Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 18:36:53 GMT -5
I bought a National Geographic Professional Rock Tumbler a few months ago - I know not the best, but I didn't want to spend a ton of money when I am starting out.
Trouble is......the rock are going great through the rough grit, the medium grit and the pre-polish stage. The trouble is.......the rock come out of the polish stage with no shine whay-so-ever!
I have 2 barrels - one I use for the rough and medium grit and one for the pre-polish and polish. I use plastic beads as the filler and never them from one section to another. I use fresh ones each time. The barrels and stones are washed, rinsed and washed again before I go onto the next stage. I clean them at least an hour with soap and water in the barrel.
Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong? This has happened for 3 complete cycles and I am getting ready to toss in the towel.
|
|
|
Post by woodman on Feb 19, 2018 18:43:23 GMT -5
I bought a National Geographic Professional Rock Tumbler a few months ago - I know not the best, but I didn't want to spend a ton of money when I am starting out. Trouble is......the rock are going great through the rough grit, the medium grit and the pre-polish stage. The trouble is.......the rock come out of the polish stage with no shine whay-so-ever! I have 2 barrels - one I use for the rough and medium grit and one for the pre-polish and polish. I use plastic beads as the filler and never them from one section to another. I use fresh ones each time. The barrels and stones are washed, rinsed and washed again before I go onto the next stage. I clean them at least an hour with soap and water in the barrel. Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong? This has happened for 3 complete cycles and I am getting ready to toss in the towel. How about a picture of what you are trying to tumble? some rocks will never take a polish.
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Feb 19, 2018 18:55:14 GMT -5
I saw one of your earlier threads (as well as this) and I have a few questions... If I recall correctly, your rocks look pretty well rounded. Are you eliminating cracks/crevasses/voids where grit can be trapped? You're doing all jasper right now, is that right? How thick is your polish slurry, and how much polish are you using? Do you mind detailing your steps in terms of time frame at each stage, including how much you are filling your barrels with rocks and water? Thanks. ETA: Also take a look at this member's journey with the NG tumbler. His initial complaint was "no shine" as well. I didn't reread the entire thread, but I seem to recall he ended up with decent results. See if what he did (or what was suggested to him) helps you at all. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/77361/new-rock-tumblingforum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/78465/shiny-rocks
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 20:27:13 GMT -5
Hello, For those of you who have asked...here are the polishing times that I used: Step 1 - rough grit - manual says 3 - 5 days ...I did 5 Step 2 - medium grit - manual says 6 - 8 days - I did 7 Step 3 - pre-polish - manual says 6 - 8 days on slow - I did 8 on slow Step 4 - polish - manual says 7 - 10 days on slow....I did 10 on slow Here are some photos of my stones that have no polish. Hope they turn out okay to view. As yuo can see...they are nice and smooth...but no shine.
|
|
scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
|
Post by scottyh on Feb 19, 2018 20:32:50 GMT -5
Quick question is that your whole load? If so I think that you will never get a polish. Also at least two of the stones (the middle one and the one at the bottom) look like material that will never shine up.
To start off with you need your barrel at least 70-75% full in order to get enough grinding or polishing action.
Cheers Scott
|
|
|
Post by Jugglerguy on Feb 19, 2018 21:08:46 GMT -5
I agree with everything Scotty said above.
I have a couple observations. First, although I have not been impressed with what I have read about the National Geographic Tumbler, I see no reason why it shouldn’t polish rocks. The times in the directions are way off, but so are the directions for most tumblers. I’d suggest to go for more like ten days to two weeks in all but the first stage. The first stage usually takes way over a month, but your rocks look pretty well rounded, so I don’t think that’s the problem. If you buy another tumbler some day, go for a Lortone. They don’t really cost much more than the National Geographic one and they’ll last for a long time. I bought one for my son in 2012 and it’s been running ever since, with only some minor repairs along the way.
The other thing I wonder about is the speed setting on that machine. Most tumblers are not adjustable and do not need to be. I couldn’t remember what speed my small Lortone is running at, so I just went and measured. The barrel is 4.5 inches in diameter and is turning at 45 rpms. If your barrel is a similar size, it should turn at a similar speed. There is no need for it to turn faster or slower for different grits.
