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Post by gemkoi on Oct 7, 2006 20:49:46 GMT -5
Thanks for more details Cp. Your points are well noted. But i think its still pushing the fear on that and what really happens in the way of Internet fraud. Its also why i don't sell high-end anything online. Or buy it, common since dictates these things can and do happen. But from buying for over 10 years online, and selling for the past 6-7 years. Ive only experience partial fraud once. And it revolved around a drop shipper. The cases ended for me as the buyer, with item in hand and money back. But it was his fault as the seller for me even having to instigate a claim through paypal. AS far as the delivery confirmation, any seller that offers it as “optional” when selling online is naive. So it no surprise that can happen, it took me only one sale when i first started to wonder how i could prove i shipped it to the buyer via usps. Insurance still wont cover a claim when bought through USPS, as it would if bought through paypal. And if a seller doesn't offer it through paypal, one shouldn't buy from them. And though your point makes since about replacing the bought rock, with a junk rock. and saying the seller sent me whats not paid for. Again, depending on the actual costs. This is a civil matter which can be followed through the proper channels too, if anything. Get the buyers name out there to others so they will be stopped in their tracks and pushed away from being able to buy anything online. I only take this stance because the thread went into what to me is fear mongering. By stating a buyer is not safe unless they use one type of online payment. And from experience and honest truth to god common since. I don't think new buyers to the online market should be in fear of not using what the Internet is becoming more used for. And like anything that attracts a trend, there will be bad apples. But theres always more good apples in that regard, so a buyer should use common since. Just like buying anything from a used dealer, pawn shop, flea market, etc, etc. Basically your methods could prove a one time deal, but only once per seller. Unless you change your shipping address every time you buy. Because if i were to be ripped as you describe can happen. I would most likely lose the first round. But if a purchase is made under a new handle, but same shipping address. To me, as a seller, that buyer would not only get their name plastered by me to other sellers. They would also get plastered to many government lists who watch for these types of fraud actions. Also your point from a seller ripping a buyer off only revolves around check or money order. Which i agree, that an easy way to ripping a buyer off. Though i accept such as a seller, in the years ive been selling, such payments have only gotten fewer, and thats still maybe a dozen a year, tops. So as a buyer, one again should use common since as spacegold notes and if they care about their funds when sending a check or money order. Send it certified. So in the end, yes secured Credit is probably the best way to buy anything. No matter who or were its from. Putting it on the top when it comes to the Internet. The “whats in your wallet” commercials is not only for Internet buying, But buying in general. But if you use paypal as it should. Meaning if you don't have funds in your paypal account, don't buy anything till you put funds in there. Remember paypal is like any bank. Though it needs to be hooked into a physical bank account in order tow rok so you can put fund into your paypal account. Be smart and have physical funds in your paypal account, or use a secured credit card. Because i just cant see a buyer not getting their money back from paypal if they follow the proper channel when fraud occurs. Be proactive and stay on top of it. Thats the most important point im trying to make to any new buyer to the Internet, reading this thread. www.internetfraud.usdoj.gov/ |
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Post by cpdad on Oct 7, 2006 21:10:38 GMT -5
shane....thats another sticking point that a lot of people dont know....funds in your paypal account...or ones funded by an echeck...offer no more protection than a money order or personal check...if you pay me with funds in your account...sorry...you have no recourse....those are just like checks and money orders.
i sure hate ebay and paypal has gone this way....but the scams are moving so rapidly that ebay is falling fast...just because all of the scammers have figured out ways to scam the scammers...it is impossibble to keep up with all of them.
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Post by gemkoi on Oct 7, 2006 21:17:28 GMT -5
How are fund in your paypal account no different that check or money order? What you saying is paypal is not secure and people shouldnt use it? Well, wouldnt that still put the burden on paypal for defruading the user? That makes no sence.
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Post by Bikerrandy on Oct 7, 2006 21:17:55 GMT -5
This has little to do with the topic, but someone tried to scam me out of my yellow 1930 Model A coupe two years ago. I had it on Ebay, and I received a phone call telling me that a tractor trailor would be at my house in three days to pick up my car and the driver would have the check. I told the guy that I was sorry and the car would stay with me until I had the cash in hand. The next morning he called again and said that he could no longer buy the car because his wife just had a heart attack last night. Apparently I'm smart enough to build a car but too stupid to see that coming. I ended up trading the yellow car to a very nice couple for the purple 1930 Chevy
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Post by cpdad on Oct 7, 2006 21:55:40 GMT -5
yep randy...thats another scam going on with ebay...you werent nieve enough to fall for it....but there are so many people that do...it is terribly sad.
