Let's talk faceting machines

No problem with buying a used machine if you're mechanical enough to know whether it's "straight" and accurate. Faceting machines are like used cars: some have been abused while others are pampered and put in the garage every night. You have to be able to tell the difference with faceting machines. I'd insist on a hands-on inspection of any used machine plus the chance to cut a few stones on it before parting with my cash.

As to which brand is best, that's a never-ending argument. Award-winning stones have been cut on all sorts of machines and each one has its advocates. If you plan to cut commercially I'd recommend buying new and getting the top machine of whatever brand choose. Dealer support can be important in maintaining heavily-used machines. If you're a hobbyist you can cut excellent stones on all the machines you mentioned as well as several others. I realize this is basically a non-answer but these are things to be considered. In the final analysis, the cutter is just as important as the machine IMO, maybe more so. 

Either of the two machines you mention would be wonderful; if you have that kind of cash. I went the used route paying $500 for a perfect Graves Mark IV. It is not fancy but it cuts great stones. So it works for my needs. The problem is not finding a machine, the problem is the cost of rough material. I don't find cutting synthetic material very rewarding, and the real stuff is going to be expensive for very small pieces. Faceting is relatively simple, and a lot of fun, but I have had to slow down because of the cost of rough. Just something to keep in mind. Your first few stones will take awhile, but you get faster with practice. I am a retired drag racer, who would love to get back at it. Have been to Route 66 Raceway many times. Coolest track in the NHRA.

TW

I buy and sell old collections. And have bought and sold literally scores of various brands and models of used faceting machines (though the vast majority have been Ultra Tec and Raytech-Shaw machines) and have never had a customer complain about a machine they purchased from me. If they had a problem they never let me know about it. And most all were sold online. So yeah, I suspect a lot of the folks warning against buying used machines on the net are dealer reps of new machines. Or well meaning individuals who are just echoing what they've been hearing the dealer reps say.

Questions on buying a first machine (new v.s. used, and brand choices) come up fairly often on the boards, so I've been meaning to sit down and write out my thoughts on the subject based on my dealings with used machines. It would take more time and space than is practical to do a thorough job of here but I'll try to offer some help.

If going the used route just use good common sense. Does the machine appear to be well cared for? Look for wear in the most obvious places. Is the person selling the machine a faceter or are they just someone who is selling inherited equipment or is a general merchandise reseller with no knowledge of faceting. If either of the later two they will be less likely to be able to answer questions accurately or make sound judgments about condition even if they are honestly trying to. So adjust your spending limit to risk ratio accordingly. Another consideration is whether or not the company that made the machine is still in business. If not, specialty parts may be hard to come by if needed.

Now as for choosing a brand or model. A skilled faceter can cut a great stone on most any machine. But the more accurate the machine, the better the repeatability and the faster that great stone can be cut. Repeatability is the machines ability to repeat like-facets in the same row without having to keep pausing to visually inspect each facet. That time spent visually inspecting each facet translates into labor $ lost. So anyone who plans to cut professionally needs a machine with very good repeatability.

IMO the three U.S. made brands of machines with the best repeatability are Fac-ette, Ultra-Tec and Poly-Metric (the Sintillator "88" model).

The shop in North Carolina that made the Fac-ette Gem Master II machines closed down in 2012. And a man named Wyatt Yeagar bought the rights to manufacture that design. I am not sure if Wyatt has ever gotten them fully back into production or not. Wyatt does have a web site up (http://www.precisionfaceting.com/ ) where he sales Fac-ette index gears, transfer jigs, and keyed dops plus offers a recalibration service which is performed by Cindy Hines. Cindy Hines is the same lady who did the machine calibrations for the Gem Master II machines back when they were still in production in eastern North Carolina. Also Wyatt does have Fac-ette machines pictured on his site but I have never seen one of his machines in person nor spoken with anyone who has. So am unsure of the current state/quality of any new Fac-ette machines if they are even in production yet. But the original Gem Master machines (made in Washington State and known as the "Seattle" Gem Master) and the Gem Master II machines were top notch.

When buying a used Gem Master the most serious factors of value are whether the EMS meter is present and working properly. And whether the strain gauge on the protractor is working properly. I beleive that the company that made the EMS meters for Fac-ette is still in business in Georgia and will service the meters but it won't likely be cheap to do so. And if the strain gauge is damaged or not working correctly then as far as I know those are irreplaceable. And the EMS meter doesn't work without the strain gauge. So if either/both are not functioning properly, or function is unknown when buying, then be very careful. The value of the machine will be seriously affected.