Lastly, I’d only use the extra barrel for polish, not for prepolish. There’s probably no harm done to it, but clean it out really well and keep it for polishing.
I’m really curious about how much you filled the barrel.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 21:26:42 GMT -5
Juggler...no that isn't my full load of rocks.....it was just slightly less than 3/4 full with the rest being small plastic pellets, I fill with water it to just below the level of the material. I add in the packet of polish that I bought. Maybe I should try again with fresh pellets and another round of polish for another week (to make a total of 2 weeks) ?
|
|
|
Post by Jugglerguy on Feb 19, 2018 21:47:55 GMT -5
Juggler...no that isn't my full load of rocks.....it was just slightly less than 3/4 full with the rest being small plastic pellets, I fill with water it to just below the level of the material. I add in the packet of polish that I bought. Maybe I should try again with fresh pellets and another round of polish for another week (to make a total of 2 weeks) ? I’m more of a vibe polisher, although I have successfully tumbled rocks all the way in a rotary tumbler. To me, those don’t look ready for polish, but I think aDave is better suited to advise you where to go from here. He’s a very good rotary tumbler. It does sound like you’re using the correct amount of rocks and water. Do you have any idea how much of each grit is in a package? That’s a two pound barrel you have, isn’t it?
|
|
|
Post by pauls on Feb 19, 2018 21:50:51 GMT -5
Are any of your rocks cracked or broken, broken edges of rocks will remove polish very quickly from same hardness or softer rocks?
|
|
lookatthat
Cave Dweller
Whatever there is to be found.
Member since May 2017
Posts: 1,360
|
Post by lookatthat on Feb 19, 2018 22:30:11 GMT -5
That middle stone looks like a trouble maker. It's got pits in it that could hold grit, and it's going to take a lot more tumbling in medium to make it ready for the later stages. Even then it might not polish up. Is this a stone that came with it or did it get added to take up space?
Have you tried running the polish barrel full with the rocks and a borax solution after polish? Helps take any film off, especially if you have hard water.
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Feb 19, 2018 23:34:55 GMT -5
Rob Jugglerguy , I appreciate the kudos, It means alot coming from a champ. I gottta be honest with you. I am having a hard time figuring why the OP is having problems getting to a satisfactory resolution. I will admit, when I started, I followed the Lortone directions which were pretty much 7 days at each stage. Even back then, however, I was able to get shiny rocks. To the OP, as much as I'd like to be able to help, I don't know how much more I can offer. You're seemingly taking all of the right precautions, so I'm not sure I have an answer for you. For you, I would be looking at contamination. If all is going well, otherwise, I can't see a reason why you can't see a polish...unless the rocks you're tumbling aren't the type that will take a polish. I am not sure if it was in this thread or not, but I asked you some additional questions. I am a rotary tumbler, and I've not yet moved to a vibe. I'll offer my tumbling regimen only in the event it helps you. Keep in mind that my tumblers are larger than yours, and larger tumblers usually have a more significant effect on rocks. This is what I typically do: First stage runs perpetually. I pull rocks when I think they are ready, and I back fill with new rough. Second stage runs for 7 days. Third stage is run for 14 days. That's what I choose to do based upon past experience. Polish is run for three weeks. I use plastic pellets in all stages after the first. I also run Borax stages before and after the polish stage - it is Borax alone and no grit is used. Don't get locked into this here...Borax will NOT polish rocks. It only cleans them up as need be. Thats's my regimen. I'm finishing in rotary barrels that are larger than yours, so we're not speaking apples to apples. You may have to play a bit to get the right combination for things to work out.
|
|
|
Post by spiceman on Feb 20, 2018 1:11:39 GMT -5
I would make sure your adding enough borax. I use it in every stage but the first. I think that's important, for a good shine.
