pizzano
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Post by pizzano on Feb 13, 2018 14:57:05 GMT -5
Noticed awhile back, that a few here were curious about the Lyman vibe tumblers. Just thought I'd add a few "pennies" to the discussion..... First off, I never had previous experience with vibes. As a kid just fooled around with an old homemade rotary my Dad put together. Results were painstaking and a mixed bag of fractured (but somewhat polished) stones.........that was nearly 50yrs ago......lol Things have come a very long way since then. Was looking for a new hobby my wife and I could share, she loves to rock hound and started bugging me about polishing some of the stash she had collected over the years. Anyway, came full circle about a year ago and started doing research. Since I'm an engineering type by trade, collecting data and attention to detail come naturally. Boy did I discover alot of internet misconceptions and hype related to this hobby......lol....no surprise there.....just like darn near everything else posted behind the keyboard applicators. To the subject.....Lyman's Turbo Twin Vibe: The unit comes with two bowls and the standard 1200 size vibe mechanism. Used by many for gun ammo shell casing clean-up (brass, steel, ect.). That's why places like Cabela's, Bass Pro, and a few on-line gun shops carry it for anything between $65.00 to $89.00........actually a good buy considering what one could spend for an equal in size capacity advertised as a "rock" vibe unit. The bowl sizes are a 600 (8") and 1200 (10")......the 600 bowl is the exact type as the Raytech TV-5, holds approx. 4lbs of rock plus media. In fact the Raytech and Lyman are related. The 1200 size bowl is a Layman made 6lb to 7lb with a vented lid. Best used for dry media since it does not seal water tight. I use it for final polish burnishing with med. walnut shell media. My results with agates, jasper, quartz, and alike (MOHS scale btw. 5.5 to 7.5) have been better than expected (for hobby grade material). Having somewhat mastered rotary aspects, I have been quite pleased with using the vibe exclusively for ALL stages of grinding and polishing...! Much faster and much nicer (ice cube like) finishes on almost everything I have thrown at this vibe. The Twin Turbo (using the 600 bowls) one for rough 1st and 2nd stage grinding, as well as 3rd thru 5th stages and another (different 600 bowl) for 6th and 7th stage polishing. Media Stages as follows...: 1st = 60/90 silicon carbide 2nd = 120/220 silicon carbide 3rd = 3F-400 silicon carbide 4th = 600 Graded silicon carbide 5th = 8F-800 silicon carbide 6th = Pre-Polish Alumina powder 7th = Covington Gold Polish #2 I also use ceramic media fillers (sizes based on size of rough) for phases 1 through 5. Plastic beads for phases 6 and 7..........learned this the hard way....! It may seem like a lot of stages, but each stage (2 thru 5) vibes for 48hrs. ea.......I tend to run the 1st stage for as long at as it takes to get fractures, edges, bumps and blemishes removed, recharging after each 24hr cycle. Depending on the rough quality and personal pref.......this can take two to three days and frequent monitoring (about every 3 to 6 hrs.) if possible. The final 6 and 7 stages take approx. 10 to 12 hours each if the previous cycles were succesfull..! It may also seem like a lot of media required for just one 6lb batch of stone......well, having experienced the common rotary 4 stage 5 to 6 week process, the vibe results are a far cry (after 2.5 to 3 weeks) from what I end up after the banging and crashing, fractures and scars the rotary leaves on (hobby) quaility rough, like that one can purchase from The Rock Shed......good stuff but heavily fractured and deep pits due to their crushing process. Also, it should be mentioned that Vibe media, although similar to rotary grinds and polishes work in a completly different manner and, although the same media types can be used in both, Vibes require finer grades after the 3rd (400 grade) rotary method.(Something almost every web site I researched failed to explain or disclose), since the media in the Vibe breaks down and adheres to the rock faster and more evenly. Requiring more finer grades to be applied in order to reduce the previous "rougher" elements to have a more positive effect for the next cycle. Another little detail most Vibe dealers mention... "not to be used with 90/60 grit media".....well, the only reason I can find for that statement is the possible "wear" the bowl may experience over time and the possible "lack of performance" one may experience with rough over the size of 2" in a TV-5. bowl. It may take a little experince to start out with 60/90, but it can be accomplished quite well. I applogize if the tread seems a little long......so I'll sum up....: The Lyman Turbo Twin is a real work hog. Mine has been running continuosly (outside of a few hours of down time) for more than 8 months without any signs of giving up...! And my results have been better than anticipated (for hobby grade material). Keep in mind, three most important aspects. 