The Ultra-Tec machines have been around for decades and have gone through a few design changes. The original Ultra-Tec machines were made by Stanely Co.. The original version and then soon after the V2 model. Instead of having keyed dops the Stanley models had a removable dop chuck which was keyed. At least three different styles of dop chucks were utilized during various time periods. None of these dop chucks are still available new. But there are still a lot of the old Stanley Ultra-Tec dop chucks around that turn up for sale. If my memory serves me correctly, Stanley sold the rights to make the Ultra-Tec V2 machines to the current owners around the early 1990s. The new manufacturers made a few changes, including redesigning the quill and chuck to utilize keyed dops, but still called it the V2 model. The V2 model was manufactured up until just a couple of years ago. A few years before they stopped making the analogue V2 machines they did introduce an optional digital readout gauge. Production of the V2 ended shortly after the digital V5 model was introduced. I have not cut on a V5 yet but have heard only good reviews from those who have. Also I feel that I should add that I've had mixed experiences with Ultra Tec's customer service.

The Poly-Metric machines are made by Zane Hoffman. Zane is the son of the man who used to make the Prismatic brand of machines. The Poly-Metric digital Sintillator "88" machine is the only model of Poly-Metric machines that I have owned. And although the design seems a little unconventional, it is a very well made machine with very good accuracy and which I consider a good buy for the money. I suspect that Zane's other two models of Poly-Metrics are probably good machines for their price ranges as well. Also Zane Hoffman is well known for offering among the best customer service in the industry.

The last I heard Zane Hoffman will service his dad's old line of Prismatic machines. Prismatics in their day were top of the line machines. I've had a couple of models of Zane's dad's Prismatic machines and IMO they had some of the finest finishing and craftsmanship of any machines I've ever seen. Zane's dad was an innovative designer and truly a great machinist/craftsman.

As for the Facetron machines, I've had three of those. They seem to be fairly well made but they are soft-stop machines. And I personally prefer hard-stop machines. I'm afraid that my attention span isn't good enough to cut on soft-stop machines. But this is just a personal preference. I consider Facetron to be a good machine at a fair price. And from my experience with them, and by their reputation, Facetron offers very good customer service.

Raytech-Shaw faceting machines are IMO one of the best designs to learn how to facet on. Because the removable hand piece makes it very easy to inspect the stone while cutting and this helps new cutters get their heads around what is going on with the process. The accuracy is surprisingly good for an unattached handpiece designed machine. But not quite as good as some of the other afore mentioned brands. I have had many Raytech-Shaw machines. They are very popular machines with students and hobbyists. And Rick Scott, who is the man who produces the Raytech-Shaw machines is a great guy who offers good customer service.

I've owned only a few Graves machines. The Mark I and the Mark IV models. I've seen some fine stones cut on these models but still the accuracy on these models isn't that great IMO. So much of the cutting to meet points has to be done visually which takes much longer. Also I do not like that they are not reversible. However, the Graves Mark I & IV model's low price tag do make them accessible entry level machines for someone who wants to get into faceting as a hobby. I have not yet cut a stone on the newer model Graves Mark 5XL so can not speak to the accuracy of that model. Also sadly, Graves has been getting a reputation for very poor customer service.

Omni and Alpha Taurus are two of the U.S. made brands which I have never owned or used. Alpha Taurus is out of business and as far as I know Omni is still in business. I won't comment too much on either of these machines since I have no personal experience with them But would strongly suggest that a potential buyer do extensive research before investing heavily in either.

Imahashi is a Japanese made brand of faceting machine with an unattached headpiece similar to the Raytech-Shaw machine. I've had two or three of these machines and they are built like pieces of armored military equipment. Very good quality. But they only have two speeds (2-step pulley), are not reversible, and use metric 6mm diameter shaft dops. Even though there are a good number of Imahashi machines here in the States, to my knowledge there hasn't been a U.S. distributor here since the 1990s. So any specialty parts have to be ordered from the manufacturer in Japan.

LEE, MDR, American Faceter, Arrow Sapphire, Vargas, Exacta, and Taylor Allen are all machines from days gone by. There were a LOT of LEE, American Faceter, and Arrow Sapphire machines produced so there are still used machines, dops and other used parts to be had for those. But not so much so for the others. While fine stones may still be cut from any of these machines, IMO all are outdated technology and never had the accuracy of some of the better modern machines. Regardless of how great the condition, if selling I would never expect to get over $1k for any one model of these used machines. And in average condition - even less.

I hope this helps. And these are just my opinions and are not intended to offend anyone or belittle their machines. Personally, my very first faceting machine purchase almost thirty years ago was a used early model Arrow Sapphire brand machine that had been Jerry-rigged onto a wooden base to where the laps had to be stacked in order for the dopped stone in the mast to be able to reach the lap. And the platen was not level either so there was a very pronounced wobble in the rotating stacked laps. But the thing still cut fairly decent stones. It just took a very loooooong time to do so.