shane..yes your paypal balance is no better than a money order or personal check...you have no protection when you use a paypal balance...or e check thru paypal. you have only the protection of your own research....nothing is different.
if you pay me with paypal balance....and i decide to send you junk....sorry you are stuck...you can file with ebay...and pay the deductible...and maybe get some help....but you didnt have a credit card to fall back on.
so ya...balance has no protection
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Post by gemkoi on Oct 8, 2006 0:05:51 GMT -5
If thats the real case Cp, then paypal is defruading its millions of users when they say your funds are secure. Im sorry, but i think either you not telling a complete story, or just way off the ball with this idea of paypal is not secure. Becasue if your funds are not secure, why does paypal give a market interest rate when you keep funds in your account? As well i know paypal protects and keeps your funds secure because recently my mother and sister used funds, that they put into their market account via their phyiscal bank. In which they purchased a Bulldog with. Not through ebay. The Bulldog was never sent, and yes paypal gave them their money back, not the seller when they reported it to paypal. Weather paypal charged that money ($2500) to the seller, or took the lose. Their money was protected and secure, and they did not use a secure credit card. This was at the beggining of the summer, 2006. So i know for a fact paypal is secure and stand by stating one could use it as you state using a secure means of payment.
And when i had the issue with a drop seller, paypal paid me my money back when i reported to them about this sellers fruad. Plain and simple, they protected my money, it was secure, it was not on a credit card, but actauly market funds i had sitting in my account.
Also, one very important thing we not talking about. which should be part of the common sence ideal every buyer must use when buying anything. Does the person your buying from offer a refund? If not, and as a seller you send me junk. Then yes, im at a lost. Even if i report it to paypal in their policy time limit.
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I just wanted to clarify something for discussion sake.
I didn't fully know about my mothers dispute and claim success with paypal until talking about it with her last night because of this discussion. I knew they had the fraud back in June, In which the New jersey police have given them documentation about the person who defrauded them. And after talking with her yesterday about it, she stated paypal wouldn't give her the money back until they had a copy of that documentation. Because of the amount involved.
Also, im not auguring a Secured CC will not work, matter of fact it probably is the best way to buy anything site unseen, weather through the Internet or mail order. So ones funds are secure. I am in stance that its not the only way you can protect your funds when doing the same.
I also have a problem with the idea that Credit period, and would assume any bank who issues a credit card, secure or not will want some sort of proof they are not being defrauded by you the user, when a situation in question happens. As isn't the point of credit to be secure? and having a check card is not secure, though you can use it as a credit card? And isn't most if not all debit cards nowadays, check cards? Well, im sure not all, but a heck of allot. My point is the buyer must be responsible no matter what they do, were and how. And if they do not take the necessary steps to insure their own responsibility as a buyer, by just throwing money around. Then its obvious it wont be secure and they will be defrauded.
So my stance is a secured credit card is not the only way you can protect your money when buying.
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181lizard
Cave Dweller 
Still lurking :)
Member since December 2005
Posts: 2,171
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Post by 181lizard on Oct 8, 2006 14:33:40 GMT -5
Ya'll are...what did Daniel call it? Spiraling into minutia? Shain, if you took what I stated at the beginning of this post as the ONLY OPTION available to pay with on e-bay, that is not what was meant. Go ahead & do business with people in any fashion that makes sense to you. Stand on your head & throw quarters to the person you're buying from if that's what makes you feel like you've had a successful transaction!  ;D My point in bringing this up was... 1 If you choose to do business with people, either in real life or on the internet, be careful. (duh...like we didn't already know that one) 2 lots of people use debit cards. 3 most people are not aware of just how crappy debit cards can be in relation to making purchases with. You do not have the same checks & balances in place in case a purchase goes aw rye that you do with an actual "credit card". In fact...most of the people I deal with at my Pub actually think their debit card IS a credit card and when a problem pops up, they freak...and I DO mean FREAK...out on us. I had another conversation last nite with a customer who did freak out about 2 months ago because of charges that appeared on her debit card after using it at my place. She admitted that it happened again in San Diego when she took people out for dinner. What should have been $180 in debit turned into over $400 because of voided charges that STILL were processed by her bank. 4 As long as you are lucky or wise enough to do business with only ethical people...you probably will never have a problem. BUT... If you become unlucky OR unwise & do end up in a mess, just what recourse do you have with a debit card in either getting product or cash back? Paypal has some procedures in place to assist people. As stated by others here on this thread, __it happens and sometimes Paypal is not successful at resolving issues either. Those people who choose to use credit cards have the ability to cut through ALL the chaff. I won't waste my time, energy or anything else filing claims with 1 or more agencies when all I have to do is file a dispute. Some have said they tried to work it out with sellers for 2 to 4 weeks via e-mails & whatnot, then when issues still hadn't been resolved, they went to e-bay or paypal & filed a claim or report. How long after that were the issues cleared? 2 - 3 or 4 more weeks? I say "Hell NO! The lizard ain't going out that way!"  I choose to skip ALL that energy sucking & go right to my credit card. In some cases, they have actually credited back to accounts as soon as a dispute was filed. I strive to make my life easier. |
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Post by gemkoi on Oct 8, 2006 15:39:41 GMT -5
Point taken guys, i try to be simple and easier too on both ends when using the internet.