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Feb 20, 2018 12:05:36 GMT -5
Hello, For those of you who have asked...here are the polishing times that I used: Step 1 - rough grit - manual says 3 - 5 days ...I did 5 Step 2 - medium grit - manual says 6 - 8 days - I did 7 Step 3 - pre-polish - manual says 6 - 8 days on slow - I did 8 on slow Step 4 - polish - manual says 7 - 10 days on slow....I did 10 on slow I went back and read through your thread, and I've got an observation or two. First, you questioned in another post if you should just rerun the polish stage. Personally, not knowing what the exact issue is, I'd rerun your steps 2, 3, and 4. If the photos you provided are representative of all your rocks, they are pretty nicely shaped, and there's no real need to run the coarse stage again if you're happy with the shaping. Why run the last three stages? If contamination happens to be your issue from one of the earlier stages, no amount of polish will eliminate the effects of one of the more coarse grits. Sure doing this again adds to the time and more grit used, but just running polish probably won't help. Jugglerguy touched on something that also can be an issue...barrel speed. Like Rob, I don't understand why the instructions have you change speeds. I saw what the instructions said, but I'm not really sure it makes sense or is valid. I don't know of any rotary tumblers (other than yours) that has an adjustable speed. If your barrel is close in diameter to what Rob's is (4.5"), set your tumbler rpms near what his his or just run everything on the "fast" setting. Lastly, if you rerun everything and the results are still the same, consider ordering some rocks like agates or jaspers. They are typically easier to work with, as they are very hard on the Mohs scale and are pretty conducive to taking a polish. If the rocks in your photos shaped that well after only five days, I'm wondering if they are too soft and won't take a polish at all. If I am tumbling agates or jaspers, it usually takes me weeks, if not months, to get rocks that rounded.
|
|
|
Post by fernwood on Feb 20, 2018 12:22:42 GMT -5
I see some granite in there. Yes, they can be trouble, as no matter what stage, portions can break off. Best to stick with stable, harder rocks. Add the Borax, increase tumble time and everything was was said above.
|
|
lookatthat
Cave Dweller
Whatever there is to be found.
Member since May 2017
Posts: 1,360
|
Post by lookatthat on Feb 20, 2018 12:42:00 GMT -5
I'd pull the yellow troublemaker and any more you have like it before continuing. Also, the "egg" below it might be OK, I've had some stones like it that polished well -- and some that didn't. I'd pull that one too. Personally I used borax between every stage.
|
|
|
Post by Jugglerguy on Feb 20, 2018 12:55:20 GMT -5
Hello, For those of you who have asked...here are the polishing times that I used: Step 1 - rough grit - manual says 3 - 5 days ...I did 5 Step 2 - medium grit - manual says 6 - 8 days - I did 7 Step 3 - pre-polish - manual says 6 - 8 days on slow - I did 8 on slow Step 4 - polish - manual says 7 - 10 days on slow....I did 10 on slow I went back and read through your thread, and I've got an observation or two. First, you questioned in another post if you should just rerun the polish stage. Personally, not knowing what the exact issue is, I'd rerun your steps 2, 3, and 4. If the photos you provided are representative of all your rocks, they are pretty nicely shaped, and there's no real need to run the coarse stage again if you're happy with the shaping. Why run the last three stages? If contamination happens to be your issue from one of the earlier stages, no amount of polish will eliminate the effects of one of the more coarse grits. Sure doing this again adds to the time and more grit used, but just running polish probably won't help. Jugglerguy touched on something that also can be an issue...barrel speed. Like Rob, I don't understand why the instructions have you change speeds. I saw what the instructions said, but I'm not really sure it makes sense or is valid. I don't know of any rotary tumblers (other than yours) that has an adjustable speed. If your barrel is close in diameter to what Rob's is (4.5"), set your tumbler rpms near what his his or just run everything on the "fast" setting. Lastly, if you rerun everything and the results are still the same, consider ordering some rocks like agates or jaspers. They are typically easier to work with, as they are very hard on the Mohs scale and are pretty conducive to taking a polish. If the rocks in your photos shaped that well after only five days, I'm wondering if they are too soft and won't take a polish at all. If I am tumbling agates or jaspers, it usually takes me weeks, if not months, to get rocks that rounded. I’m just speculating, but if the barrel speed is too slow, wouldn’t the run times have to increase to get the same amount of grinding? Dave makes a good point about the shaping of your rocks. I’ve never had rocks shape up in just a week or so, other than really soft rocks. Soft rocks are very difficult to polish. What did your rocks look like before you tumbled them? Were they already pretty well rounded or were they angular and sharp? That should give you an idea of how soft they are.
