embedded diamonds, that might get you even further down the road. No doubt Henry. Thousands of grit particles loose rolling between the rocks. Much more surface area being abraded. Agreed, diamond grit for the rotary is the way.
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Post by wigglinrocks on Feb 11, 2017 10:01:05 GMT -5
Had high hopes , still do , for this experiment . I too feel the pad size makes a difference , smaller would likely be better . Like walking in the snow , regular boots sink in , put snowshoes on and you don't cut in . I think maybe the bigger pads are providing a cushion effect .
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Wooferhound
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Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
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Post by Wooferhound on Feb 11, 2017 10:03:18 GMT -5
It's like Plastic Beads with Diamonds in them.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 11, 2017 10:23:47 GMT -5
It's like Plastic Beads with Diamonds in them. YES. Perfect. where are they ?
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Feb 11, 2017 10:25:01 GMT -5
Had high hopes , still do , for this experiment . I too feel the pad size makes a difference , smaller would likely be better . Like walking in the snow , regular boots sink in , put snowshoes on and you don't cut in . I think maybe the bigger pads are providing a cushion effect . agreed wigglin, in this case smaller better. again, thanks sharing in the grief
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Post by HankRocks on Feb 11, 2017 13:38:28 GMT -5
Would agree that the Vibe will probably do better than the rotary as the rock will probably contact the diamond just a bit longer. During the contact instant it will probably move 2 or 3 times across the contact zone with the rock before moving on. Or at least that sounds good in theory!
I am just happy with the use of Slurry. Just ran a load of Arkansas Quartz through 46/70 for 10 days, 3 re-charges with no plastic pellets. Almost no frosting. In the past with no slurry they would have had a decent amount of frosting even with the use of plastic pellets. I will use the pellets in the 220. Pellets and slurry should do well.
H
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Post by captbob on Feb 11, 2017 13:56:30 GMT -5
It's like Plastic Beads with Diamonds in them. YES. Perfect. where are they ? Wonder if you could make 'em. Kinda like snowball Christmas cookies. Make your "ball" and roll 'em in diamond grit. (that oughta keep him busy for a couple hours!)
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unclesoska
freely admits to licking rocks
All those jade boulders tossed in search of gold!
Member since February 2011
Posts: 934
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Post by unclesoska on Feb 11, 2017 14:42:00 GMT -5
I could be wrong about this, but don't diamonds burn? Pyrolysis might not produce desired results w/ diamond. Perhaps a crockpot? Or a solvent bath? Just spit-ballin' here.
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Post by toiv0 on Feb 11, 2017 17:26:08 GMT -5
I could be wrong about this, but don't diamonds burn? Pyrolysis might not produce desired results w/ diamond. Perhaps a crockpot? Or a solvent bath? Just spit-ballin' here. You can retip diamond and saphire rings without removing the stone. Diamonds won't melt under normal pressure and they will burn but not unless its in a pure oxygen atmosphere and a torch. When you tip a saphire or diamond they can turn crazy green then go back to natural as they cool, you have to make sure there is no carbon or cracks and clean all the oils off of them.
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Post by toiv0 on Feb 11, 2017 17:28:16 GMT -5
I say take a torch to one of the squares to see if you can recover the diamonds.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 12, 2017 5:43:04 GMT -5
I say take a torch to one of the squares to see if you can recover the diamonds. I figured diamond would take heat seeing that they melt metal sintering and mix diamonds with it. I ordered a single pad with large 10 grit diamonds. I will attempt recovery on it with a torch.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 12, 2017 5:53:51 GMT -5
Would agree that the Vibe will probably do better than the rotary as the rock will probably contact the diamond just a bit longer. During the contact instant it will probably move 2 or 3 times across the contact zone with the rock before moving on. Or at least that sounds good in theory! I am just happy with the use of Slurry. Just ran a load of Arkansas Quartz through 46/70 for 10 days, 3 re-charges with no plastic pellets. Almost no frosting. In the past with no slurry they would have had a decent amount of frosting even with the use of plastic pellets. I will use the pellets in the 220. Pellets and slurry should do well. H Slurry works. Makes rocks drag harder against each other. Can offer 100% protection. Padding with plastics impedes grind. Granted it offers padding but at a cost. The clay/kitty litter is great for coarse grind, but may have silica in it and impede polish. I always thickened the 220-500-14,000 steps with sugar in the finish steps of rotary. Switched to vibe for finish steps. Used too much sugar in rotary. Purchased sugar in 25 pound bags.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 12, 2017 5:59:40 GMT -5
Will unload barrel with diamond pads today. Wash the whole load well and put it in the vibe. Add a few polished tumbles. Turn it on and see how fast it removes the polish.
Bet it won't take long.
The polished rocks will tell quickly what the diamonds are doing to them.
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