1) The finished product will only be as good as grade of material you start with. 2) Vibe polishing is not a science. It's more of an art. No two rock batches will perform the same and establishing a slurry takes attention to detail, patients and the proper media. Nothing like a rotary tumbler! 3) Do not get discouraged. It will take practice. A good slurry is critical....not to wet and not to dry. Don't expect a Vibe slurry to be the same consistancy as a rotary, (I did at first and it drove me crazy). I must confess, I had help from the folks at Covington Engineering. they are close to home and those folks know their business.! Anyway, I hope this thread helps......Happy polishing to all...! Here's a couple of decent finished examples (hobby level quality) all vibed cycles 1 thru 7...: Well, will have to resize photos. Photobucket has issues........finally....lol Applogize for the photo quality. Still trying to get the images crisp and focused to reflect the actual polish quality. Seems my digital cameras lack a lux factor....to much light and rock photos distort, to little light and rock polish does not stand out. Attachments:
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Post by Jugglerguy on Feb 15, 2018 21:35:22 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum, Pizzano.
I don't know anything about your particular tumbler, but I do have a vibratory tumbler. Many of us here use Lot-O tumblers. With the Lot-O, it's not necessary to run so many stages. I almost always run my first stage in my rotary tumblers and then finish them in the Lot-O. After they have been well rounded in the rotary, which may take several months, I move to the vibe. Here's my method:
Lot-O holds 4.5 lbs.
2 Tbsp. 220 SC for 2 days 1/2 tsp 500 AO and 1 TBSP borax for 2 days 1/2 tsp 1000 AO and 1 TBSP borax for 2 days 1/2 tsp AO polish from the Rock Shed and 1 TBSP borax for 2 days
I use a mix of small and large ceramics in all stages in the Lot-O. I have never used plastic in the Lot-O.
The 1000 stage can be eliminated if you run the 500 stage for an extra day. I just have had luck with it, so I still include it.
I have run rocks in the Lot-O from beginning to end, but I started with 120/220 grit, not 60/90. I prefer the more rounded, perfect look, so that method is not really for me. My rocks did get nice and shiny though.
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Post by gmitch067 on Feb 15, 2018 22:04:28 GMT -5
Wow! 'Looks like you have the methods down pat. I liked your write-up... most informative, and the pictures were good. Welcome to the Forum pizzano from Northern California! 'Looking forward to viewing your "shinies" in the future.
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pizzano
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
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Post by pizzano on Feb 16, 2018 1:33:44 GMT -5
Wow! 'Looks like you have the methods down pat. I liked your write-up... most informative, and the pictures were good. Welcome to the Forum pizzano from Northern California! 'Looking forward to viewing your "shinies" in the future. Thanks..... As most, who have been at this hobby for awhile discovered, "there's more than one way to peel an onion".... tears and all. I've only been at it for about a year, and learn something new with every batch. I research, verify and experience before I trust, and continue to absorb advise. I have found that there are common "foundation" aspects almost everyone agrees with in this hobby. But once one get's past the basics, it's a mixed bag of ingredients, methods, applications and personal preferences based on individual successes and failures. My little "dissertation" as an example, only reflects what has worked for me with the Lyman vibe. Other's may have found completely different results. Actually, the only reason I even went to that extent was because I found very little information on that vibe related to rock tumbling and the information I did find on vibe "rock" tumbling was "a mixed bag of ingredients, methods, applications and personal preferences based on individual successes and failures".I have gotten some very sound advise from the "experts" at Covington Engineering and have had some success following their lead. Joined this forum to learn even more and "came out of the closet" to share my experiences in the hope that others, like myself, will be able to learn and get up to speed as quickly as I have been able to.............and enjoy the hobby with confidence knowing........... "there's more than one way to peel an onion...tears and all".