Larry C.

There's a lot to be said for buying a second hand machine, as long as you go in with your eyes wide open.
Buying from a retiring facetor would be the ideal situation, If you can get Laps, polishing Laps, diamond powders, rough, and who knows what other bits and pieces as part of the deal you can save yourself hundreds of dollars.
When I bought my second hand machine I probably paid a little too much for the machine but then got the same value again or more in bits and pieces just thrown in, they were going around the house gathering rough and display boxes and optivisor, a preformer, dial guage, slitting saw for the machine, wax, glue, dops of every size and shape, tin laps, copper laps, batt laps, ring folders with hundreds of faceting diagrams, the rough was Saphires Zircons Topaz CZ, hundreds of dollars value just in the rough.

QuailRiver, that was a fantastic summary of the machines out there, and the best concise answer I've read. Thanks for taking the time to write it up.

Tommy, could you sticky this thread or Larry's response?

Thanks for all the comments and information, I have a prizmatic matching that I got in a deal with some other equipment, came with Lots of extras and several new laps and lots of rough, can anyone recommend books or websites for instructions on using the machines ?

Thanks Pat, very basic is where I am starting, Finding out I enjoy faceting more than I ever thought I would,

So, what machine do you facet on?
I have a Facetron

Did you buy the machine new or used?
Used, but only lightly used
The seller had a 'genuine reason for sale'; of course anyone could say that. In this case, eye-sight problems meant he could no longer reliably cut.
This is where some dialogue can help with establishing trust. Prior to the sale (ebay) I didn't talk with the owner. I recommend you do.
It turns out they were (earlier) a key player in the UK faceter's guild. That helps with trust.
At the out-set, by all means take their word, but do your own research. The UKFG part was easily checked out and valid.
As a UKFG they either knew what they were doing or they knew how to find out.
My nerves on buying were made worse by the facetting manufacturer's videos stating the unreliability of buying second-hand.
Again, do your research ... I was previously 'watching' another facetor up for auction. The facetor had owned and used it for 2 years they said.
I searched and searched on the model since it was Australian and found posts on a forum that suggested of this 2 years which they did own it, the owner had it working for 6 months...
Trust issue: the seller of the Oz model offered a free half day intro to how to use the machine;
this would demo that the machine was working and also give a newbie (like me) an intro to what they were doing, possibly skipping errors and the cost of those mistakes you have to learn.
Learn them myself, I did! Not that I was foolish to turn down an intro, but I bought a different facetor from a far-flung corner of the country.
The seller was able to produce examples of stones they had cut - however I suggested to myself that the few stones may be the sum total of 6 months cutting
I wondered why they were selling; would I potentially purchase something for a couple of £100 only to wish I had gone in more at the deep end.
I knew that I loved cutting cabs and putting bevelled edgess (/facets) to the stones.
How seriously do you want to play?
Various threads discuss the difficulty of getting rough... a bit like buying a car when oil runs out: will it be useable?
Can I afford the rough or will I have a machine I can't afford to run.
I'll need to practice. How can I do this? By cutting non-facet grade stones.

Have you done any upgrades?
No - it came with a dial gauge fitted by the previous owner. Two camps of thought - either they knew what he was doing or not!
Did they do the job properly or are they selling because it was bodged?
It is fine and post-sales dialog helped calm nerves. For me this was a substantial outlay, not play-money. I can't understate the value of talking.

If you bought used, do you wish you had saved a bit longer and gotten a new machine?
No; I'm glad I my caution about buying second hand was high; it meant I chose a good machine.
My caution about (/against) the strong message not to buy second-hand was right; they have a vested interest in selling a new one!
I was cautious about purchasing and only went with a machine that looked to be in good condition and had either been well maintained or cleaned up well.
It came with all the bits I'd need - keyed dop sticks; bits you don't but help e.g. 10x loupe graduated scale; rough of different qualities and practise material - synthetics
For significant purchases I put 'value' down to cost / quality.
For example my paraglider, I didn't fly for 100 hours, but god it was great when I did. I spent more time sitting on the hill waiting for the wind, but even that had value.
Even not accounting for income, as a hobbyist, working out a cost per hour for using my facetor (even for cabbing), well I couldn't afford to spend so long with a hired tennis court.
With income, have I broken even yet? No but it is surely a matter of time. I tend not to sell my stones; I prefer to set them, but my metalwork needs to catch up with my cutting.

Overall a great buy. No regrets.