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Feb 20, 2018 13:11:56 GMT -5
I’m just speculating, but if the barrel speed is too slow, wouldn’t the run times have to increase to get the same amount of grinding? Dave makes a good point about the shaping of your rocks. I’ve never had rocks shape up in just a week or so, other than really soft rocks. Soft rocks are very difficult to polish. What did your rocks look like before you tumbled them? Were they already pretty well rounded or were they angular and sharp? That should give you an idea of how soft they are. It may be speculation, but I think you're right on point. Too slow would not be as efficient - much like comparing results between a sanding block and a powered sander...or a rotary vs a vibe tumbler. The instructions said to run the machine on the "slow" setting to improve polishing results. That doesn't really make alot of sense to me, but then again, I don't get out much. If the ad/listing for the tumbler is accurate on the Nat Geo site, it shows a photo of untumbled rough accompanying the tumbler. If that's the case, and the coarse grind time is merely one week for the OP, I'm guessing the rocks are simply too soft to take a good polish.
|
|
ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
|
Post by ingawh on Feb 20, 2018 14:03:15 GMT -5
I use plastic beads as the filler and never them from one section to another. I use fresh ones each time. Welcome, and hang in there! We've all been where you are, but once you get the hang of it, it's really rewarding. I have a question - what percentage of your load is those plastic pellets? I know lots of people use them, but if the ratio is too high, they will actually impede the polish. Part of the cool thing about tumbling, is that the hard rocks are actually helping polish each other. If they never touch, you don't get that action. I never use plastic pellets anymore, though I used to. They were just too much trouble, and I found I actually got a better shine once I got rid of them. I'm not saying to do that right away, as they can be a good safety net, especially at the polish stage, but a good thick polish slurry is what's really effective, as I think others have mentioned. It might be helpful to see then entire load you're trying to polish, including the filler, to see what the ratio is. I'm wondering if an issue might be not having a good balanced load of rocks - some smaller sized ones that help the bigger ones roll, rather than clang together, and actually help with the polishing. People on this board know that I use small quartz, agate, and jasper as filler (literally large-size aquarium gravel). Again - I really do remember the bleak-frustration stage, but don't loose heart - you'll get the feel of it. This group is a great help for that. Best wishes, Inga I went back to my early posts and found some photos that might help explain. Here is my filler: 20150215_155248 by Inga Holmquist, on Flickr When I did a batch of obsidian, here was the proportion - this is an actual finished load of obsidian, showing the filler it went through with. (Granted, obsidian takes more buffering, but you get the idea): Obsidian 2-14-15 by Inga Holmquist, on Flickr
|
|
Fossilman
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,711
|
Post by Fossilman on Feb 20, 2018 16:38:43 GMT -5
Never roll Obsidian with other rocks, unless glass or something to that nature....As said its takes a long time to polish Obsidian... Practice practice practice and many do overs.. Finally you get the hang of it.... I never do as the manuals say, I ask people....Five days in tumble (Rotary),per cycle, isn't enough... DON'T GIVE UP...
|
|
|
Post by taylor on Feb 20, 2018 17:27:57 GMT -5
Lot's of excellent advice already given above. I agree with those recommending the removal of the granite type stones. We significantly improved our results by separating "hard" stones from "soft" stones. The hard stones just beat the snot out of the softer ones. After each grit step we rinse well and inspect each stone. If you can catch a fingernail any place on a stone it does not go on to the next step. Getting a thick slurry is very important. Listen to the barrel on the machine--the stones should be sliding, not dropping.
Happy tumbling!
|
|