As someone here recently reminded......."we really do learn more from our failures rather than our successes', and no two individuals have the same taste or level of patience.........some may find rotary tumbling a batch of Jasper for a number of months to achieve that "perfect" rounded appearance, others may find a 3 to 4 week vibe 7 stage procces more to their liking.......that's what so great about this particular adventure (at least to me)......were free to explore to our hearts desire and have fun in the process.
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Post by gmitch067 on Feb 16, 2018 1:45:41 GMT -5
I have one concern about the Lyman vib... how long the bowl will last for. It looks like the vibe was designed primarily for tumbling brass. You get some real nice results with rocks, but do you notice any pronounced wear and tare caused by the coarser grits?
Glenn
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pizzano
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Post by pizzano on Feb 16, 2018 2:28:09 GMT -5
I have one concern about the Lyman vib... how long the bowl will last for. It looks like the vibe was designed primarily for tumbling brass. You get some real nice results with rocks, but do you notice any pronounced wear and tare caused by the coarser grits? Glenn Hi Glenn.... I have been using the Lyman 8" bowl for all grinds 60/90 thru 8F-800 for about 5 months now. No signs of visible wear yet, just some stains from the different grit cycles. I remove most of that with Comet (suggested by Covington) and rinse and wipe dry very carefully to insure no residue is left behind. Have not had any signs of contamination or rock discoloration either (human eye inspection only).....lol I use the Raytech TV-5 bowl (the exact bowl as Lymans, only a different color) for pre-polish and polishing only. Clean it with stuff like Simple Green. So far still in very good shape. The Raytech bowl runs about $25.00. So if the Lyman bowl craps out, I'll replace it with a Raytech since they are easy to find. Like I stated in a previous thread, Lyman and Raytech are related. One division specializes in firearms products, the other rock tumbling. I occasionaly reload, that's how I found out about the Lyman vibe. Should also mention that there have been no signs of grit being embedded in Lyman bowl.....was worried about that when I started getting stains........the Comet cleans up pretty well.
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nchillbilly
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2018
Posts: 212
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Post by nchillbilly on Mar 9, 2018 10:41:43 GMT -5
Looks like you've got your vibe figured out. I recently came into possession of that very same vibe and decided to give it a go with a batch of serpentinite. What is your secret? I added roughly 2 pounds of rough, which had been previously ground in a rotary. I then added some ceramic media (well worn cylinders and spheres), added water and 120/220 sic. My mix just wants to lazily circulate the bowl, and doesn't seem to be getting much work done. I've added water, I've removed water, I've added media, and I've removed media. I know the load of rock isn't too large, but I'm just not getting the brisk action I feel is necessary. Any advice?
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zarguy
fully equipped rock polisher
Cedar City, Utah - rockhound heaven!
Member since December 2005
Posts: 1,791
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Post by zarguy on Mar 9, 2018 11:52:03 GMT -5
pizzano - Welcome to the forum. I enjoyed your detailed write-up. I'm surprised you're having success with 60/90 in a vibe. I have a Lot-O & have found that wear isn't the issue with 60/90, since the barrel is 1/4" thick rubber, but the grit clumps in one spot & doesn't do its job. So you're not having a clumping of that grit? Lynn
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pizzano
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Post by pizzano on Mar 9, 2018 19:57:34 GMT -5
Looks like you've got your vibe figured out. I recently came into possession of that very same vibe and decided to give it a go with a batch of serpentinite. What is your secret? I added roughly 2 pounds of rough, which had been previously ground in a rotary. I then added some ceramic media (well worn cylinders and spheres), added water and 120/220 sic. My mix just wants to lazily circulate the bowl, and doesn't seem to be getting much work done. I've added water, I've removed water, I've added media, and I've removed media. I know the load of rock isn't too large, but I'm just not getting the brisk action I feel is necessary. Any advice? I have not tumbled Serp in the vibe.......only the common Jasper and Agates (even Bot's)........!
The "rock" bowl that came with the Twin Turbo and the TV-5 bowl (same bowl, different color and thickness) are what I use. I've used every grit type in the Lyman bowl and so far only pre polish and polish in the TV-5 bowl.........
I bought mine new and used it a few times for brass casings.....it was so strong said to myself "why not rocks"...?