Liz, you and Cpdad stated a secure credit card was the Only way one has to keep their funds safe, and why my replies went into what they did. Then sellers gave examples, when the thread was started as i read it, from a buyers perspective.
I guess im just an naive seller/buyer whos been doing this for over 7 years, using common sence. And never having a problem.
I agree debit cards are not safe, that was never my concern in this thread. It was about secure credits being the only way as both you and Cpdad stated.
But guys, i know for a fact what happened to me, and now my mother and sister. My account is a money market and set up as a biuness with paypal. Theirs is not. Paypal did not ask me for proof as they did my mothers situation. But my problem was only $20, but my mothers was $2500!
I justed wanted anyone reading this thread to understand a secure credit is not the only way, the best way, yes. But not the only way.
And as joe public, i question both ends now. Becasue if paypal is not secure, they are defrauding the public and they should know. But i have yet to see or hear that being truth. And if banks issue a "checkcard", which can be used as a creditcard, haveing not only a predefinied credit limit, but access to ones checking account. But is not secure, just becasue it can be used like a debit card. They too are defrauding the public and the public should know more.
One last point and i will shut up in the manner, the seller you show feedback for Dave, shows "private" listings. This is another hole in ebays buying experince. Becasue the only benefit from a private listing, is to the seller. Which puts a buyer at higher risk for being defruaded. Which to me is plain common sence not to buy from such a seller.
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Post by cpdad on Oct 8, 2006 17:16:06 GMT -5
haha...minutia...i aint gonna even look it up..hahahaha...i sure hope no one takes anything i have said as anything but in general terms...heck...thats the way i take all discussion....just light and general....you have to actually tell me...he dude im being serious...for me to take it any other way...hahahahaha.
i still hate paypal..hehehehehe...ok ill give it up...gotta delete the other scams...still bumbed about the end of the race....hahahaha
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Post by gemkoi on Oct 8, 2006 20:50:25 GMT -5
I havent taken anything personal Dave ;D, for sake of open discussion. I was only trying to make my point clear. based on experince myself, and for new buyers to the world of rocks understand like anything, and Liz states, Be smart about it.
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Post by cpdad on Oct 9, 2006 17:17:54 GMT -5
who is dave...and how did he get in this discussion ;D ;D ;D
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oldgrouchy
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since August 2006
Posts: 240
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Post by oldgrouchy on Nov 3, 2006 19:30:32 GMT -5
I only use American Express for ebay/paypal because of a hard lesson. I ordered a piece of equipment and paid with paypal using a visa card. I waited over a week and still no saw. I contacted the seller asking for delivery/shipping information and got NO response. I finally filed a complaint after 2 weeks of no contact and miracles never cease he had shipped the saw the same day I filed a paypal complaint. The machine arrived but the seller had not bothered to remove the oil from the saw and it basically dissolved the box he had "packed" it in. It came to my door in an orange plastic bag with a barely legible label taped to the sack. I immediately contacted the seller and got no response. I contacted DHL and was told since I was NOT the shipper it was not their problem. I tried to go through ebay to solve the problem but the jerkoff never returned a single email. I had filed a complaint with paypal about non-delivery and when I admitted I had received the package although damaged, they CLOSED the complaint. I was told I could not file a second complaint on the same transaction. Ebay said they would do nothing. IF I had used Amex I could have gotten satisfaction by forcing the seller to either refund or replace the heavily damaged unit. A cast aluminum saw body does not ship very well in a plastic bag and it was destroyed. I lost out in every way and the seller got off easy. It will not happen again!
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;D
I choose to skip ALL that energy sucking & go right to my credit card. In some cases, they have actually credited back to accounts as soon as a dispute was filed.