There are a few tricks (at least for me) to getting a slurry and proper rotating action with "bowl" vibes.....nothing like the Lot-O's.....
Always fill 3/4 or more full...."dampened" stone and filler material work best at start-up......circulated the stone and filler's a few min's. before adding media.......add media slowly, table spoon at a time.......watch the action, they should start jumping and rotating.....add water, teaspoon at a time, let stones and media circulate a few minutes between water adds......stones and media should not only rotate around the bowl, but also start tumbling toward the center of the bowl, displacing each other threw the rotations.
Each cycle (grit change) will react differently.....never the same even for like stones.........I add a "little" dish soap to smooth out the slurry preventing it from becoming sticky and slowing down the action.........remember, bowl vibe is more of an art rather than a science......no two loads will react the same.
Another thing I've discovered, once you've got the particular cycle humming, every filler media I've tried (ceramic, plastic) regardless of shape or size, will tend to gather to one side of the bowl over time, regardless of grit type or media filler size........my vibe is on an absolutely level surface. I use a "chop stick" to mix the batch up, but within a couple of min's. everything settles again to one side or the other......even rotated the bowl 90*, 108*, no change. Still haven't figured out why this happens, but the stones still circulate through the media and back around.......and no visible damage to the product.
Just be patient, check the load every couple of hours after start-up, add water or media to get action, to much of either will cause stones to just circulate around the bowl and not tumble through each other.......I've started over on more than one bowl because I "over-did" either water of grit expecting something to happen "right-now"........it takes time and practice to recognize the proper slurry development....!
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pizzano
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Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
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Post by pizzano on Mar 9, 2018 20:12:47 GMT -5
pizzano - Welcome to the forum. I enjoyed your detailed write-up. I'm surprised you're having success with 60/90 in a vibe. I have a Lot-O & have found that wear isn't the issue with 60/90, since the barrel is 1/4" thick rubber, but the grit clumps in one spot & doesn't do its job. So you're not having a clumping of that grit? Lynn I have found that vibe tumbling in a "bowl" application is nothing like what a Lot-O gives you.........someday I will purchase a Lot-O since bowl action takes a lot of attention and oversight to develop a proper slurry.....but once accomplished, my experience with "bowls" has been rewarding.
The only draw-back I have found with "bowls" is that they stain and wear over time.........never had a situation were any type of grit has "clumped" in one spot, just the opposite, grit to loosely distributed thru-out and not clinging to all of the stones evenly........that can be remedied by closely monitoring the first few hours of the new cycle and paying attention the the amounts of media and water added.
I have buddy who owns the dual barrel Lot-O and loves it.......much faster than my bowl vibe........and he cycles every type of media through his. But prefers very round stones and uses rotary for the first stage rough cycles....I'm starting to do that as well, since 60/90 beats the heck out of my bowls.....lol
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nchillbilly
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2018
Posts: 212
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Post by nchillbilly on Mar 9, 2018 21:16:35 GMT -5
Thanks for the tips, Pizzano. I've been toying around with this thing off and on last night and this evening, and I think I'm starting to figure this thing out. It did require a complete clean-out and start over, but I'll stick with it. Thanks again.
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pizzano
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
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Post by pizzano on Mar 11, 2018 11:00:04 GMT -5
Here's an up-date......
I have had the Lyman Turbo Twin since May 18, 2017........she's still running strong, noticed vibe action seemed to be weaker than normal yesterday, tightened a few bolts here and there and now strong as ever.........but, I've worn out the 8" bowl it came with. Developed a leak along the seam where the wall meets floor of the bowl......certainly the weak point of this bowl. Noticed early on that the bowl was not quite as heavy or thick as the Raytech TV-5 bowl.....but it served it's purpose. More than likely the 60/90 grit took it's toll on it.
Have ordered two more TV-5 bowls.....the one I have now works great but has only been used for pre and polish stages........anyway, in the future I will be rotary tumbling all 60/90 (longer) and use the bowl vibe for everything else........as I stated in the 1st post of this thread (not a retract), 60/90 works fine in the bowl vibe, but it plays hell on the plastic surface.......10 months of use is really not an economical solution....!
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nchillbilly
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2018
Posts: 212
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Post by nchillbilly on Mar 13, 2018 17:59:58 GMT -5
Another question about the lyman. Have you had any issues with slurry leaking from the interface between the bowl and lid? If so, have you solved them. I'm thinking I need to get some thin rubber or cork and cut a gasket and glue it to the bottom of the lid. Or, do I need to thicken the slurry? I'm getting real good action now, but it slings slurry onto the bottom of the lid, where it collects and then runs down to the bowl lip and runs out.
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pizzano
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2018
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Post by pizzano on Mar 13, 2018 18:46:47 GMT -5
Yes, with the Lyman bowl a couple of times, only with the finer grits (600-800)......never the TV-5 bowls. If you are getting the kind of vibe action mine gives, thickening the slurry will help a lot. It will still collect condensation on the lid, but it won't run down to the bowl lip. Also, make sure you have tightened the lid down real well. I turn the screw/nut down as tight as I can get it. The lid will flex a little, so don't worry about it collapsing......after you get the feel for slurry development, do yourself a favor. Spend the $25 bucks and purchase a Raytech TV-5 bowl.....it makes a big difference with slurry and tumble action, due to it being heavier and thicker material......the Lyman will thank you.....lol
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nchillbilly
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2018
Posts: 212
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Post by nchillbilly on Mar 13, 2018 21:41:12 GMT -5
Yes, with the Lyman bowl a couple of times, only with the finer grits (600-800)......never the TV-5 bowls. If you are getting the kind of vibe action mine gives, thickening the slurry will help a lot. It will still collect condensation on the lid, but it won't run down to the bowl lip. Also, make sure you have tightened the lid down real well. I turn the screw/nut down as tight as I can get it. The lid will flex a little, so don't worry about it collapsing......after you get the feel for slurry development, do yourself a favor. Spend the $25 bucks and purchase a Raytech TV-5 bowl.....it makes a big difference with slurry and tumble action, due to it being heavier and thicker material......the Lyman will thank you.....lol After spending a little (actually a lot) of time experimenting with the vibe, I'm getting what I feel is exceptional action. One of the things that has me a little confused though, is that everything I've read says to run the bowl near 75% full for best action, but if I load anywhere near 50% it actually slows down. Adding more media just makes it worse. I'm currently running probably 35-40% full and it's running lights out. I've got about 1.75lbs of rock with a media mix made up predominately of 4mm ceramic spheres with some 2mm spheres and well worn cylinders, 4 oz water and 2 tbsp of 1000 a/o. Stupid question. Is there such a thing as too much action? I'm currently running some very soft rock (serpentinite) and want to finish some amethyst and mahogany obsidian later. I tried finishing the amethyst in a rotary and bruised the daylights out of it, so I'd rather not have that happen again. Thanks again for all the help.
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pizzano
Cave Dweller
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Post by pizzano on Mar 13, 2018 22:14:47 GMT -5
Good to hear success......I've had the best results with 3/4 to full bowls, mixed media sizes and good slurry build-up.
It's only been my experience with the Lyman (never owned any other vibe, but friends have various brands), that the stone circulation is dependent on the type of stone, size of stone, condition of rough, size of media and slurry thickness. Any combination of those will dictate the amount of action......no two bowls I've ever put together reacted the same until about the 6th hour.
As for "to much action"......with bowl vibes, nothing stands still or remains in one place for too long. The action (impact) is not as forceful as rotary and the "turbo" effect rotates the material in both vertical and horizontal directions......providing a "chatter" effect rather than a banging effect on the stones........That is a good thing and also why vibe stones do not "round-out" like rotary.
I'd only worry about the lack of circulation in the event the slurry dries out or gets to thick. To wet will only end up with stones floating around in a circle...... to dry and you will have stones standing still clattering together....not a good thing. Also,get acquainted with the different sounds the beast makes. It will let you know when it's time to "feed" it. Don't wait to long, the more noise, the more beating the stones are taking.
Now, that brings up another point, softer material, Mohs 6 and under, require more cushion in every stage of development. Thus the use of light ceramics during grinds and plastic beads, pellets, pyramids during polishing stages........I use all types of plastics for polishing everything, regardless of Mohs.
Hope this helps......!
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nchillbilly
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2018
Posts: 212
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Post by nchillbilly on Mar 16, 2018 15:07:20 GMT -5
Good to hear success......I've had the best results with 3/4 to full bowls, mixed media sizes and good slurry build-up. It's only been my experience with the Lyman (never owned any other vibe, but friends have various brands), that the stone circulation is dependent on the type of stone, size of stone, condition of rough, size of media and slurry thickness. Any combination of those will dictate the amount of action......no two bowls I've ever put together reacted the same until about the 6th hour. As for "to much action"......with bowl vibes, nothing stands still or remains in one place for too long. The action (impact) is not as forceful as rotary and the "turbo" effect rotates the material in both vertical and horizontal directions......providing a "chatter" effect rather than a banging effect on the stones........That is a good thing and also why vibe stones do not "round-out" like rotary. I'd only worry about the lack of circulation in the event the slurry dries out or gets to thick. To wet will only end up with stones floating around in a circle...... to dry and you will have stones standing still clattering together....not a good thing. Also,get acquainted with the different sounds the beast makes. It will let you know when it's time to "feed" it. Don't wait to long, the more noise, the more beating the stones are taking. Now, that brings up another point, softer material, Mohs 6 and under, require more cushion in every stage of development. Thus the use of light ceramics during grinds and plastic beads, pellets, pyramids during polishing stages........I use all types of plastics for polishing everything, regardless of Mohs. Hope this helps......! Thought you might be interested in an update on my continuing education with the lyman vibe. I cleaned out yesterday (3-16) and began my final (hopefully) polish step with the serpentinite. It is my understanding that serp is a relatively soft stone, so I didn't have very high hopes for a great shine. I took one out today and washed it off and dried it and was blown away. It's really looking nice, even after only 1 day in polish. I actually had intended to use tin oxide for the final step, but instead used 14000 a/o from rock shed. I'm really thrilled. I think one more day and they'll be done. I'm not sure, but I feel like adding the 4mm ceramic spheres and letting the stones "swim" has really helped.
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pizzano
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
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Post by pizzano on Mar 16, 2018 17:36:00 GMT -5
Great to hear nc......the "Beast" is doing it's job...!
I haven't worked with many soft materials other than Opal and Calcite.......both took extreme attention and never did polish up in the rotary (my lack of experience). I have not tried either in the "Beast"........been to busy with other material and smiling...!
Post some pic's when you get a chance, I would love to see those results.......and give the "Beast" another feather in it's cap....lol.
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nchillbilly
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2018
Posts: 212
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Post by nchillbilly on Mar 16, 2018 21:07:39 GMT -5
Great to hear nc......the "Beast" is doing it's job...! I haven't worked with many soft materials other than Opal and Calcite.......both took extreme attention and never did polish up in the rotary (my lack of experience). I have not tried either in the "Beast"........been to busy with other material and smiling...! Post some pic's when you get a chance, I would love to see those results.......and give the "Beast" another feather in it's cap....lol. I would love to post some pics, I'm just not sure I'm "techie" enough to figure out how. I'll study on how to post pics. I'm kinda proud so far because I'm far from an old hand at this stuff. Maybe this current batch is working out due to beginner's luck, but I do think a lot has to do with the vibe.
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pizzano
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
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Post by pizzano on Mar 17, 2018 11:59:51 GMT -5
Great to hear nc......the "Beast" is doing it's job...! I haven't worked with many soft materials other than Opal and Calcite.......both took extreme attention and never did polish up in the rotary (my lack of experience). I have not tried either in the "Beast"........been to busy with other material and smiling...! Post some pic's when you get a chance, I would love to see those results.......and give the "Beast" another feather in it's cap....lol. I would love to post some pics, I'm just not sure I'm "techie" enough to figure out how. I'll study on how to post pics. I'm kinda proud so far because I'm far from an old hand at this stuff. Maybe this current batch is working out due to beginner's luck, but I do think a lot has to do with the vibe. I think I can help a little with the photo posting issue.......(Edited) I'll try to PM you with and try to walk you through it........much better than trying here.
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